The Girl From Ipanema - Gb7+4 Chord

[billkath]

Hi peeps-
I've been going through "The Girl from Ipanema" today. I've come across this chord that I'm not familiar with-Gb7+4. I'm not sure what to do with this-or indeed what they mean by this chord. The way I'm thinking about the actual chord is -Gb7 is tritone substituting for C7?

Now-what do they mean by the Gb7+4? Do they mean add a 4th to a Gb augmented 7 (Gb7+, Gb7+5,Gb7#5) or do they mean a sharp (augmented) 4th added to a Gbdom7? How would you build that chord? R,3,#4,b7? No 5th?
What do they mean? Is it something to do with the scale used against it-a different scale would normally be used for a Gb7b5 rather than the scale normally used over a Gb7+4, even though the two chords are shaped and sound the same?
Please enlighten me- it's really annoying me!!
Thanks a million.

[fep]

It's the same as a Gb7#11 (the #4 and the #11 are the C note), just two ways of saying it.

Here's some voicings...
[chord]

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]

[chord]

O|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]

[chord]

||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]
[chord]

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]

[billkath]

Thanks so much, Fep-that makes so much more sense!
So-any time I see that extention, it always means sharpen a 4th (flatten a 5th)-never another way of saying sus4 (raising a 3rd to a 4th)?

[merseybeat]

Now-what do they mean by the Gb7+4?

Again someone somewhere trying to be a smart arse!
Its always written as Fep says 7#11 or 7b5.

I mean lets play a Gb7#8 or even a Gb7b10 !

Eddie

[fep]

Thanks so much, Fep-that makes so much more sense!
So-any time I see that extention, it always means sharpen a 4th (flatten a 5th)-never another way of saying sus4 (raising a 3rd to a 4th)?

G7#11 and G7b5 are different chords. It has to do with whether a 5th is part of the chord. However, as guitarists we would play the same chord for both of these notations.

One would write a G7#11 or G7#4 when they want the bass player to play a natural 5th... Scales that work over those chords are the diminished scale, the altered scale, the lydian dominant scale and the whole tone scale. (These scales can be used over a G7b5 chord also, perhaps the altered scale and the whole tone scale are the most theoritically correct for G7b5 though as they don't contain the natural 5.)

When I see #4 I immediately think lydian as that is the 'color' note of lydian. Perhaps when someone writes G7#4 they are suggesting the lydian dominant scale. At least that is what it makes me think.

Sometimes people will write G7b5 when the proper bass note is a natural 5. That's common but it's sloppy and inaccurate notation.

At the end of the day, it's your ear (and the bass players ear) that has to determine what is correct in the context of the song.

[Reg]

Thanks so much, Fep-that makes so much more sense!
So-any time I see that extention, it always means sharpen a 4th (flatten a 5th)-never another way of saying sus4 (raising a 3rd to a 4th)?

Hey billkath... It's Gb7#11 and the notes are from Db Melodic Min., The chord is built on the 4th degree of MM. Yes it is a sub.V, built on Tri-tone sub of C7 or V of I (Fmaj.) It's not Gb7b5, the 5th is natural, and b5 would imply a different source for collection of notes. Best Reg

[fep]

Thanks so much, Fep-that makes so much more sense!
So-any time I see that extention, it always means sharpen a 4th (flatten a 5th)-never another way of saying sus4 (raising a 3rd to a 4th)?

Yes it doesn't mean raising the 3rd. All these chords, G7b5, G7#4, G7#11, contain a 3rd.

As an aside a G11 generally doesn't contain a third as the distance between the third, a B note, and the 11th, a C note, is a half step. This half step or minor second is very dissonant and generally doesn't fit the character of a G11 chord. Note the distinction between a G7sus chord and a G11 is that; a G7sus is 1, 4, 5, 7; a G11 is a 1 5 7 9 11. Since the 4 and the 11 are the same note, a C note, the difference between these chords is that the G11 includes a 9 and the G7sus doesn't.

While in practice we play G7#4 and G7#11 the same... is there another theoritical difference?

Yep... A G7#11 is not a G7add#11. That means that a G7#11 is 1 3 5 7 9 #11 whereas the G7(add#11) is 1 3 5 7 #11. A G7(add#11) is the same as a G7#4 as they both don't contain the 9.

Maybe more theoritical detail than you were after? But, if you really want to understand the differences, I'm thinking you need all this detail.

[merseybeat]

Sorry to appear stupid! I just have never heard of a 7#4 ever! Its in non of my chord books??? Its also not on my Guitar-Scales program! Or even here??? 7b5 only!
Guitar Chords

I am always open to terminology but this one has really thrown me! But I do appreciate the fine detail! Respect!

Eddie

[billkath]

Sorry to appear stupid! I just have never heard of a 7#4 ever! Its in non of my chord books??? Its also not on my Guitar-Scales program! Or even here??? 7b5 only!
Guitar Chords

I am always open to terminology but this one has really thrown me! But I do appreciate the fine detail! Respect!

Eddie

It doesn't say sharp 4--it says +4, and hence my confusion. Gb7+4. To me-that could have meant a Gb augmented 7 with a 4th, etc--confusing!!

[merseybeat]

Yes Very! Just Fep refers to a G7#4, I cannot find a reference anywhere??? Not even a google???

Eddie (Man I need a beer now!)

[fep]

Yes Very! Just Fep refers to a G7#4, I cannot find a reference anywhere??? Not even a google???

