Ed Bickert chords and diatonic cycles

[pamosmusic]

Im glad you’re using this term. Obviously not quite what’s going on here but I definitely had that term come to mind a few times while I was putting this stuff together and it does feel like a sort of chops building preliminary step to assembling those chord patterns.

I’ll have more thoughts on that at some point.

Also putting a pin in the compound cycles. I have some thoughts there too.

(it might sometimes seem like Im not listening, but I’m stealing eeeeeeveryones stuff.)

Alright. So more detail here. I think I imagine this being like line building, where a person has to learn licks, but also has to learn how a good line is put together and how to start coming up with their own ideas using the licks they’ve learned. So I imagine this as the sort of scales/chops part of a chord-pattern-building process if you want to call it that.

I’ll try and describe that (though this might be long-winded and better suited to a video).

1. I start with rhythm. I work a lot with what I call “Red Garland rhythms” which are basically half notes with alternation between inside on beat one and outside on beat three. So Dm7 on beat one and an approach chord to G7 on beat three for example. And then those rhythms are varied by different combinations of anticipation and delay. So you get really strong jazz rhythms but with this inside-outside framework that’s really useful for putting together movement. Generally I have them start those as individual rote patterns, but pretty quickly they’re able to start “hearing” the anticipation and delay and playing with it more freely, which is cool.

2. They use these cycles to get used to some sort of movement — side slipping, diatonic movement, diminished/dominant movement, or even just upper structures.

3. they take that movement to four bars of a tune or maybe a ii-V-I or whatever to start coming up with ideas.

So with just these kind of limited ideas …

Dm7 … beat one could be Dm7 or Fmaj7 … beat three could be Dm7 or Fmaj7 (but not the same as was on beat one), or it could be any of those approaches from above or below to whatever chord is on beat one of the next measure … so Ab7, F#7, Am7, Fmaj7, Ao7, F#o7, etc.

So what starts as Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 - A7 can end up …

… Dm7 Fmaj7 - G7 Fm7 - Em7 Bb7 A7 C#o7

… or … Fmaj7 A#m7b5 - Bm7b5 G7 - Cmaj7 Em7 - A7 Ebm7 … or whatever a million other things.

I think the thing that I’ve found pleasantly surprising is how quickly — like with the rhythms — people have been able to start playing with these things in the moment. These do quickly become a bottomless pit, but what that means on the other hand, is that a very small number of possibilities can give you loads of variation and a lot of opportunities to start internalizing and improvising with a sound.

[Reg]

Alright. So more detail here. I think I imagine this being like line building, where a person has to learn licks, but also has to learn how a good line is put together and how to start coming up with their own ideas using the licks they’ve learned. So I imagine this as the sort of scales/chops part of a chord-pattern-building process if you want to call it that.

I’ll try and describe that (though this might be long-winded and better suited to a video).

1. I start with rhythm. I work a lot with what I call “Red Garland rhythms” which are basically half notes with alternation between inside on beat one and outside on beat three. So Dm7 on beat one and an approach chord to G7 on beat three for example. And then those rhythms are varied by different combinations of anticipation and delay. So you get really strong jazz rhythms but with this inside-outside framework that’s really useful for putting together movement. Generally I have them start those as individual rote patterns, but pretty quickly they’re able to start “hearing” the anticipation and delay and playing with it more freely, which is cool.

2. They use these cycles to get used to some sort of movement — side slipping, diatonic movement, diminished/dominant movement, or even just upper structures.

3. they take that movement to four bars of a tune or maybe a ii-V-I or whatever to start coming up with ideas.

So with just these kind of limited ideas …

Dm7 … beat one could be Dm7 or Fmaj7 … beat three could be Dm7 or Fmaj7 (but not the same as was on beat one), or it could be any of those approaches from above or below to whatever chord is on beat one of the next measure … so Ab7, F#7, Am7, Fmaj7, Ao7, F#o7, etc.

So what starts as Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 - A7 can end up …

… Dm7 Fmaj7 - G7 Fm7 - Em7 Bb7 A7 C#o7

… or … Fmaj7 A#m7b5 - Bm7b5 G7 - Cmaj7 Em7 - A7 Ebm7 … or whatever a million other things.

