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Haven’t seen a thread on this topic, so I figured I’d start one.
I got Foundations I about two weeks ago, which is Thomas Echols’s manual on “polyphony,” by which he means comping, counterpoint, solo playing or anything else with multiple voices. Being somewhat radicalized on Barry Harris, this is based on sixth diminished stuff.
I’m very very fresh to this, but I’ve found it pretty useful so far. The writing is dense and probably would turn most people off, but it can be funny in a weird way too. And I have found it kind of packed with useful ideas for thinking of chord playing generally as more scalar. This is particularly useful for Barry’s stuff, but could be useful for any chord playing with a few tweaks. One thing I’ve appreciated in particular is that I have a hard time varying textures. Meaning essentially that once I start playing with one voicing type, I tend to stay there or have trouble blending in others — say, I start with shells, I have trouble bringing in diads or closer voicings or whatever. I know them really well, it’s just an on-the-fly mental block I’ve struggled with. And the Echols stuff has some really interesting strategies on that.
Ive taken some steps to break it up and make more applicable and manageable for myself, namely:
1. I’m using three note voicings. Drop 3 and especially drop 2 voicings really aggravate my carpal tunnel. So that’s been a bit of a project.
2. trying to work through it using the sequence of movements from Alan Kingstone’s book.
3. trying to actively mix it with the Ed Bickert style voicings I use already. Old dog, new tricks, etc.
4. focusing on stuff more applicable to comping than to the truly polyphonic stuff he includes. Just because that’s more practical in my situation.
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11-30-2024 10:38 AM
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Ime, those points you're working on are great for fluency with this stuff. You should be able to run the same voicing through the systems, but once you can vary them and have command of the melody then it starts to sound more musical. Also don't sleep on 3rds, that's the simplest and easiest voicing that will still imply 6th/dim. It's easier to grab, it changes up the texture, and it gives you a reference to grab voicings with more notes.
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Btw, Echols is now a weekly instructor on Open Studio. You should do pro.
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How much are they paying you?
Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
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Yeah, the hang up on guitar is that it’s such a “shapes” instrument that it can be hard to mix those textures and different voicings. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
Ive done a lot of practicing with the voicings and with thirds and sevenths (C to A, then transposed through) quite a bit and can fly through them in isolation, but mixing them in context is a bit weirder.
Hes got some interesting stuff for that. One was working on one voicing at a time, but also on the component intervals.
So one voicing I use is C G A, transposed through the scale. So you play the third (G to A) through the scale, the fifth (C to G) through the scale, and the seventh (C to A) through the scale too. And then use those to build melodies. Using those component shapes lets you keep that tactile way of navigating and naturally leads to smoother transitions in the textures
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I recommend working on two part counterpoint Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Sounds good. It is easier on piano. I like that shape too. I'm trying to get it worked up in my left hand where 4 note voicings can be excessive. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Why are you the way that you are? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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^ Better get to it.
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You might investigate constructing chord patterns that would serve as "unit subs" for single chords or chord changes - whereby the melody note is maintained through the pattern by voicing to reassign the melody note's interval role within each chord. Sounds complicated but they're not, you've heard these with and without maintaining a melody note; the former are just a little more crafty, especially on guitar. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I say you practice that 3 note voicing and 3rds. Take those and your fluency will boost.
..and join OS Pro.
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This is a little different, where I guess I’ve done a lot of the rote practice, and this format offered some insight into reorganizing things in a way that makes them relate better to one another. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
I say you practice that 3 note voicing and 3rds. Take those and your fluency will boost.
..and join OS Pro.
So I’ve spent a lot of time learning thirds along the various string sets and can play them pretty freely but still never really use them. In the context I mentioned above, for example, I’m really only using the thirds on that B and G string. Because that’s where the third occurs in the voicing. The fifth is on the D and G strings for the same reason.
The thirds are cool, but oddly enough it’s the fifths that I’ve found most useful because of how much of my chord playing is based around shells. Those shells are a fourth or fifth depending on whether the third or the seventh is on top, and the scalar fifths are a perfect fourth or perfect fifth off the 6th chord notes depending on whether the interval crosses that b6 added note. So there’s a lot of motion there that has been opened up.
