6th Diminished - Thomas Echols

[AllanAllen]

Yeah gimme a PDF sensei.

[Bobby Timmons]

Run the scale of chords.

Major Sixth Diminished Scale / Barry Harris / Free Pdf /// Short Guitar Lesson - YouTube

[pamosmusic]

Run the scale of chords.

Major Sixth Diminished Scale / Barry Harris / Free Pdf /// Short Guitar Lesson - YouTube

I think maybe it would be more interesting to hear how you practice that.

straight up and down or in patterns? What structures do you use? How do you make it musical? How do you blend it with other stuff you use?

[Bobby Timmons]

My process for getting it musical:

1. Get facility just running the scales of chords. Practice 1/4 notes and 1/8 notes. 1/8 notes really improve facility. Practice 2, 3, and 4 note voicings. Practice every scale of chords: Major 6/dim, minor 6/dim, dom/dim, domb5/dim. Plus dim/dim and aug/aug are no brainers to include imo.

2. Run them over chord patterns like 2-5-1 and 1-6-2-5. Run them over a bluez.

3. Create patterns with the melody note doing something other than a 2nd like 3rds. Borrow notes. Do chromatic notes below. With 1 or 2 voices moving.

4. Apply them to a tune to memorize the lil arrangement.

5. Go for full facility where you apply it to an improvised melody or tune. Go for using it about 1/3 of the time for it to sound BH overall. Try to alternate chords intuitively using rhythms between 1/8 notes and 1/2 notes. Everything doesn't need to be 1/4 notes.

(6. Join Open Studio Pro with Chris and Thomas. )

[pamosmusic]

2. Run them over chord patterns like 2-5-1 and 1-6-2-5. Run them over a bluez.

So what does this look like for you?

[Bobby Timmons]

I plan which of the scales of chords I like for each change, and then I divide practice between just running them or trying to be musical. With the chord patterns just running them is fine for general practice. But then with the bluez it sounds dumb to just run them, so I'll try to be musical with them by using them melodically and only throwing them in at times.

[pamosmusic]

I plan which of the scales of chords I like for each change, and then I divide practice between just running them or trying to be musical. With the chord patterns just running them is fine for general practice. But then with the bluez it sounds dumb to just run them, so I'll try to be musical with them by using them melodically and only throwing them in at times.

When you say "just running them" ... you mean like

- chord - diminished - chord - diminished to the next bar chord - etc?

If so, that's kind of been my experience with tunes too. Works for a cadence, but hard to make it sound interesting for more than a couple bars.

I'll try and post something I've been working on later, maybe.

[pamosmusic]

Noodles:

[Bobby Timmons]

I'll listen to your vid when I get the chance.

Works for a cadence, but hard to make it sound interesting for more than a couple bars.

2 things: you have to learn to use it melodically. Chord melody isn't do re mi sol (le) la ti do. And 2nd, it's best to only use it some of the time anyway or it gets too grandiose. Apologies if you did in your vid.

I can fire up my overhead cam and make a vid if you'd like but only if you want cuz I'm stingey with my time.

[Bobby Timmons]

Listened to the vid. I agree that diads are a great place to start because they're the easiest to grab. They also sound good and are concise.

3 suggestions:

1. Try to run them over a chord pattern.
2. Take 1 scale of chords and try to be melodic with it.
3. Use mostly diads but try to grab 3 or 4 note voicings just when you can.

[pamosmusic]

Listened to the vid. I agree that diads are a great place to start because they're the easiest to grab. They also sound good and are concise.

3 suggestions:

1. Try to run them over a chord pattern.
2. Take 1 scale of chords and try to be melodic with it.
3. Use mostly diads but try to grab 3 or 4 note voicings just when you can.

Doing this stuff. I outlined a bunch of the stuff I’m working on earlier. Just was mentioning one application of it that feels like could probably get some mileage

[Navdeep_Singh]

Comping-chord solo-lyrical lines should be integrated into one solution, not be thought of three discrete constituent parts. The truth is always the whole, and there should not be any holes. That’s the goal. You should be able to interchange from any floor of the elevator to any other floor of the elevator, to borrow from Echols’ lexicon.

[AllanAllen]

Yeah and if you want to sound like Charlie Parker just outline the changes with a few approach notes. Easy to say...

[pamosmusic]

Comping-chord solo-lyrical lines should be integrated into one solution, not be thought of three discrete constituent parts. The truth is always the whole, and there should not be any holes. That’s the goal. You should be able to interchange from any floor of the elevator to any other floor of the elevator, to borrow from Echols’ lexicon.

I don’t know. Maybe?

To put it a different way.

fielding a ground ball, fielding a deep fly ball, turning a double play, bunting, etc are all parts of baseball and should be thought of as a whole, without any holes.

Does that mean I shouldn’t work on the component parts in isolation?

Does that mean I shouldn’t spend more time in the batting cage if I’m a stellar fielder and a really terrible hitter (true story)?