I think the thing that I’ve found pleasantly surprising is how quickly — like with the rhythms — people have been able to start playing with these things in the moment. These do quickly become a bottomless pit, but what that means on the other hand, is that a very small number of possibilities can give you loads of variation and a lot of opportunities to start internalizing and improvising with a sound.

Yea... starting to become usable.

Not so much the chords or cycles, more of Harmonic Movement that has Tonal Implication(s). You start expanding the term Tonal to open more doors to being able to expand the harmonic movement... (chord Patterns). The trick... at least as it was taught to me.... like 50 years ago, is the musical organization(s)... that creates strength of sill implying what your referencing. I have found that using standard mechanical devices... like your studies, become very Vanilla. to the point of boring etc... If you just added a simple blue note organization to the vanilla examples... you'll open more doors for getting out of that vanilla syndrome. Actually become usable and even fun to play etc...

It's only complicated if you make it that way. I'm very simple player.... as many have reminded me...LOL... But the act of not overly complicating the elements I'm using... allows me to actually play my licks at the tempo of Jazz.

I don't really need to practice that much, I expand what I play while playing gigs. What works... I keep and either try and fix what didn't work or dump it.

For the record... I did go through most of these type of studies decades ago. The only difference is I got the concept, the organization for developing the study down as compared to the actual notating out or working through all possibilities of playing the study.

I relied on my technical skills to be able to play through the cycles etc... Different approach for learning and practicing.

Not better or worse... but much faster results.

Your examples of expanding changes is how I play... LOL The trick is having targets and use of rhythmic standard patterns realized with Chord Patterns...

And then also using combinations of musical organization... for reinforcing those targets.

It's much easier than it sounds... I'm around for next couple weeks.... I can't post examples or start another thread.

[pamosmusic]

have found that using standard mechanical devices... like your studies, become very Vanilla. to the point of boring etc...

Ah well. Noted

For the record... I did go through most of these type of studies decades ago. The only difference is I got the concept, the organization for developing the study down as compared to the actual notating out or working through all possibilities of playing the study.

I don’t write these down for myself. I write them down for students, for whatever that’s worth. Most people (not all people) learn by seeing/hearing/repeating the thing and getting the result, and the conceptual understanding sneaks in the back door. I usually like to understand a thing first, but a big adjustment I’ve had to make as a teacher is that most people learn the other way around. So I write out enough stuff that folks can just do the thing. If people need that to get off the ground, then they have it. If they don’t need it, well … they still have it.

But again — also bear in mind this is something I send people in small chunks along with lessons.

[Tal_175]

Peter, how do you make sure that these exercises have a lasting effect on your students?
I mean, if they are just reading the notation (or worse tabs) and memorizing the material as an abstract exercise, they'd just move on eventually and forget all of it. That's true even if they only learned a small chunk of it. Is it up to them to integrate the exercises to their lasting vocabulary or is the integration also part of your teaching method?

[pamosmusic]

Peter, how do you make sure that these exercises have a lasting effect on your students?
I mean, if they are just reading the notation (or worse tabs) and memorizing the material as an abstract exercise, they'd just move on eventually and forget all of it. That's true even if they only learned a small chunk of it. Is it up to them to integrate the exercises to their lasting vocabulary or is the integration also part of your teaching method?

Well the first thing is that, as Reg mentioned, this is a bottomless pit. So it looks like a lot of information, but it’s only written in one key, and only the basic cycles are written out in full.

So if they’re doing them in other keys, or doing the approaches, then they aren’t written down. So ideally this is a reference more than it is just a list of a bunch of stuff written down. But that’s always a balance … if you have someone that needs something written, then you want to have enough to get them off the ground, but you don’t want a crutch. Is this that sweet spot? No idea, but I’m always trying to stay in there.

As for the rest of the answer, of course applying it is part of the practice too. I’ve mentioned several times that I try to impress upon folks that this stuff is just like scale work where it hits diminishing returns if you get stuck in it. And I’ll refer to this response I posted to Reg.

Alright. So more detail here. I think I imagine this being like line building, where a person has to learn licks, but also has to learn how a good line is put together and how to start coming up with their own ideas using the licks they’ve learned. So I imagine this as the sort of scales/chops part of a chord-pattern-building process if you want to call it that.

I’ll try and describe that (though this might be long-winded and better suited to a video).

