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Third chord in the prelude to the first cello suite, baby.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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10-21-2024 07:39 AM
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Yeah I mean the V7/I (or V7b9/I in minor) is so incredibly common in baroque and classical music (it’s part of schema/rhetorical gesture called a Quiezenca) that I can’t really see it as breaking any rules. But I suppose it does. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Actually in that guess the effect isn’t actually tension, as the name suggests.
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Well that’s the point right? It breaks a chord scale rule c. 1975 or whatever, but certainly doesn’t break any rule Bach cared about. Nor really anyone else until pretty darned recently. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Honestly pretty much anything under a tonic or dominant pedal doesn’t really sound terribly outside as long as it goes somewhere.
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Yeah I mean just stick an open E pedal and move diminished chords up and down. Everyone recognises that this is silent movie tension music, or cheap romantic music pastiche and yet it breaks the ‘rules.’ But it’s a cliche. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Speaking of cliches, where would prog rock be without odd time polychords on a pedal?
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I spent some time trying to dissect the recording of Vasa that I posted earlier. I wonder if it's in a different key than the chords you posted. It doesn't go to F# pedal very much if at all. Most of the chords seem to be major/minor hybrids. At one point it seems to go
Dm/A
A+/A
Cm/G
G+/G
down to G+/F
which comes across as a descending ii - V line, except it's its own thing. Someone else might be able to analyze it be able to put names to everything, but I don't tend to think that way. There is piano comping behind the bass solo, and then there is a piano solo.
* * *
When a chord is something like G13b9#4/A I'd start by working off the chord tones. In that case there are 7 of them, which is basically a scale already. I wouldn't worry about if a Melodic or Harmonic Minor scale fits. That particular poly chord exists on its own, it provides its own scale.
Other things I'm listening for are what comes before and after. Also, I'm looking to the main melody. At one he plays an Eb Mel Minor scale starting on F. Also when the composer solos, that's even more of a clue, because he know's exactly what's going on.
It's all a good exercise for me to try to figure out what's going on, and I don't think I'm done with it yet.
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
"How My Heart Sings" is certainly his Greatest Hit.
It's a tremendous tune, well worth the time to learn it.
(And nailing how to switch between 3/4 and 4/4 is a transferable skill too.)
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As I mentioned I had no time to even glance at this chart before the band was playing it. The guitar solo starts with C7#11, followed by A+(MA7)/B. (It was the piano solo that started with Bb+(MA7)/F#). Originally Posted by Christian Miller
That B is a pedal for the next 32 bars over 10 different chords. But, I found that out later when I finally had a chance to think about it -- at home that night.
When I first looked at A+(MA7)/B what went through my mind was, "is that a maj7#5, or is the + referring to something else?" Occasionally, maybe more in old Brazilian charts, you might see something like C7(9+) and it refers to a C7#9 chord. It took me a moment to reach a conclusion, by which time, the band had gone on and the chord was Ami(MA7)/B.
That chord struck me as much simpler when viewed in isolation, but the overall harmony was jarring. I couldn't feel anything.
Eventually, I played it on piano. This made clear something that I think is useful.
For the A+(MA7)/B, a pianist can play B and A (b7 interval) in the left hand, with B lower in pitch. The rest of the chord is a Dbmaj triad in the right hand.
Then, for the Ami(MA7)/B, the left hand doesn't move. Two fingers on the right hand drop a half step each. The right hand now has an augmented triad.
The next two chords are the same thing a step lower - except for the B pedal.
So, G+(MA7)/B has a B and G in the left hand and a Bmaj triad in the right hand. Because there's a B in the bass and a Bmaj triad in the right hand, the chord is less dissonant than the A+(MA7)/B.
Next up is the Gmi(MA7)/B which has B and G again in the left hand and an augmented triad in the right hand.
After that the chords get more conventional, except for C+MA7/B (written for some reason without the parentheses).
b9 interval in the left hand? E major triad in right hand?
Once you've divided up like a pianist's hands, soloing through it becomes much simpler. Ignore the left hand. Recognize the triads, major and augmented. And, if you need more notes think about the third mode melodic minor (which harmonizes out to a maj7#5).
I still can't feel the harmony. Sometimes that's because it takes more repetition. Sometimes, maybe, it's because it just isn't your cup of tea.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-21-2024 at 06:23 PM.
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Here's another way of looking at it: (using mostly Melodic minor modes)
A+(MA7)/B = D#m7b5
Am(MA7)/B = G#7 alt
G+(MA7)/B = C#m7b5
Gm(MA7)/B = F#7 alt
F#m7/B = F#m7 or B7 sus
Eb7#9/B = B add9(b6) (B mixolydian b6) or Eb7 alt (assuming there is no Bb in the voicing)
C+(MA7)/B (one bar) = B13b9 sus4 or Ab7 alt
Dmaj7/B (one bar) = Bm9
Em7/B (one bar) = G6
GmMa7 = C9#11
FmMa7 = Bb9#11
EbmMa7 = Cm7b5(9)
F13#11 ...
This makes it kind of functional, but with perhaps unexpected extensions in the ii - V's.
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Great idea. It took me a minute to realize you used the appropriate chord from the harmonized melodic minor scale and turned the first four chords into ii Vs. Gets a little more tenuous after that, but every little bit helps. Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
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fuzzthebee?
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this is useful for gaining a compositional insight. You could use these subs on standards to get used to them. Looks like the first four bars could sub in for the GDS turnaround for example. Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
The B pedal bass is unusual though .
Speaking of which I quite like this video
I would say in general a compositional insight is not always required for improvisation. I think sometimes it helps, but in a bandstand situation often you don’t have time to go into a deep dive with this stuff. Jazz players often play songs where they don’t understand the compositional process. Wayne springs to mind, but even GASB stuff - I don’t think most jazzers can write like that.
In which case I would say the two main schools of thought are the following (using Mick Goodrich’s terms)
1) DERIVATIVE convert chords to parent scales
So A+maj7 becomes F#mm
Challenge is it can be like converting time zones on the fly. The mental arithmetic needs to be honed. But you only need like three scales.
Then we have F#mm Amm Emm Gmm etc. You can see the ii V motion from the minor thirds!
2) PARALLEL - use modes based on the root
(In this case I’d use the chord before the slash and ignore the B)
So A+maj7 becomes A Lydian augmented, and so on
Challenge is you have to learn LOADS of scales and then practice all your patterns through them.
Choose and perish!
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