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i get that without a bass or piano, you want full chords, and with a bass you want small shell voicings, but what about with a piano and a bass. are you even supposed to comp at all? or do you only comp in the spaces the piano leaves? what are your guys take on it?
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09-03-2010 02:01 AM
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Most pianists are used to filling up the harmonic space they occupy, and not sharing it with guitar. I usually try to find some simple, sparse rhythmic thing that fits in and adds to the tune, and try to stay out of the pianists way. Sometimes you will find a keyboard player that knows how to work in the pocket with a guitar.
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Piano players don't need you to comp for them, and most don't want you to comp for them. It is in their nature to take care of all of that for themselves.
However, if you use your ears and be safe you can comp for Pianists. Basically you want to avoid too many Alterations or Sub chords, you're probably going to step on their toes. You can comp more melodically (Jim Hall w/ Bill Evans, John Abercrombie w/ Andy Leverne) or Rhythmically (Wes Montgomery w/ Wynton Kelly)
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I find it best to use simple devices. If they're using an electric keyboard simply unplugging suffices. If they're using an acoustic piano, I stare at their girlfriend and clean my fingernails with my large knife - they'll start leaving some space eventually.
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Piano players can be difficult to play with, because they're often used to doing it all themselves. When I play with a keyboard guy who clearly doesn't want his toes stepped on, I'll just comp with small voicings focusing on sparse rhythmic accents. (Staring at their girlfriend also sounds like a good idea!)
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I may be in the boat soon, not sure if i should have this keyboard player join band or not
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One tone or maximum two tones (often guidetones) are all I dare to do behind pianists..
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thats not fun
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Hilarious! Thanks!
Originally Posted by 4thstuning
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A, well. finding ways to interact is fun, but you can take the advise of 4thstuning also. That would at least be intense Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
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I work a lot with keyboard players and have determined over the past few years that a keyboard player that has learned to "share" music space with other players is truly rare. Most of them instinctively do not want to play with guitar players who are good at comping. I love the Bill Evans/Jim Hall duo music, they are obviously listening to each other but they are both exceptional musicians.
wiz
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You would be surprised how quick they learn, when they get there fingers trapped in the lid or flight case depending on type.
If that doesnt work use BiaB on mp3 at the next rehersal
Cheers Tom
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Shell voicings work well. After all shell voicings are just the root at the bottom and the 3 and 7 (both minor or major as appropriate) on top. The piano player can play whatever additions he likes. You can leave out the root, since the bass player will take care of that.
I also like to play small chords with 3, 7 and additions in the higher register. However you have to listen really carefully for that and you have to get at least a bit of space to do that.
By the way, I don't see why you would restrict yourself to shell voicings, when playing with just a bass player. I leave out the basses and concentrate on nice voicings in the upper structure of the chords and nice additions, alterations etc., when playing with just a bass player.
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I like to play quartals, both diatonic and pure 4th, when comping with a pianist. If he stays with tertian harmony, even with extentions/alterations, it seems to me that the chords doesn't mix as much as they would otherwise.
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Normally I don't have any problems to play with a piano player. I listen to him a lot, I play most of the time in the middle-high range of the guitar and my way to play is more free to play single lines or octaves, so...I use it a lot. When I notice that the pianist if more quiet I try to introduce "larger" chords with more big strings involved. I also like to surprise them with tensions...especially for the last chord of the song...it's like an eyeblink to make sure they understand that I'm there too...and most of the time it works perfectly. I don't remeber having problems with pianists.
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I think that you NEED to talk to pianist before you go to stage and comp with him at one time, I mean you need to make some "agreement" before comp together, if it's a jam and you have no opportunity to talk to him as for me there is two ways. 1 stay away from comping when he is on. 2 make your volume on 1/3 from him and just play the functions, coz if the start to play substitutions and you will be loud at the same time, you can trap in intervals like minor 2-nd and it will be total lose.
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I enjoy working with pianists. Certianly more than another guitar player. The key is to listen to and understand what he's doing.
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It just occured to me that sometimes it's easier to play with an electronic keyboard player than and acoustic one. They can use tones that don't necessarily occupy the same sonic space as the guitar.
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When there are two chordal instruments... one usually covers the changes and the other usually rhythmically punches. Context usually decides who does what. Most professionals have gone through all the BS already. But if not I always verbally ask how we should cover tune, rhythm section players need to communicate... it's part of our job. There are tons of different techniques which work well together depending on context. As long as you both are aware of the feel or groove( rhythm accent patterns), and leave some space( both not playing), and when you have fun, keep it on the weak side of things... usually it's much better than one or the other... you have so many more options...Best Reg
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At a jam I go to there are sometimes 3 other guitar players. I love them all, but working with other guitar players to create space and room is at least as difficult as working with piano players (in my limited experience).
Since it's a jam, I don't worry about it and just look for a meaningful space. At worst I become like the horns, playing solos and the head, and that's not so bad. If it were a band situation we'd need to talk to see how we can integrate more effectively.
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When I think of just piano-bass-guitar trios, I think it is good to reference the masters and see what they did and draw some inspiration. Here are a couple clips in this format and different comping styles:
Nat King Cole Trio w/ Oscar Moore doing a basic swing style comping
Oscar Peterson Trio w/ Herb Ellis doing the "Bongo Effect"
Tal Farlow Trio w/ Tal doing his brushes effect @ 2:35 (basically turning down volume and muting strings)
Ron Carter Trio w/ Russell Malone doing a mix of swing comping, funky chord accents, and Tal's muted technique
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Hey Gambrosius... nice clips... thanks. Nat's thing was cool... Reg
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