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No foul language, please.
Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
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09-07-2024 04:43 AM
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If you are looking to prioritise, I would say the main ones are major and minor - these will do you for pretty much all situations. I would say it is better to get really inside these two scales and their applications before moving on. This could take, ooh a decade or so? Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
At least that's my impressions from classes. Ask Chris, see if he agrees.
So main applications off the top of my head
- maj-6 on the root and the 5th
- min-6
- important minor (min-6 on the 5th of the dominant)
- tritone sub for dominant (later, brothers and sisters)
- ii chords are inversion of IV chords and take the appropriate scale.
I never heard Barry discuss the dim-dim scale, though it also functions like an 8 note scale. I'm not sure he was a fan of that sound tbh? I tend to associate it more with Coltrane and that movement anyway and Barry wasn't much of a fan of that haha.
The dom7-dim is not something we spent much time with. Barry didn't really like that one, I use it as a fill-in for comping rhythm guitar on vanilla dominant chords mostly.
The 7b5-dim is a very cool scale. Barry said he hand't worked that much with it, but really liked it.
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Randy Vincent's Drop 2 book (or Mark Levine's original version depending on your instrument) presents this material in a very compact and well organized package. Alan Kingstone's book is more advanced in a way as it interleaves the presentation of the basics with a selection of topics covered in BH workshops over the years. These topics are harmonic devices that are derived from the basic mechanics but they are best learned after mastering the basics, IMO. So, these two books together cover a lot of ground.
The key insight of this approach is seeing harmony as moving voices in a more orchestral way. So it's really not about memorizing a bunch of chord phrases and moving on. The real learning starts after you get comfortable with the basics and start experimenting in a self directed way. You discover how harmony and "substitutions" work by exploring voice movements.
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Yes, quite true.
I think people identify mechanical voicings/drop 2 block chording with Barry due to the memetic power of the web. If they run into the Beato video for example, they'll think that's what it is.
These practices predated Barry's teaching of the scales of chords by some decades (especially bearing in mind he started teaching them in the 80s) Berklee also has a long history of teaching this stuff. George Shearing was the guy who first started using these harmonisations on piano I believe, and influenced Barry.
Barry presumably started off with the various drops but his ultimate interest was, I suppose counterpoint, or what he called movement. The scales of chords are derived from block chord approaches and observations of various patterns and ideas in jazz and classical music.
A lot of mainstream books (like Levine and Vincent) conflate 'bebop scales' and the scales that produce the drop 2 block harmonisations. In fact the scales are not always the same (the dom7-dim is not the same as the dominant bebop scale, for instance), and of course Barry's added note scales for improvisation have quite a bit more to them.
So I think it's important to ditch all the bebop scale baggage if you want to study Barry properly and use his terminology. But the mainstream stuff will give you the basic gist. It took me quite a while to get all the drop 2 sales under my fingers.
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Mad at theory. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I agree about prioritizing those. I need a full pallet tho.If you are looking to prioritise, I would say the main ones are major and minor - these will do you for pretty much all situations.
I'm good on that lol. I'm already getting command of major and minor plus other ones I like. Not waiting 10 years. :PI would say it is better to get really inside these two scales and their applications before moving on. This could take, ooh a decade or so?
Both times I've asked Chris a question he doesn't answer what I asked and goes into BH line building lol. I guess I will focus my work towards that, nothing wrong with focusing on that for his classes. Or maybe it's because he doesn't know my experience level and so is starting at the start.At least that's my impressions from classes. Ask Chris, see if he agrees.
Agree. At least need major and minor plus a concept of what you prefer for dominant chords.So main applications off the top of my head
- maj-6 on the root and the 5th
- min-6
- important minor (min-6 on the 5th of the dominant)
- tritone sub for dominant (later, brothers and sisters)
- ii chords are inversion of IV chords and take the appropriate scale.
I'm a fan of them and use them.I never heard Barry discuss the dim-dim scale, though it also functions like an 8 note scale. I'm not sure he was a fan of that sound tbh? I tend to associate it more with Coltrane and that movement anyway and Barry wasn't much of a fan of that haha.
The dom7-dim is not something we spent much time with. Barry didn't really like that one, I use it as a fill-in for comping rhythm guitar on vanilla dominant chords mostly.
It's a good crunchy one.The 7b5-dim is a very cool scale. Barry said he hand't worked that much with it, but really liked it.