1. I start with rhythm. I work a lot with what I call “Red Garland rhythms” which are basically half notes with alternation between inside on beat one and outside on beat three. So Dm7 on beat one and an approach chord to G7 on beat three for example. And then those rhythms are varied by different combinations of anticipation and delay. So you get really strong jazz rhythms but with this inside-outside framework that’s really useful for putting together movement. Generally I have them start those as individual rote patterns, but pretty quickly they’re able to start “hearing” the anticipation and delay and playing with it more freely, which is cool.

2. They use these cycles to get used to some sort of movement — side slipping, diatonic movement, diminished/dominant movement, or even just upper structures.

3. they take that movement to four bars of a tune or maybe a ii-V-I or whatever to start coming up with ideas.

So with just these kind of limited ideas …

Dm7 … beat one could be Dm7 or Fmaj7 … beat three could be Dm7 or Fmaj7 (but not the same as was on beat one), or it could be any of those approaches from above or below to whatever chord is on beat one of the next measure … so Ab7, F#7, Am7, Fmaj7, Ao7, F#o7, etc.

So what starts as Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 - A7 can end up …

… Dm7 Fmaj7 - G7 Fm7 - Em7 Bb7 A7 C#o7

… or … Fmaj7 A#m7b5 - Bm7b5 G7 - Cmaj7 Em7 - A7 Ebm7 … or whatever a million other things.

I think the thing that I’ve found pleasantly surprising is how quickly — like with the rhythms — people have been able to start playing with these things in the moment. These do quickly become a bottomless pit, but what that means on the other hand, is that a very small number of possibilities can give you loads of variation and a lot of opportunities to start internalizing and improvising with a sound.

[Reg]

Yea Peter... I feel for you. Most teachers have to become babysitters... I taught for years, both privately and at colleges etc... Was good for paychecks etc... family... yada....

I've never really been a good teacher... but have always believed that you need to understand what your trying to do.

[pamosmusic]

Yea Peter... I feel for you. Most teachers have to become babysitters... I taught for years, both privately and at colleges etc... Was good for paychecks etc... family... yada....

I've never really been a good teacher... but have always believed that you need to understand what your trying to do.

I don’t know man. On the whole, I’m pretty lucky. A half dozen students who are super motivated and listen to the music and have a lot of questions and practice.

But even if they didn’t … I suppose I could call it babysitting, but it would still be my job [shrugs]

[Christian Miller]

I do a lot of babysitting, cheap childcare gigs lol, but I'm getting quite good at tricking them into actually doing some music. That's REAL teaching, and what I get paid for as I see it. It can be maddening, but it can also be incredibly rewarding.

That's the actual teaching in fact because teaching motivated students isn't actually teaching, it's fun you get paid for. Those students will be fine whatever. The role maybe shifts to something more like mentoring should they wish to pursue a career in music.

(Adult students are a different challenge - most often it's about getting down to the actual doing.)

[Reg]

Cheap Childcare gigs.... I love that.

What age do you see the change?

[pamosmusic]

Weird but I really don’t see much correlation with the age. There are obviously some developmental things with younger children and attention and motor skills … but I had an absolutely incredible third grader last year. Like … reads music, stands up for her some and quotes melodies from other songs, comes in knowing songs I never taught her.

And of course plenty of adults who are just there for something to do an hour a day week.

I guess maybe late middle school is when I see a bit of a developmental shift with respect to being able to process more of the abstraction … theory etc. but that’s less important than I think I thought it would be

[Christian Miller]

I would say teaching kids younger than six is tricky


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[pamosmusic]

I would say teaching kids younger than six is tricky


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Oh yeah. That’s motor skills and finger strength stuff.

If I get a kid that young I tell the parents it’ll be music lessons more than guitar lessons and we do lots of rhythm games and singing and we just do however much guitar they can handle on a given day.

But yeah … I’ve had some six year olds who did surprisingly well with instrument in hand and I had a third grader last year who just didn’t have the fine motor for guitar yet (or bass guitar, in his case) so we switched him to drums and he did much better. So it’s a range for sure, but I’m not sure I’ve ever had a kid younger than six who was ready for more than a few minutes of guitar at a stretch. Then again, I’ve only taught a couple kids younger than six.

[Reg]

Interesting... I'm old, but

Started lessons when I was 4, piano and then different instruments through elementary school, K-6th. Played guitar the whole time. Parents were separated and I was a hyper kid... lessons keep me busy.

