Minor Six Flat Five Chord (Johnny Smith Approach question)

[nomelite]

I'm working on this book and I found out this chord: Major Six Flat Five.
Johnny Smith explains that 'the basic resolution of a major six flat five chord is to a dominant seventh chord 1/2 step lower.'Then he adds 'because of the modal quality of the 6 b5 the progression will resolve to a minor chord (,,,,) In the examples the 6 b5 resolves 1/2 step lower to the closest dominant seventh chord. The dominant seventh would usually resolve then to a IV minor.'

First of all I haven't heard before about this alteration of the major sixth. Second it seems Johnny refers to the harmonic minor scale when he comments that it resolves to a IV minor....but what is the modal quality of the 6 b5 that he mentions? and the resolution to a 1/2 step dominant seventh is a tritone subs?

I will appreciate any feedback. thank you.

EDIT. Im sorry the title said Minor Sixth Flat Five. It should be Major Sixth Flat Five as you noticed.

[Meggy]

Interesting chord! Without really being on very firm ground, I would have thought the modal quality he means might be Lydian, as you can view the b5 as a #4 ie. the 4th tone of the Lydian mode. Why does that mean it can resolve to a minor? - I'm not sure, but I'll have to do some research and find out. Or hopefully someone will tell us!

[GodinFan]

I've never heard that particular name for the chord before, but what he's talking about is an inversion of the m7(b5) chord or m6 chord.

A C Eb G is a root position m7(b5)
C Eb G A is the first inversion aka m6 chord
Eb G A C is the second inversion, which seems to be the one referenced here. I usually think of it as a m7(b5) with the b5 in the bass, rather than spelling it as a root position chord.

[JohnW400]

I've not seen this book but what you are describing is a ii V in a minor key. The ma6 (b5) is really a minor 7th b5 (C6 b5 = F#mi7 b5 / C)

So following your second part this would be F#mi7b5 to a B7

I'm not sure what you mean by the IV minor since you don't mention what the 6th b5 funtions as

[Reg]

He could be simple talking in Harmonic min. bVImaj6, add #11 to V7b9b13 to I-. Those are the natural chords build from H.M. The b5 is actually #11 in the Maj6 chord, or the full chord has, root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, #9, #11, and 13(or6). the choice of note would be voicing and resolution thing. That root motion pattern is standard in jazz and with modal interchange the chords can be anything... Best Reg

[fep]

The b6 in the bass resolving down by a half step to the V chord is pretty common.

The tritone sub of the ii chord creates this bass movement relationship as does the ii half dim chord with the flat 5 in the bass.

In the key of C; Abmaj6b5 is spelled the same as Dm7b5(with the b5 in the bass)

Also the French+6, Italian+6 and Germanr+6 from classical theory have that same bass movement of a b6 resolving a half step down to the dominant.

What they all have in common is they are all predominants. The next chord, the dominant chord in all these cases can resolve either to a major or a minor I chord. (Resolving the V to a IV minor chord as you mentioned would be unusual. Are you sure that's what Johnny Smith says?).

[nomelite]

I'm not sure what you mean by the IV minor since you don't mention what the 6th b5 funtions as

That's why I was scratching my head in guessing what Johnny was referring to.
In google books you could see this section of the book . Page 71.

Mel Bay's Complete Johnny Smith ... - Google Libros

[nomelite]

(Resolving the V to a IV minor chord as you mentioned would be unusual. Are you sure that's what Johnny Smith says?).

He shows this resolution in all 12 keys:
example:
C6 b5 to B7 to E-
F6 b5 to E7 to A-
Bb 6 b5 to A7 to D- and so on.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I think it's simply a typo: "IV minor" should have been written as "I minor". All the examples on p. 71 - 72 are

VImin6b5 V7 Imin

And can I admit that I've never seen a chord called a "minor 6th b5" before. All the example are the same thing, in different keys, and they are all just minor ii-V-i's:

Dmin7b5 : 4x353x
G7 : 3x343x
Cmin: x3554x

I don't see the advantage in calling that first chord "Abmin6b5" other than hinting that the Ab can be the bass note for the Ab->G motion.

[JohnW400]

He shows this resolution in all 12 keys:
example:
C6 b5 to B7 to E-
F6 b5 to E7 to A-
Bb 6 b5 to A7 to D- and so on.

i minor.


I know that long ago a lot of charts used 6th chords instead of minors and half diminished (G6 to A7 to D ex. or Gmi6 A7 to Dmi)

I think naming the F#mi7b5/C as C6 b5 follows this kind of thinking. F#mi7b5 is the same as Ami6 or even now, C6 b5.

Personally, I change the maj 6ths to minor 7ths. But I use either on the mi6.

I don't know if I would use the maj6 b5 though.

[nomelite]

Thanks a lot to you all for your cool input! Geez that IV minor typo really got me insomniac last night!