Yep. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Yeah Randy’s book is really cool but not quite the sixth diminished stuff. More “grippy” … which is still cool. And he uses some little big band pitch replacement techniques to get some absolutely wicked voicings too. Originally Posted by Tal_175
I’ll take any opportunity to plug Alan’s book. Lots of voicing ideas in it, but also drop 2s hurt my wrists so I ditched them for some three-note voicings and the material is still all applicable. Honestly probably to the point where about 60 percent is useful for piano too. I’ve been working on the first little movement he lists for like …. I don’t know two months. So I’m probably more on the Ten Year Timeline than the Bobby Warpspeed timeline though.
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Barry wouldn’t have put up with any of that mixolydian nonsense. The term we use is dominant. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
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It is true that Randy Vincent doesn't describe his voicing variations as borrowing from the diminished. Nevertheless what he describes as "tweaks" amount to borrowing middle voices from the neighboring diminished chord and what he describes as "extensions" amount to borrowing the soprano voice from the diminished. Note the borrowed notes do not have to be resolved back to the original chord in BH system (ie. they aren't always treated as suspensions but they can be new voicings). Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Not quite. True that the borrowed chords don’t have to resolve, but it also gets you more sounds than you’d get by using Randy’s chords. Originally Posted by Tal_175
He borrows normal major diatonic notes.
Thats kind of typical big band voicing substitution. Like you take the root and trade it for the ninth. Fifth for thirteenth.
The “bebop scale” note is just used as the root of the missing diminished chord, it’s not a regular scale tone to be traded in and out of other chords. Or at least he doesn’t use it that way that I recall.
You never end up with, say, the C6 chord with C Ab A and E.
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Mad Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Just finished a Chris Parks class. We did scale outlining on the Parker tune Segment. Chris is a badass singer. He can formulate a line for you and sing it, or demonstrate any melody, or he can sing back any line that you play.
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Christian, when and where did you attend BH class? Was it in London?
Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 09-07-2024 at 05:29 PM.
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Yes, I went whenever I could between 2005 and the pandemic. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
I would tend to defer to Alan, Chris or for that matter Shan who certainly had a lot more exposure to Barry’s teaching than I did on a regular basis, so if they contradict anything I’m saying, I’d be interested to hear it.
Actually Chris’s channel is one reason I stopped doing so many BH vids. I just feel he’s in a position to do it so much better than me. On the other hand, he’s a friend of my channel and checks in from time to time, which is nice…
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Barry would sing all the stuff in class. If you can’t sing it you can’t play it, not really. Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
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Been curious about the natural 6th on a ii7 issue w the BH harmonic system. Not sure if it's explicitly mentioned as this exact situation happens so rarely in GASB tunes. Wrote a little blurb about it:
Any thoughts from the more experienced BH practitioners?
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A few years ago I harmonised My Romance as a BH exercise and I also hit this problem. I went for the G7 option to preserve the B on top.
I think Randy Vincent mentions this in one of his books (the drop 2 book?). As I recall he suggested the Em7 idea (although it was on a different tune I think).
(edit: just looked it up, his example was on a modal tune, Little Sunflower.)
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Ime, you need to have your own options for situations like these when the melody deviates from the system, and then use your ear to determine which you like best.
I think an aux dim with using the A and C in the melody for D-7 and the B and D for Do7 is fine. Also what you have written is fine.
Another device I have is I will stick a whole tone voicing between the main chord inversion. So say for the D melody note, D, Ab, E, Bb. It's nice and crunchy.
You can formulate cells as not always moving strictly from 1 to 5 / tension to release, but formulate them as progressing longer than 2 chord cells such as 3 or 4 by starting on the main chord, then going to a dim, then going to a chord with even more tension like a whole tone for example then back to the main chord. Or you can use the same amount of tension by using 2 dims (or whole tones) in a row.Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 09-08-2024 at 09:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Well it isn't often that one reads something one agrees with this much. This post presents the hard-core of BH teaching as I have seen it for the last decade or so. it transforms the business of learning to improvise with freedom and precision - and it is particularly important for guitarists who can get lost in labyrinths of neck-geometry if they don't have this hugely simplifying move (the one which replaces all the different diatonic chord forms with a combination of major 6th and (melodic) min 6th sounds.) If your learn how to 'present' the maj 6th sound and the melodic minor sixth sound (i.e. break them both up into their constituent triads - 'arpeggios': and use enclosures and approach tones to open out its chromatic structure - 'scales') then you can move these shapes around the neck to cover every harmonic angle of the song-book.
usually when you simplify you loose detail - in this case the detail is retained and even enhanced by the simplifying re-presentation of diatonic harmony as a combination of two simple sounds.
