6th Diminished - Thomas Echols

[pamosmusic]

Re: The shell voicings in the diatonic cycles pdf you shared in this thread: Ed Bickert chords and diatonic cycles

For example: String set 4-3-1 -- chord tones 7-3-1:
Fmaj7: x-x-2-2-x-1 >> G7: x-x-3-4-x-3

If one plays with a pick and/or doesn't have the right hand finger independence of a Lenny Breau (who does?), your voicings are probably the most practical option. If you lower the 2 bottom notes an octave, it becomes difficult to play them and good solo lines simultaneously.

Agreed. I came to the sixth diminished voicings I use by playing a sixth chord in that format and then moving it through the scales. I love those voicings.

Which reminds me, I have a quibble with one of your shell voicings. i.e., the VIIm7(b5) chord, which you voice as D-A-B or A-D-B. This voicing would duplicate the IIm7 voicing in A Major.

I contend that if you omit the b5th, the voicing will not reflect the character of the chord, which is a dim. triad: B-D-F + b7th (A). I would voice it as a Dim. triad and omit the b7th, like so [String set 4-3-2, in C Major]: B dim : x-x-12-10-12-x

Disagree on this one.

I mentioned in the document/thread that everything in the document has the root back on top of the chords, but that’s not how they’re used most often. It’s a pedagogical thing. There are so many synonyms and redundancies in the plain 3-7 shells on the middle strings that it can be really hard to orient yourself, so I have students practice for quite a while with just the root on top. But the idea is to start putting other extensions on top.

So I might play A D B … but I also would be equally or more likely to play A D F … A D E … A D C … A D C#

It depends on the counter melody that’s happening.

But the voiceleading happens on the lower strings. So it’s not A and D because that’s the very best possible way to illustrate a Bm7b5 in isolation, but because it’s the best way to illustrate the movement of that chord to the most likely next chord … E7 … with G# and D on those same strings.

So you get things like

A D F to G# D F … A D B to G# D C … A D C to G# D B … etc

[Mick-7]

Disagree on this one.

I mentioned in the document/thread that everything in the document has the root back on top of the chords, but that’s not how they’re used most often. It’s a pedagogical thing. There are so many synonyms and redundancies in the plain 3-7 shells on the middle strings that it can be really hard to orient yourself, so I have students practice for quite a while with just the root on top. But the idea is to start putting other extensions on top.

So I might play A D B … but I also would be equally or more likely to play A D F … A D E … A D C … A D C#

It depends on the counter melody that’s happening.

But the voiceleading happens on the lower strings. So it’s not A and D because that’s the very best possible way to illustrate a Bm7b5 in isolation, but because it’s the best way to illustrate the movement of that chord to the most likely next chord … E7 … with G# and D on those same strings.

So you get things like

A D F to G# D F … A D B to G# D C … A D C to G# D B … etc

Ah, o.k., that makes sense, I was mixing applications. If I wanted a comp voicing for Bm7b5, I would most likely use the dim. triad rather than the Bm7 shell.

The Lenny Breau challenge would be: you are allowed to use only two notes to represent a chord, there would be instances (progressions) in which the notes A-D would not be my first choice for Bm7b5.

[Mick-7]

Moved this post to: Ed Bickert chords and diatonic cycles

[pcjazz]

The Lenny Breau challenge would be: you are allowed to use only two notes to represent a chord, there would be instances (progressions) in which the notes A-D would not be my first choice for Bm7b5.

Lenny typically used 2-note voicings for dominants but often used 3-note voicings for other chord qualities.

[bediles]

Here's a Lenny Style blues comp for those interested. Wrote in the note names bc who's got time for these ledger lines.

[Mick-7]

The Lenny Breau challenge would be: you are allowed to use only two notes to represent a chord, there would be instances (progressions) in which the notes A-D would not be my first choice for Bm7b5.

Lenny typically used 2-note voicings for dominants but often used 3-note voicings for other chord qualities.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that he plays mostly 2 note chords, I'm just challenging myself to do it.

[Bobby Timmons]

Open Studio Echols class tomorrow morning.

[pamosmusic]

Open Studio Echols class tomorrow morning.

Let us know what you learn

[Christian Miller]

Ah, o.k., that makes sense, I was mixing applications. If I wanted a comp voicing for Bm7b5, I would most likely use the dim. triad rather than the Bm7 shell.

The Lenny Breau challenge would be: you are allowed to use only two notes to represent a chord, there would be instances (progressions) in which the notes A-D would not be my first choice for Bm7b5.

There's traditional ways to voice lead a circle progression, and one way that's been present since at least the 18th century is the root third seventh 'shells'. The choice here is A-D, if we ignore the bass.


This is taken from (Bach Scholar) Derek Remes' Voice Leading Compendium. p37.

(I'm not 100% that Derek knows what Fly Me to the Moon is haha.)

So there's a trad way to do it, and while we might not choose to do it the trad way, it's good to know what that is. (It's also the way I was taught on jazz guitar.)

There's a lot in here, not all relevant to jazz, but quite a lot is
https://derekremes.com/wp-content/up...um_english.pdf

For example, the lament is crazy common in jazz standards.

I'm 100% certain that Barry would have loved this stuff, he was always talking about what Bach would do etc.

'Dropping' voices from chords should always be based on what makes the strongest voice leading. Sometimes that might be the Bo triad. It really depends on the context.

Two part counterpoint is a little different though. We can suggest three part counterpoint using leaps, or just use two of these three lines.


My feeling is that the top two voices are perhaps not the best in isolation, but obviously work great in combination with the bass.

[Christian Miller]

If we are playing the chords in inversion - so with a 3rd or 7th in the lower voice, we can get into some SERIOUS beauty. Here we alternate inverted triads and inverted shells. Shells seem to come up a lot. Note we also have a Bo triad here...


In classical voice leading we only use the cycle with the first inversion on the weak stree leading to the dissonant third inversion on the strong side. IT's much more dynamic than the other way around.

You can also do this with all seventh chords, but this is usually done with four voices.

EDIT: oh you also have the 7-6 thing, so in three voices this is like this


Most jazzers would see that as an inversion of the circle progression. In this case we alternate between the root and fifth in the bass which gives us another stepwise bass.
Bm7(b5) Em7/B Am7 Dm7/F etc.

However the upper voice activity is exactly the same as with the root position circle - which is 3rds and 7ths.

[Mick-7]

Christian is making me dizzy... or maybe Dizzy. That wouldn't be so bad.

[joe2758]

Still working on this, peter? I bought the pdf yesterday. Check out this elevator type thing for the whole tone scale from Chris Parks:

unison, major third, augmented triad, augmented triad with the octave on top, dom7b5 chord drop 2. Always with the 5th string in the bass going down whole steps.

[pamosmusic]

Still working on this, peter? I bought the pdf yesterday

Oh yeah. Still working on it. Mostly just the thirds, triad, and shell floors. Went through twelve keys doing cadences with important minor. Just started going through tritone minor with the same floors.

I tend to go through stuff like this pretty slowly.

Though I did just get the other two books too. Super like those.

Check out this elevator type thing for the whole tone scale from Chris Parks:
unison, major third, augmented triad, augmented triad with the octave on top, dom7b5 chord drop 2. Always with the 5th string in the bass going down whole steps.

Wicked.

[joe2758]

What do you think of the transformation stuff?