[Reg]

Context could make last chord any roman numerals. There are differences of implications between -7b5 chords and a sub V or whatever function develops from collection of notes above 1/2 step root motion movement to Dom. chord and on to min chord down a P5th. What are the rest of the notes in each chord, for example; C6b5 B7 E-, I'm only spelling chords as in your example... This is not that tricky, but something that will help make you a much better player by understanding what your playing and where it comes from. A hint would be the spelling of the b5 to start.
One small note, there are tons of misprints and mistakes in print, and even more on the net, don't believe or take as the word of God, information that becomes foundations for your understands of music... without understanding what it is, where it comes from and how it works... Try and go through the process yourself. Best Reg

[Patriots2006]

VImin6b5? Isn't that a diminished 7th chord?
ex. C, Eb, Gb, A.

Or, I could be having a brain fart. Happens quite often at my age!

[Jim Soloway]

Thanks a lot to you all for your cool input! Geez that IV minor typo really got me insomniac last night!

Caused me a lot of confusion reading through the thread too. But thanks for clarifying because once I understood the chord correctly I was able to come up with a convenient fingering and now I'm working on using it in Blue In Green. Very cool chord.

[Joe S.]

I believe that in a major six flat five the root might have been omitted. ie. . C E Gb A [major six, flat five] might very well be a D9th chord with the root "D" omitted . The Gb is the enharmonic of F#. Therefore, the chord might read up as: C E F# A which can be: C=7th, E=9th, F#=3rd and A=5th,. If you play a D in the bass, the chord then becomes: D F# A C and E which is a D9th chord.The normal resolution would go to a Gmajor or G minor [ V9 goes to I]. Many times Freddy Green, Basie's guitar player omitted the root when he played dominant seventh chords. Also, In Arnie Berle'sBook "Jazz and Popular Guitar" on page 70 , in the second inversion of C7th, he leaves out the root. The three note chord for C7 [V7], second inversion can therefore be played G E Bb [the root C is omitted].Usually in a group, the root is played by the bass player.
P.S. I had correspondence with Johnny Smith and he wrote that his book should be used primarily as reference material. It is best to use your ear. If it sounds good, it is good.
Joe S.

[Joe S.]

I'm working on this book and I found out this chord: Major Six Flat Five.
Johnny Smith explains that 'the basic resolution of a major six flat five chord is to a dominant seventh chord 1/2 step lower.'Then he adds 'because of the modal quality of the 6 b5 the progression will resolve to a minor chord (,,,,) In the examples the 6 b5 resolves 1/2 step lower to the closest dominant seventh chord. The dominant seventh would usually resolve then to a IV minor.'

First of all I haven't heard before about this alteration of the major sixth. Second it seems Johnny refers to the harmonic minor scale when he comments that it resolves to a IV minor....but what is the modal quality of the 6 b5 that he mentions? and the resolution to a 1/2 step dominant seventh is a tritone subs?

I will appreciate any feedback. thank you.

EDIT. Im sorry the title said Minor Sixth Flat Five. It should be Major Sixth Flat Five as you noticed.

Hi: I checked this chord out again and I think I know what the root of C E Gb A is and why it goes to B7 [or B]:The chord is an F#[enharmonic change of Gb] half diminished, spelled: F# A C E . F# is the 5th of the note "B". In the Circle of fifth's , "F#" goes to "B".
That's the most logical progression of F#half diminished 7th to B7 [or Bmajor or Bminor ].
Hope this helps. Joe S.

[nomelite]

After the couple of years I saw your reply Joe S thanks a lot! I was scratching my head again!

[jayv999]

I believe that the m6b5 is just another name for a diminished 7th chord.

[monk]

I'm working on this book and I found out this chord: Major Six Flat Five.
Johnny Smith explains that 'the basic resolution of a major six flat five chord is to a dominant seventh chord 1/2 step lower.'Then he adds 'because of the modal quality of the 6 b5 the progression will resolve to a minor chord (,,,,) In the examples the 6 b5 resolves 1/2 step lower to the closest dominant seventh chord. The dominant seventh would usually resolve then to a IV minor.'

First of all I haven't heard before about this alteration of the major sixth. Second it seems Johnny refers to the harmonic minor scale when he comments that it resolves to a IV minor....but what is the modal quality of the 6 b5 that he mentions? and the resolution to a 1/2 step dominant seventh is a tritone subs?

I will appreciate any feedback. thank you.

EDIT. Im sorry the title said Minor Sixth Flat Five. It should be Major Sixth Flat Five as you noticed.

Something you may want to consider about Smith's naming of this chord is that he learned to play at a time when it was conventional to name harmonic function by the bass note rather than as an inversion.

In guitar books from the 30s and 40s, I've seen an Em7b5 with the third in the bass called a Gm6 with instruction to play a resolution in D minor as Gm6-A7-Dm.

Smith explains his concept and rationale for naming chords by the bass note on page 7 of the book.

He begins with this: xx2333 and explains that it could be six different chords depending on the bass note.

The bass notes plus the chord would yield the following:
C=C9
G=Gm6
Gb=Gb7#5b9
Bb=Bb6b5
E=Em7b5 or E half diminished. (He differentiates between the two as having different resolutions).

[nomelite]

Tha's a reaññy good clarification Monk thanks.