ii chord is a major 6th starting on fourth degree
V chord is minor sixth starting on fifth degree of Dom.
m7flat5 is minor sixth with its sixth in the bass
all altered dominants are melodic minor sixth sounds - (roots on sharp 5 of tonic scale / four of tonic scale / and fifth of Dominant scale which gives the crucial flat 5 sound (which is revealed as an aspect of the straight dominant sound)
of course BH"s 'in-out' 'inversion/diminished' chord scale - brings out the true structure of both the maj 6th sound and the melodic minor sixth sound.
the basic tools we use HAVE to be super simple because we have to use them to improvise - which is a process that cannot involve very much 'conscious thought' at all
As I go through the song book harmonising my favourite melodies, this harmonic framework consistently offers solutions to voicing issues which bring out the simple (and sometimes not so simple) beauty of the melody. similarly it reveals - e.g. - the harmonic framework implicit in Charlie Parker solos.
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Again, the Howard Rees DVD's outline all of this in a clear digestible format that wasn't always apparent from jumping into a random BH workshop.
It actually took me a long time to piece together what on Earth was going on, though I was always intrigued and could see Barry had massive legitimacy as a teacher of jazz which made me more inclined to see where this went. Mostly at the start it was a catalyst for learning block chording, which ended up being useful on its own for a few years - I used that stuff to death. Still do, although now it's so ingrained I don't even think about it being a thing.
And that's a great thing - there are many little bits and pieces within Barry's teaching that can be used on their own, the drop 2 scale of chords being the most celebrated, but there's loads of stuff.
Although really it was when I started working on a little Bird and Bud that the scope and depth of his teaching started to come into focus. And that was the single note improvisation stuff only - as Barry noted, Bud didn't play the 8 note scales much.
I always felt you had to do your own homework to prepare for the class, and the DVD's were the way that many people did this.
For me DVD set I could represent several years work in of itself. So I think it's actually good value for money.
So my experience is that it remains a well spring that I can always come back to, even though I'm not a dedicated student in the way that some others are (for example those that followed him around Europe every summer, like Shan - or David Friedman who is not on youtube, but would be my first call for info on Barry relating to guitar in London). And in fact, I think aside from the recognised Barry acolytes there's a lot of musicians who fall under that umbrella. I get the impression a LOT of musicians passed through Barry's door over the years that you may not expect.
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Going by page 69 of DVD Set I booklet the vibe seems to be that we are perfectly happy with a natural 6th on a ii chord. Example 1 is a drop 2 C maj-6 scale moving to a rootless D13b9 and G6/9 voicing. Sounds lush. Originally Posted by bediles
Been curious about the natural 6th on a ii7 issue w the BH harmonic system. Not sure if it's explicitly mentioned as this exact situation happens so rarely in GASB tunes. Wrote a little blurb about it:
Any thoughts from the more experienced BH practitioners?
The second example is a drop 2 Cm6-dim moving to a rootless D7#9b13 and then to Gm6/6maj7(no 3rd)
In terms of harmonising a melody - I would explore the scale that fits best and not worry too much about the chord symbol? So in this case the C6-dim fits well on this part of the melody even though the bass suggests a brief move to F - 6th on 5th?
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crucial to appreciate that the 'minor 6th' sound which pairs with the 'major 6th' sound is not a diatonic sound (not in a major key anyway). it is the tonic sound of a minor key - a melodic minor sound. exactly the same as the major sound just with a flattened third. So the cool stuff in a major key comes from unearthing minor tonalities within it - or injecting it with minor tonalities from outside it (whichever picture appeals).
the amazing thing is the way the true minor sound (think e.g. You Don't Know What Love Is on Saxophone Colossus) can be found, lurking in the interstices of the familiar diatonic apparatus used in the lead sheet:
in the II7 sound (two Dom) - very often the secret to a tune's melodic appeal (II7 in C is really Am6)
in the min 7 flat five sound (off its sixth)
in the dominant sound (off its fifth)
and what generates alt. Dom sounds:
off the sharpened fifth of the tonic (that's the flat nine of the traditional dominant)
the fourth of the tonic (that's the flat nine of the three dominant - which is the Dom of the relative minor in a major key)
this 'true minor' sound is just where the thing is at: it is both the prettiest and friendliest sound to work with (combining the light and the dark elements of harmony) and the one which makes the songbook sing. you get into the songbook primarily by learning how to present it from every possible angle and use it in every possible way - not by learning loads and loads of different - more and more esoteric - sounds which deserve different (more and more esoteric) names.
basic functions of true minor sound in major tonality:
II7
one of the true minor sound's primary functions (in major keys) is to generate - in the II7 sound (Lil' Darlin / If I were a bell / Tangerine start with this sound - almost everything has it somewhere crucial - Cherokee/Days of W/A train/Indiana.....). Two dominant is a sort of new tonic sound which is neither major nor minor - neither quite in motion nor quite at rest. II7 is I in disguise. (well its vim6 in disguise - which is I in disguise)
D7 in C is really Am6 (the flat five of D7 is really the major 7th of Am6 and the third of D7 is really the sixth of Am6 - the seventh of D7 is really the third of Am6).