Does that mean I shouldn’t work more on ground balls than fly balls if I know I tend to go into the middle infield?

Philosophy is philosophy.
Practice is practice.

[Bobby Timmons]

Doing this stuff. I outlined a bunch of the stuff I’m working on earlier.

You did say that.

Just was mentioning one application of it that feels like could probably get some mileage.

Well I agree starting with diads is great because it sounds good, you can build up from there, and it's more effective technically especially for guitar.

Comping-chord solo-lyrical lines should be integrated into one solution, not be thought of three discrete constituent parts. The truth is always the whole, and there should not be any holes. That’s the goal. You should be able to interchange from any floor of the elevator to any other floor of the elevator, to borrow from Echols’ lexicon.

My view on it however. The end goal is just can you grab the chords in time and play melodically with it. If you can do that it will be effective for whatever application.

[Navdeep_Singh]

I don’t know. Maybe?

To put it a different way.

fielding a ground ball, fielding a deep fly ball, turning a double play, bunting, etc are all parts of baseball and should be thought of as a whole, without any holes.

Does that mean I shouldn’t work on the component parts in isolation?

Does that mean I shouldn’t spend more time in the batting cage if I’m a stellar fielder and a really terrible hitter (true story)?

Does that mean I shouldn’t work more on ground balls than fly balls if I know I tend to go into the middle infield?

Philosophy is philosophy.
Practice is practice.

The most important contribution Thomas has made is to systematically create the elevator sequences of floors. It takes a few minutes to understand it, but weeks-months-ie, A WHOLE LOT OF TIME- to be able to use it, unconsciously.

The elevator is all about integrating everything in one whole place, such that anything becomes interchangeable at any moment. TO me, that is freedom.

Freedom doesn’t’ come cheap. You can’t read it and mull it over for five minutes.

[pamosmusic]

The most important contribution Thomas has made is to systematically create the elevator sequences of floors. It takes a few minutes to understand it, but weeks-months-ie, A WHOLE LOT OF TIME- to be able to use it, unconsciously.

The elevator is all about integrating everything in one whole place, such that anything becomes interchangeable at any moment. TO me, that is freedom.

Freedom doesn’t’ come cheap. You can’t read it and mull it over for five minutes.

Don't think I disagreed with any of this?

[bediles]

I haven't gone too deep or had time to dig in and make bunch of 'language' but I have written out a few things. I think you can get pretty far with these guidelines for the harmonic stuff:

1. Apply to stepwise motion (allows for every other chord to be dim)
2. Apply to sections with space or held notes to create interest
3. Look for resolution options between chord changes (may not be dim of the chord you are on, may be secondary dominant)
4. Experiment with movement options (block chords (parallel motion), borrowing, borrowing/planing, contrary motion,
dyads, oblique motion)

Here's a little thing I wrote out, maybe useful to some:


Edit: noticed a B# in thr penultimate chord, whoops! That's a C

[AllanAllen]

And here I was, thinking I was going to watch a movie tonight.

[pcjazz]

The most important contribution Thomas has made is to systematically create the elevator sequences of floors..

I agree that Echols has presented the "elevator" systematically in a useful way. But there's not much new under the sun. Have a look at page 76 of Alan Kingstone's book.

[bediles]

Here's an example that uses the same contrary motion 'filling out' pattern. I think this is a little move BH used to teach in his class. Try the CM bit on each min ii V at the end of Stella for another flavour.

[pamosmusic]

I agree that Echols has presented the "elevator" systematically in a useful way. But there's not much new under the sun. Have a look at page 76 of Alan Kingstone's book.

Yeah the thing that really hit me about Echols stuff was the way he broke the chording down into his discrete set of skills.

Pathfinding, summoning, etc.

That was something that was pretty new to me. I’m able intuitively to kind of split single note stuff into all those mechanical skills but chord stuff is often presented as “here are some voicings, have fun,”

[Navdeep_Singh]

The most simple way of thinking contrary motion is to think of wider intervals, 2nds to 3rds to 4ths, to 5ths, to 6ths to 7ths, to ev8ths, 9ths, 10ths, 11ths, 12ths, 13ths. And the reverse. You do it to facile, it becomes like a squeezebox effect, I suppose.

[pamosmusic]

The most simple way of thinking contrary motion is to think of wider intervals, 2nds to 3rds to 4ths, to 5ths, to 6ths to 7ths, to ev8ths, 9ths, 10ths, 11ths, 12ths, 13ths. And the reverse. You do it to facile, it becomes like a squeezebox effect, I suppose.

You have to skip, no?

3rd 5th 7th 9th etc

[Bobby Timmons]

Professor Bobby wants to how everyone is doing with the first homework assignment of running the scales of chords. Proficiency with 2, 3, 4 note voicings, the different scales of chords. You want to be to at least play them in quarter notes at ballad tempos. If you want to start ez, then do Professor Bobby's ez ones for guitar: dim/dim and aug/aug.