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To those who play fingerstyle on nylon-string/classical guitar and on steel-string guitar : do you use rest strokes on steel strings too, for the same reasons and do you feel the sound difference between the techniques is comparable on both types of string?
EDIT: I'm very much in the no-nails camp, so let's consider the above in the context of playing with flesh.Last edited by RJVB; 11-08-2022 at 02:22 PM.
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11-07-2022 04:56 PM
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Not with CG groomed/maintained nails. The care and maintenance of proper, well-maintained nails are essential to a good CG sound. As a hybrid player, I only use nails on my CG . . . EG is strictly a pick.
Originally Posted by RJVB
Marinero
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I don't use a plectrum (flat pick) at all, preferring to use my fingers. However, at times I do entertain the idea of getting used to a flat pick or at least a thumb pick, and probably eventually will.
Fingerstyle is really a very loose thing in terms of technique, while classical playing is a very well defined and highly developed technique (though there are somewhat differing schools within classical technique). While it is true that some fingerstyle players do the work to develop classical technique, many don't, or only partially adopt a few aspects of classical technique.
There is a very noticeable difference in the resulting sound between those who work to develop classical technique and those who don't.
I remember sitting in The Podium (a now sadly gone) Twin Cities acoustic guitar shop on a Saturday morning and listening to the classical guitar students who came over from the university looking for a classical guitar, and the non-trained fingerstyle players. The classical players could make most any of the classical guitars in stock sound like a "cannon", filling the room with very well developed and articulated notes, while the typical fingerstyle player on a classical guitar would sound VERY anemic by comparison. Pierre Bensusan would be a prime example of a steel string fingerstyle player who does very much pay attention to the technique needed to shape every note and he stands out as a result.
It takes YEARS of study focused on technique and technical exercises such as Sor or Carulli to develop that technique, and many of us (including me) don't have the patience or desire to do so.
We fingerstyle players typically don't venture into rest strokes or the development of specific shaping of nails. For us, it is free strokes and just clipping the nails rather crudely to a length that we can work with - short on the fretting hand and somewhat longer on the picking hand. I have been working on not having nails of any length on my picking hand and prefer not having to rely at all on finger picks.
The only "classical" technique I have worked to acquire is playing the guitar with the neck up at a 45 degree (or so) angle and not planting any fingers on the top at all. These two ideas make playing much more comfortable for me. I always use a guitar strap, so that it doesn't matter if I am sitting or standing, the guitar relative to my body is always the same.
Tony
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Erm, doh? Originally Posted by tbeltrans
No argument from me here (I'd add that even music school students with just a few years of practice can make a CG sound at least as loud as an acoustic guitar).
But was this supposed to answer my question? If so you lost me (sorry).
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Probably not, but your post got me thinking and that was the content of my post. If it did address anything you asked about, that is good. If not, well hopefully it made for some interesting reading. