6th Diminished - Thomas Echols

[Christian Miller]

nah man just spend like 15 mins on the video and maybe like 2 hours on the thumbnail tops

The pro move is to start with the thumbnail and then design the video around it.

I wish I were joking


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[Mick-7]

And there are plenty of augmented chords in the real book… remember that the “#5” and “+” designations are synonyms.

Not really augmented triads so much tho.

Like I said, they're disguised, for example: D7#5 | x-3-4-3-3-x |

And chords such as min#7 & Maj7#5 contain an augmented triad.

[Christian Miller]

Like I said, they're disguised, for example: D7#5 | x-3-4-3-3-x |

And chords such as min#7 & Maj7#5 contain an augmented triad.

It’s not really the same thing

Augmented chord upper structures start appearing under the influence of Strayhorn in the 40s. You see them in bop too. I see them as an early step on the road towards what is called melodic minor harmony today. Think Chelsea Bridge, A Train.

It’s actually a pretty old school sound. Contemporary players might be more likely to use major triads as upper structures.

Compare A+/G7 to A/G7 as a Lydian dominant US for example. The latter sounds much more modern to my ears.

The augmented triad as V chord sort of disappears, a bit like the #IVo7 and bIIIo7 as bop wears on. Maybe overused and had old fashioned associations.

The V7#5 carries on. You do still hear a lot of whole tone harmony in Monk etc but I think it kind of gets more and more replaced with “melodic minor” stuff in the 50s (not totally though.) So the chord is increasingly heard as V7b13.

The V9+5 chord also becomes rare after the bop era. I think of that as a real Ellington thing.

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[pamosmusic]

That’s my favourite bit


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That’s why no one watches my videos

[pamosmusic]

Speaking of which, here’s something that I generally find to be pretty useful.

I do consider my reliance on those Ed Bickert shells to be a bit of a habit/limitation, but I am where I am because I think they rule also. So working with the 6th Dim triads, I mapped out the way they intersect with the shells I already use.

So mapping the way F6 would intersect with my existing G7 stuff, the way D-6 would intersect with my existing D-7 or C stuff, and the way that existing G7 stuff intersects with C6.

With the rootless shells the melody you’re able to build from the moving top line is where the good stuff is, so I’m not worried about voiceleading in the bottom voices. Just the top.

This is me using F6 and C6 with my usual G7 stuff in between.

F6 root melody — G7 (13 on top), G7 (b13), G7 (7), G7 (root)

F6 third melody — G7 (root), G7 (b9), G7 (9), G7 (#9), G7 (3)

F6 fifth melody — G7 (3), G7 (b5), G7 (5)

F6 sixth melody — G7 (13), G7 (b13), G7 (5), G7 (b5)

[joe2758]

my man more in an out of shells than a hermit crab.

[Christian Miller]

I also have this unread book on my shelf glaring at me.

John O'Gallagher - Book


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[pamosmusic]

my man more in an out of shells than a hermit crab.

ooooooooooooooooof

[AllanAllen]

It’s not really the same thing

Augmented chord upper structures start appearing under the influence of Strayhorn in the 40s. You see them in bop too. I see them as an early step on the road towards what is called melodic minor harmony today. Think Chelsea Bridge, A Train.

It’s actually a pretty old school sound. Contemporary players might be more likely to use major triads as upper structures.

Compare A+/G7 to A/G7 as a Lydian dominant US for example. The latter sounds much more modern to my ears.

The augmented triad as V chord sort of disappears, a bit like the #IVo7 and bIIIo7 as bop wears on. Maybe overused and had old fashioned associations.

The V7#5 carries on. You do still hear a lot of whole tone harmony in Monk etc but I think it kind of gets more and more replaced with “melodic minor” stuff in the 50s (not totally though.) So the chord is increasingly heard as V7b13.

The V9+5 chord also becomes rare after the bop era. I think of that as a real Ellington thing.

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What part of A Train? That opening lick? Is it in the D7#11?

[pamosmusic]

What part of A Train? That opening lick? Is it in the D7#11?

yep right in the Melody

[Mick-7]

I also have this unread book on my shelf glaring at me.

I hate it when they do that, "What is wrong with you?! Why did you even buy me?"

[Christian Miller]

I actually meant to post that on the progressivism vs traditionalism thread. But yeah. I think you'd probably like it? I looked into it, and it's very interesting, but it's sort of 'you will need to go down this rabbit hole single mindedly for five years' stuff.

I have some friends who did a project based on the book featuring him.

[Christian Miller]

What part of A Train? That opening lick? Is it in the D7#11?

The augmented chord is in the horn arrangement, you can hear it clearly in the shout chorus.

You also have the iconic intro with the C/G --> Ab+/Gb (or whatever they write it as)

[Mick-7]

The augmented chord is in the horn arrangement, you can hear it clearly in the shout chorus.

You also have the iconic intro with the C/G --> Ab+/Gb (or whatever they write it as)

The New Real Book calls it: Ab7#5/Gb. In fact, the same chord voicing I mentioned earlier: Ab7#5 | x-x-4-5-5-4 |

[Christian Miller]

The New Real Book calls it: Ab7#5/Gb. In fact, the same chord voicing I mentioned earlier: Ab7#5 | x-x-4-5-5-4 |

Actually on reflection I’d call it C+/Gb. Exactly specifies the voicing. I think Ab7#5/Gb is weirdly harder to read too, at least for my dense brain.


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[AllanAllen]

I can't get these grips to sound like the intro. I also only slept about 3 hours last night, getting home late from a gig... then up at 6 with the kids. I do see C+ in the melody now, duh. That parts easy.

[Mick-7]

I can't get these grips to sound like the intro. I also only slept about 3 hours last night, getting home late from a gig... then up at 6 with the kids. I do see C+ in the melody now, duh. That parts easy.

Try A-Ab-A instead of G-Gb-G bassline:
C/A Am7) | 5-x-5-5-5-x | > Ab7#5 | 4-x-4-5-5-x |

Or Make Someone Happy changes:
C(Maj7)| x-3-2-0-(0)-x | > C+ | x-3-2-1-1-x | > Am(add 9) | x-3-2-2-(0)-x |

[Christian Miller]

I can't get these grips to sound like the intro. I also only slept about 3 hours last night, getting home late from a gig... then up at 6 with the kids. I do see C+ in the melody now, duh. That parts easy.

x x 5 5 5 x
X x 4 5 5 4


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[Navdeep_Singh]

What BH taught me is to divide the fingerboard in minor 3rds. What I did is add the three finger barre every minor third that creates a first inversion triad every minor third on strings 432:

Fret position. CHORD
Open. G
3rd. Bb
6th. Db
9th. E
12th. G

Now, if you add the top E string, you have a four note combination with the diminished chord. From this diminished chord, you can get to any minor 6th or dominant 7th, using BH’s rules.

You can can think of those three note triads on the 3rd-6th-9th-12 positions as triads, or you can think of them as notes that lead to notes in the key Eb-Gb-A-C. For example, the last note of the Bb 1st inversion triad on the 3rd pos (F-Bb-D), “D”. forms the leading tone in the key of Eb, the 2nd in the key of C, the #6 in the key Gb, or the 4th in the key of A.

What do the 2nd-4th-#6-M7 form? A diminished chord.

Thus, every minor third down or up the fingerboard is an opportunity to play in any of 4 different keys.

Open-3rd-6th-9th-12th: C-Eb-Gb-A
1st-4th-7th-10th-13th:G-Bb-Db-E
2nd-5th-8th-11th, 14th: D-F-Ab-B


All 12 keys are covered, the fingerboard is broken down into symmetrical parts going up or down in minor thirds. Every aspect of BH’s harmonic system can be used anywhere along these signposts.

I needed a way to navigate that made musical sense. I spent a long time on this, and I’m finally arriving at the fruits of it.

[pamosmusic]

What BH taught me is to divide the fingerboard in minor 3rds. What I did is add the three finger barre every minor third that creates a first inversion triad every minor third on strings 432:

Fret position. CHORD
Open. G
3rd. Bb
6th. Db
9th. E
12th. G

Now, if you add the top E string, you have a four note combination with the diminished chord. From this diminished chord, you can get to any minor 6th or dominant 7th, using BH’s rules.

You can can think of those three note triads on the 3rd-6th-9th-12 positions as triads, or you can think of them as notes that lead to notes in the key Eb-Gb-A-C. For example, the last note of the Bb 1st inversion triad on the 3rd pos (F-Bb-D), “D”. forms the leading tone in the key of Eb, the 2nd in the key of C, the #6 in the key Gb, or the 4th in the key of A.

What do the 2nd-4th-#6-M7 form? A diminished chord.

Thus, every minor third down or up the fingerboard is an opportunity to play in any of 4 different keys.

Open-3rd-6th-9th-12th: C-Eb-Gb-A
1st-4th-7th-10th-13th:G-Bb-Db-E
2nd-5th-8th-11th, 14th: D-F-Ab-B


All 12 keys are covered, the fingerboard is broken down into symmetrical parts going up or down in minor thirds. Every aspect of BH’s harmonic system can be used anywhere along these signposts.

I needed a way to navigate that made musical sense. I spent a long time on this, and I’m finally arriving at the fruits of it.

I would be interested in seeing this in action. It makes some sense, I think, but I’m not 100% sure I see the applications.

[AllanAllen]

Try A-Ab-A instead of G-Gb-G bassline:
C/A Am7) | 5-x-5-5-5-x | > Ab7#5 | 4-x-4-5-5-x |

Or Make Someone Happy changes:
C(Maj7)| x-3-2-0-(0)-x | > C+ | x-3-2-1-1-x | > Am(add 9) | x-3-2-2-(0)-x |

x x 5 5 5 x
X x 4 5 5 4
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Thanks you guys.

[Navdeep_Singh]

Echols Practicing the Elevator

https://youtube.com/shorts/hdRKx40RbBE

[pamosmusic]

I’ve been focusing mostly on the triad and shell floors … the range in the outer voices mirrors what I’m already using. In just the scale up and down stuff, I’ve been going unison up to drop 2, with some modifications to the octave and drop two voicings (dropping the alto voice) to keep them in three notes.

I think the wider stuff is lower priority with the kind of stuff I do … I’ve spent loads of time with drop 3 in the past and never used them. Haven’t spent much with drop 2-4 and never missed them. I’m mostly playing solo, where I like to be more mobile, or playing in groups where those low voicings conflict with other instruments more.

[AllanAllen]

Drops are for piano. Embrace the limitations of guitar.

[pcjazz]

Haven’t spent much with drop 2-4 and never missed them. I’m mostly playing solo, where I like to be more mobile, or playing in groups where those low voicings conflict with other instruments more.

I have been spending time on drop 2&4, no tenor, for comping using Barry’s scales of chords. I always use the bass cut filter on my amps or preamps so the top voices on adjacent strings really stand out while the muted bass adds some depth and richness to the voicings without annoying the bass player. And they are very easy grips. An octave plus a sixth (or flat seventh) between the outside voices. I have a bit of a sentimental attachment to these movements as they were the last thing I discussed with AK before he died.