In early 60's.. took lessons from working B-3 player... Black dude, friend of Dick Conte, local piano player and DJ for KJAZ.. my somewhat girl friend's father started the station... anyway ...He worked with me through through Bakers book... I could read music and had chops...But sucked... He got my shit together and started playing in bands, I was always the kid..LOL
Actually started playing paying gigs a few years later. Some how only smoked pot.... was around all the shit.

I guess... it just depends on how fast one needs to grow up... LOL. I grew up with musicians... and that forced me or maybe just made it seem normal to have chops... all my teachers had them.

Maybe there is some good from growing up on the streets... It was a Different time...

[Mick-7]

I was looking at a transcription of a Bill Evans solo the other day, he plays mostly 3 note chords in his left hand to accompany his single line soloing. T'was practically a tutorial on how to use these voicings, and he altered most of the chords - I found that interesting.

[Bobby Timmons]

and he altered most of the chords - I found that interesting.

Yep, it's Bill. How would it sound grandiose af if he weren't using very embellished harmony? :P Imo, you kind of have to do some tech stuff in jazz for it to sound redeeming. Not necessarily Bill levels tho.

[Mick-7]

Yep, it's Bill. How would it sound grandiose af if he weren't using very embellished harmony? Imo, you kind of have to do some tech stuff in jazz for it to sound redeeming. Not necessarily Bill levels tho.

Actually it's not quite accurate to say that he "altered" most of the chords, just that he often combined the guide tones, the chords' 3rds and 7ths, with an extension or, less often, an altered chord tone, so Cm7 might be G-D-Eb, F7 may be A-Eb-Gb or A-Eb-G, etc., with voice-leading being the guiding factor.

[pamosmusic]

Actually it's not quite accurate to say that he "altered" most of the chords, just that he often combined the guide tones, the chords' 3rds and 7ths, with an extension or, less often, an altered chord tone, so Cm7 might be G-D-Eb, F7 may be A-Eb-Gb or A-Eb-G, etc., with voice-leading being the guiding factor.

Yeah so this is the next phase of this. All those extensions put at the end of the document. Ed Bickert is the guitarist who does all this the best. I’d be curious to see how Bill does it. Jordan Klemons bases a lot of his thing on the idea that Bill frequently is playing a shell in the left hand and triad in the right. Can you post the transcription?

[Mick-7]

I’d be curious to see how Bill does it. Jordan Klemons bases a lot of his thing on the idea that Bill frequently is playing a shell in the left hand and triad in the right. Can you post the transcription?

No, this one is in a print book, however I noticed a few transcriptions of Evans' solos on YouTube.

Are there good transcriptions of Bickert's comping on the net?

[Christian Miller]

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[AllanAllen]

(Adult students are a different challenge - most often it's about getting down to the actual doing.)

This is why I push getting to a jam session ASAP to everyone who stumbles to this website and asks where to start.

[pamosmusic]

No, this one is in a print book, however I noticed a few transcriptions of Evans' solos on YouTube.

Are there good transcriptions of Bickert's comping on the net?

This one’s got some good stuff. The same guy has several transcriptions that all look pretty spot on, at least at a glance.

That mix of two-note chords (perfect fourth or fifths on the 4-3 strings, representing the third and seventh of the chord), three-note voicings with a color note on top, or four-note voicings with two color notes is vintage Ed. I’m pretty comfortable with these chords but the way he mixes textures like that is just incredible. So hard to do.

[Mick-7]

Several bars of Larry Coryell's comping on his tune "Dragon's Gate", he plays only 2-3 note shell voicings throughout, except for the final two bars. The top line is the alto sax players solo.

[joe2758]

power chords and tab ftw.

[pauln]

You holding out on the circle of flat fifths?

[Mick-7]

I've been working quite a lot lately on an effective way of laying out rootless shell voicings for students. Over time, I've developed something of a sequence, and part of it has been figuring out how to practice them in a technical way. Part of the use case for these voicings is that they're easy to play, and thus easy to move, and I've found that the Mick Goodrick diatonic cycles (or an approximation of them) are great ways of just working on finding and moving the chords.

Peter, have you found that you practically have to get these chord patterns into muscle memory to integrate them into your playing?