Circus in Rhythm

[AllanAllen]

Is this Honeysuckle Rose changes?

I’ve been trying to shoehorn it into Rhythm Changes because of the name, but the bridge definitely isn’t right.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

| IV7 / / / | IV7 / / / | I / / / | I7 / / / | IV7 / / / | IV7 / / / | I / / / | II7 V7 |

not Honeysuckle bridge

very close to blues changes

TBH how can you recognize blues changes if you cannot hear those bridge changes?


EDIT: A section is rhythm changes.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Another high recommendation from my side on getting a copy of Philippe Baudoin's "Jazz : Mode d'Emploi : Volume 1" which is in French, but the chapter on essential typical 4-, 8-, and 16-measure jazz chord progressions can be understood without speaking the author's language. Those progressions are the 20+ progressions most jazz tunes can be reduced to according to e.g. Hal Galper or Bruce Forman.

Practice those patterns in all keys a lot until you have no more problems recognizing them. And think in Roman numerals instead of chord names.

[AllanAllen]

|
TBH how can you recognize blues changes if you cannot hear those bridge changes?

Honestly I expected Rhythm Changes, when it wasn't I tried playing it over Honeysuckle based on the guitar/piano break. Sounded like Freddy was going between 2 chords, so I thought maybe Honeysuckle.

I can hear blues changes because it's happening in a blues. I haven't put much work into learning changes by ear because of my lead sheet crutch. If I get lost in a tune I know, I know what to expect and I can get back in But learning changes by ear, well. I obviously gave up too early because a bunch of IV to I isn't hard to figure out.

Anyway, thanks. I learned two things from you, the bridge, and don't expect everything to be cookie cutter.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Honestly I expected Rhythm Changes, when it wasn't I tried playing it over Honeysuckle based on the guitar/piano break. Sounded like Freddy was going between 2 chords, so I thought maybe Honeysuckle.

I can hear blues changes because it's happening in a blues. I haven't put much work into learning changes by ear because of my lead sheet crutch. If I get lost in a tune I know, I know what to expect and I can get back in But learning changes by ear, well. I obviously gave up too early because a bunch of IV to I isn't hard to figure out.

Anyway, thanks. I learned two things from you, the bridge, and don't expect everything to be cookie cutter.

I was wondering today if my wording could be taken as a little bit too harsh and I am glad that you could accept my criticism as constructive as it was intended.

A Disclaimer: My own active ear training goes back to my 6th or 7th grade in school when I was probably the only one in my class who found it interesting being taught what a tonic, a subdominant or a dominant was and, taking classical piano lessons at that time, had to immediately try that out at home. That must have been ca. 40 years ago if my calculations are correct. (My passive ear training goes back to pre-natal imprint through my mother deliberately listening to a lot of classical music while being pregnant, more listening to classical music and a lot of singing as a toddler and recorder flute lessons from the age of six on.) And I haven't stopped since then. At the time I started to teach myself guitar at sixteen (35 years ago) I also read a lot of biographies which inspired me to learn songs by Chuck Berry and The Beatles by ear just like Hendrix, Beatles, Stones or Clapton did in their youth as well. Soon I started to discover jazz through blues as well and started to engage in music theory and jazz harmony. So my sense of hearing is rather advanced and developed after all those years and I do not want to sound arrogant to someone who is in a earlier stage of development.

I recommend anyone who has problems hearing changes to start simple. A Bob Dylan or Beatles tune is easier to decipher by ear than say Stella by Starlight.

What also helped me a lot to develop my hearing further was to use the drop 2 voicings that I had practiced a lot because of the Barry Harris sixth diminished stuff and practice chord progressions with all possible inversions with the closest voice leading available. That and practicing the progressions as simple (guitar) shell voicings through all keys. (If you learn to remember chord progressions by Roman numerals rather than by chord names the thing with practicing progressions as shell voicings through all keys is rather a question of when to do bigger jumps within a useful tonal and reachable range on the guitar. Apart from that transposing is simply a question of shifting the whole things a few frets up or down.)

[AllanAllen]

I was wondering today if my wording could be taken as a little bit too harsh and I am glad that you could accept my criticism as constructive as it was intended.

You know at first I was like, where does this guy get off. But then you know, it was a valid question. How can I hear my way though a blues and also not hear a bunch of IV to I movement. Listening with expectation, trying to put the tune in one of the cliche forms I already know, instead of listening to what they're playing like I would if I was learning a Fats Domino, Buck Owens or Chuck Berry song.

[Reg]

Allan.... an approach to being able to hear and even understand changes.... is to learn Chord Patterns.

It's like using the Building Block approach.

Start with single chord vamps within a set FORM... (number of sections or even just # of bars)

Then Two chord Vamps

then just keep going.

Really after you can play and hear... Four chord Vamps or patterns and their variations. You'll be able to hear almost all the tunes.

And the great thing about using Chord Patterns within Set Vamps.... your teaching your internal self how to feel rhythmic organization etc...

[AllanAllen]

I appreciate that Reg. I know a bunch of chord patters in roman numeral/nashville numbers system. It's been a long haul to start hearing them in tunes. But I'm getting there, slowly but surely, I'll move from playing jazz tunes to playing jazz.