Am6 adds both a flatted 5 and a sharp 5 to the tonic sound C major. This very distinctive and pretty tension usually gets resolved into a ii chord. when it does, the sharp 5 (relative to tonic - C) goes up a semi-tone to the fifth of ii - and the flat 5 of C goes down a semi-tone to the 3 of ii. This distinctive harmonic resolution relieves the tedium of chords constantly moving across fourths/fifths - and puts magic into the tune.
ivm6
another fundamental function the true minor sound plays in major harmony is to provide an alternative to V - I resolutions by opening a back-door into I. This is typically written/conceived as a Dom sound on the flat 7 of a major key - but that sound is really (or also) iv m6.
This ivm6 plays a crucial role in songbook harmony. V-I can also be e.g. iv m6 - iii; and ii - V can also be IV - iv. (Just Friends, Foggy Day, Days of Wine, My heart stood still, Polka Dots etc.) Those two equivalences alone transform the business of improvisation - both simplifying it and enhancing it at the same time. First and foremost it is present in the changes themselves and not just in high-brow solos which employ sophisticated substitutions.
it's helpful to see that these true minor sounds don't arrive in major tonality 'from nowhere'. The minor sixth sound which we are inlined to call e.g. dom7 flat nine sharp five - has as its root a note we will think of as the flat nine of the V chord which leads to I ; and the minor sixth sound we are inlined to call a Dom 7 flat nine sound, has as its root the note we will think of as the flat nine of the V chord leading to vi (namely III7). So we have these two ways to use the melodic or true minor sound to generate alt Dom sounds in major keys because we can play a V - I resolution in a major key in two ways: as a resolution into I or as a resolution into vi. (you find a min 6th sound starting on the flatted ninth of both V and III7 - and V is the way to I just as III7 is the way to vi)
even im6 can be used as an altered Dom sound (and can be seen functioning this way in songs). I - IV7 - iii - VI7 - ii - V - I (e.g. I've never been in love before)
here the IV7 is really im6 - a melodic minor sound with its root on the tonic (!). its a way of getting to iii and iii is I in disguise. So you can go ivm6 - iii OR im6 - iii as a way of going V - I.
this stuff might SOUND heavy when you turn it into 'English' (when you describe it verbally) - but it is the opposite of heavy in terms of what it means for the improvising musician.Last edited by Groyniad; 09-10-2024 at 07:23 AM.
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I don't see the natural 6th in those examples over the iimin or iimin half dim. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
As far as using C6 dim, sounds like a reharm to me.
I've tried listening to some of Barry's actual performances of My Romance and that didn't uncover anything either. This situation happens so rarely in standards (quarter note melody, not an approach tone, not a tonic min) maybe I'm making a big deal out of it. But it has always bugged me a bit why none of the BH folks (Chris, Thomas, Shan and co.) have addressed this.
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Beat two of the first bar? Originally Posted by bediles
Christian is using a common tone, or auxiliary diminished chord over that. In my limited knowledge of Barry's stuff he's very free with how those diminished chords resolve, and that's a super super common one from the American songbook (I Remember You with I to idim and back, for example). So he's using it here for the IV chord, I guess, but the same device.
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when the melody is the natural sixth on a ii chord (which happens quite a lot in the songbook) - or the third on a V chord - the first inversion of a min6th captures the sound perfectly.
e.g.
in F - melody note E - play first inversion of Gm6 (with 3rd in bass and 6th in top voice)
this voicing is like a maj sharp 11 sound (root on 4th degree of f maj) - and crops up all over the place it seems to me.
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I raised this issue not so long ago in the post #1574 of the "Official BH thread": Originally Posted by bediles
Official Barry Harris Thread
This lead to a good discussion but not to a satisfying conclusion. There are a variety of approaches (and of course trial and error) that work in that situation outside of strict BH applications. So to me it's not super important to find a way to BH approach in that situation but it'd be interesting to find out how he addressed it.
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