Still not very good at it, but it’s something I hadn’t considered.
The thirds up top are pretty fluent already but I think I just struggled to use them because of how mobile the top voice is already on the voicings I use. Getting motion in those lower voices made the applications more obvious to me.
I guess I should also say that I use some of these different 6th-diminished devices a bit already when I play solo. Probably just because of how loose I can be with time and musical context. It’s much much harder to find space for them when I’m comping but that’s more what I’m interested in at the moment.
Who knows. I may work on this for six months and have nothing to show for it.
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Yeah no, you don't want to study for 6 months and then have nothing to show for it. Basic principles are you have to start slow and out of time, then move to slow and in time, then to med. I've been working on this for several months and I'm starting to gain some fluency at 120. Other principles are fewer notes are easier. So.. 2 or 3 notes pretty much. 1 note doesn't imply harmony although you can throw in single note during the BH. Do the alternating chords as arpeggios. I'd say you only have to chord with the BH about 1/3 of the time in your playing for it to sound BH and add to the harmonic context. Other tips are don't forget the melody when you're trying to build chordal ideas, makes it much more musical. When people 6th/dim they often only play scalarly.
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I don’t necessarily mean plunging into Fux or whatever (though plenty have done this) or even Partimento. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I just mean if you have trouble mixing up voicing types, it can help to stop thinking about voicing types and grips and just think about the top and bottom. (Soprano and bass as Barry aptly called them.)
For example, block drop 2s are (mostly) parallel tenths. Drop 3s are fifths (mostly) which means we tend to use them different.
Contrary motion is of course a common fixture in Barry harris’s teaching as well. And we also have staggered motion from the borrowings.
You can start to work on two part counterpoint that isn’t simply parallel like what you get when you use only one voicing type.
Once the outside counterpoint is established the inner voices can be populated with other notes. And if something sounds good in two voices it will sound great in three or four.
I also found it much easier to grind through the ‘voicing lists’ you get in the Ben Monder pdf and so on now that I’ve spent a while thinking about the voices first and the chords only secondarily.
Interesting bit of info as well - Barry was moving to three voices more. Three voices is also where I feel the guitar has most flexibility in terms of having some freedom in the inner voices and so on. Four voice playing while good to practice does tend towards homophony on guitar. Three voice is easily developed from two voice.
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Whew I thought I was about to get referred to the study of fugue.
Yeah that makes sense.
Ive done some little contrary motion pairs in the past … like playing third to fifth and fifth to seventh. Or the reverse.
Probably not enough and not really with bigger intervals that I remember
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I’m not so far gone to assume that everyone must share in my Special Interest, although it would be nice to have fellow weirdos. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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So current practice vibe is …
- working with the voicing on 4/3/2 … along with the included intervals. 5th on 4/3, 3rd on 3/2, and 7th on 4/2
- With each of those I’m focusing on the top note and building the voicing around that. So I’m saying the scale degree aloud and then grabbing the chord or interval.
- voiceleading the chords and intervals through some cadences, then coming up with short melodies over the cadences and harmonizing them with combinations of the intervals and whatnot. Trying to transpose those through the scale if I can.
- Then later in the evenings while I’m doing scale work I go through all the voicing types just up and down the scale.
- Mostly one key a day
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Sounds good. That's what I found to work. Plan out what voicings you want to target for how you play. Build facility just running the scale of chords in those voicings. Focus on improving melody. Focus on making different chord patterns. 1 key at a time.
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What’s the end goal? Comping? Block chord soloing? Solo guitar lushness?
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Comping. It’s always easier for me to work new stuff into solo guitar stuff since there are no constraints on time.
I almost never play with a pianist though, so I’m always trying to have more ideas and textures available when I’m comping or soloing with no chording instrument
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Then I shall follow you down this path.
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Blind leading the blind Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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You guys need me to head the BH studies.
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Nobody’s stopping you
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