[Christian Miller]

Another high recommendation from my side on getting a copy of Philippe Baudoin's "Jazz : Mode d'Emploi : Volume 1" which is in French, but the chapter on essential typical 4-, 8-, and 16-measure jazz chord progressions can be understood without speaking the author's language. Those progressions are the 20+ progressions most jazz tunes can be reduced to according to e.g. Hal Galper or Bruce Forman.

Practice those patterns in all keys a lot until you have no more problems recognizing them. And think in Roman numerals instead of chord names.

Jerry Coker’s Hearin the Changes and Conrad Corks Harmony with Lego bricks do the same thing and are in English


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[Christian Miller]

I would say, you can read a book or just study lots of tunes. I think the latter is better. I think I just learned to here the changes after a while.

Old tunes are best at first - less changes and usually less combinations.

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[AllanAllen]

I would say, you can read a book or just study lots of tunes. I think the latter is better. I think I just learned to here the changes after a while.

Old tunes are best at first - less changes and usually less combinations.

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I appreciate the book suggestions, I just don’t use books. I forced myself through Mel Bay book 1 and the Mickey Baker Book. Now that I can read a little and play a little I try to go by ear. I stopped checking with the Real Book because it’s always different/wrong. I tried looking up Topsy last night, the whole melody is a mess. They really should include the source recording.

[Christian Miller]

I appreciate the book suggestions, I just don’t use books. I forced myself through Mel Bay book 1 and the Mickey Baker Book. Now that I can read a little and play a little I try to go by ear. I stopped checking with the Real Book because it’s always different/wrong. I tried looking up Topsy last night, the whole melody is a mess. They really should include the source recording.

I 100% sympathise. Those books sit on my shelf and I recommend them, but the important concept behind them can be explained in a sentence ‘jazz standards rely very heavily on a small number of chord progressions.’

That info is helpful in itself

As far as charts go, the more the merrier, especially when they disagree.

I’ve heard at least three different melodies for Topsy lol.

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[AllanAllen]

I 100% sympathise. Those books sit on my shelf and I recommend them, but the important concept behind them can be explained in a sentence ‘jazz standards rely very heavily on a small number of chord progressions.’

That info is helpful in itself

As far as charts go, the more the merrier, especially when they disagree.

I’ve heard at least three different melodies for Topsy lol.

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I'm going to write a chart for my trumpet player, I like the Cozy Cole A section better than the RB version.

[Reg]

I'm going to write a chart for my trumpet player, I like the Cozy Cole A section better than the RB version.

Yea Allan.... your headed in good direction. ( I've spent most of my life writing and arranging charts and parts)
Eventually your not just trying to learn tunes... or copying the original version or one that you like... in a given moment.

Your deciding on what style or arrangement of a tune you want to play. Depending on where, when, why, who etc...

Eventually it's not just about what the tune is.... it's also about who's playing it. There are reasons why DJ's get many of the good paying shit gigs.

[AllanAllen]

Here’s my head transcription, transposed to Bb. I didn’t rewrite the C one, it’s like a rough draft.

I’m interested in feedback on rests and note time. I mean, any feedback is cool.

[AllanAllen]

Link to a recording of what I’m trying to convey with the sheet.

in case anyone cares

Dropbox

[supersoul]

It sounds like you play it right, but I think the timings are wrong on your chart. The first phrase starts on the 4 And of the previous bar. Something like this

[AllanAllen]

It sounds like you play it right, but I think the timings are wrong on your chart. The first phrase starts on the 4 And of the previous bar. Something like this

Thanks. That matches the cliche, but I wasn’t sure if I was hearing with my brain or my ears.

[supersoul]

I wasn't around my guitar yesterday when I looked at it. the rhythm is ok, but the notes I wrote were wrong. Think it's something like this

[AllanAllen]

I wasn't around my guitar yesterday when I looked at it. the rhythm is ok, but the notes I wrote were wrong. Think it's something like this

You're totally right, I was off... I'll change the sheet for next time, nobody will know at this gig.

What are you using to generate notation?

[supersoul]

What are you using to generate notation?

I'm just using Logic Pro and taking a screenshot. I downloaded Musescore but I haven't gotten around to trying it yet.

It's a cool tune! Never heard it before, but I love Lester Young. To me the bridge sounds like

| AbMaj / / / | / / / /
Fmaj / / / | / E Eb / <-- measure 4 the horns are sliding down, EMaj on beat 2, Eb on 2 &
| AbMaj / / / | / / / /
Fmaj / / / | Gm C7

[AllanAllen]

I've been on a strong Lester Young kick lately. There's a great 14 volume live set on Spotify.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I'm just using Logic Pro and taking a screenshot. I downloaded Musescore but I haven't gotten around to trying it yet.

It's a cool tune! Never heard it before, but I love Lester Young. To me the bridge sounds like

| AbMaj / / / | / / / /
Fmaj / / / | / E Eb / <-- measure 4 the horns are sliding down, EMaj on beat 2, Eb on 2 &
| AbMaj / / / | / / / /
Fmaj / / / | Gm C7

Both Logic and Musescore can do the exchange format MusicXML. So you can export your Logic sores and import them into Musescore. I do not know how well that works and how much editing is necessary after that but I guess it will be easier than typing everything from scratch.

[AllanAllen]

The latest attempt.

[AllanAllen]

MuseScore is pretty cool. I transposed it down an octave so it fits on the page, and with one click moved it to Bb.

Unfortunately I tied the chords to the rests in some spots so if I clean those up it deletes my chords. It was worth it to learn the program.