Eddie (Man I need a beer now!)

Hi Eddie,

I play with a vibe player who hands out a lot of Aebersold charts, they are full of these 7+4 chords. I'm not sure I've seen them anywhere else.

I don't like the + sign in my chord notation that's why I'd tend to say #4 instead of +4.

[merseybeat]

Thanks for that one mate I always appreciate new info! Technically it all makes sense! So many ways to cook an egg

[peskypesky]

in the Ipanema music i have, it calls for a Db7+4 and i have no idea what that is. is it a D flat chord with a minor 7th and a 4th? i can't find anything on the web about it.

[fep]

in the Ipanema music i have, it calls for a Db7+4 and i have no idea what that is. is it a D flat chord with a minor 7th and a 4th (G)? i can't find anything on the web about it.

Yep, Db F G Ab Cb

[peskypesky]

Yep, Db F G Ab Cb

cool. thank you!!!

[peskypesky]

Yep, Db F G Ab Cb

and what would one commonly call this chord? a D flat 7 sus 4?

[peskypesky]

actually, now i'm totally confused...

[fep]

Assuming you want to notate a chord made up by this collection of notes: Db F G Ab C...

A sus4 chord doesn't have a 3rd, so it's not a sus4 chord

The G is a #4 (in the key of Db major the 4th is a Gb)

So if you want exactly those notes and the Db is the root, I don't see that you can call is anything but:

Db7#4

or Db7(add#11)

1 3 5 7 #4 (#4 = #11 they're both G notes)

It seems that the chart writer is being very specific when they write this chord in that they don't want you to play the 9 and the 5th is a natural 5.

I also wonder if they are after the tight voicing created by the 3 #4 & 5 - F G Ab - being played adjacent to each other; which would be difficult on guitar but easy on piano.

I wonder if that would be a difference between a Db7#4 and a Db7#11 in that the #11 could be interpreted as being on top and the #4 would be part of a tone cluster in the middle of the chord.

But then again, maybe it's easier on a chart to write Db7#4 than Db7(add#11) and that's the only difference between the two.

[peskypesky]

so is it a D flat 7 sharp 4?

[billkath]

Yep-it's the same chord as mine-you are just in a different key.
It's NOT a Db7b5, because, as Fep says-they seem to want that dissonance between the natural 5th and the sharpened 4th. Normaly, you'd seperate those two notes by an octave (#11), but it appears that's not what Jobim wants.

But-a question to Fep-i thought that whenever you have a 4 in a major chord that is going to keep the 3 it was always sharpened and you left an octave between the 3 and the #4 ? That the 5th was not needed. Not necessarily making a #11, as there's no 9th-just a #4. it's to differentiate between that chord and a sus4--the third, you see? Would that be right?

[fep]

Hi Bill,

I'll give it a shot...

But-a question to Fep-i thought that whenever you have a 4 in a major chord that is going to keep the 3 it was always sharpened and you left an octave between the 3 and the #4 ? That the 5th was not needed. Not necessarily making a #11, as there's no 9th-just a #4. it's to differentiate between that chord and a sus4--the third, you see? Would that be right?

Leaving an octave between the 3rd and the sharp 4 for a 7#11? Not necessarily, this is the voicing I use the most for a 7#4 (this is G7#4) and the #4 is right next to the 3rd:

[chord]

x|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
x|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]

Leaving the 5th out?

Yes that chord tone is often omitted, I'd say that is the most often omitted chord tone for major, minor, and dominant chords. To me it's just a matter of it not being a tone that defines the chords sound or function, or in other words the chord seems to work just as well without it. But for diminished chords, half diminished, #5 and b5 chords the 5th is needed to help define the quality/fuinction of the chord.

to differentiate between that chord and a sus4?

Well yes, I guess. But not any more than writing Gmaj7 or any other chord to differentiate that a chord is not a Gsus4. I guess I'm not really understanding this question. There's nothing sus4 sounding with this chord at all. The sus4 contains a nat. 4 and no third ; the 7#4 contains both the 3rd and the #4 is a very colorful tone. They're two very different chords.

[randalljazz]

here's what tom wants:

http://p.download.uol.com.br/tomjobi...om_ipanema.pdf

(top down) C, Bb, Ab, E (Fb, really), Gb. juicy cluster!

[billkath]

Randall, that's a great arrangement!!!

[shoome]

One would write a G7#11 or G7#4 when they want the bass player to play a natural 5th... Scales that work over those chords are the diminished scale, the altered scale, the lydian dominant scale and the whole tone scale. (These scales can be used over a G7b5 chord also, perhaps the altered scale and the whole tone scale are the most theoritically correct for G7b5 though as they don't contain the natural 5.)

As you said, the altered scale & WT-scale are the most theoretically correct scale for the 7b5, but for 7#11 I think mixolydian#11 is theoretically more correct. While the altered scale also adds the b9, #9 and b13 it loses the natural 5th and therefore provides a different color because it would treat the chord as a V7alt but it only is a subV7.

looking at the notes for the Gb7#11 from Girl from Ipanema:

Gb7#11: Gb Bb C Db E (1 3 #11 5 7)
Gb altered scale: Gb G A Bb C D E (1 b9 #9 3 #11 b13 7)
Gb mixolydian#11: Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb E (1 9 3 #11 5 13 7)

Correct me if I'm wrong...

[billkath]

Reg-that'd be fantastic, if you wouldn't mind. It'd take me ages (and that's an under-estimate!!)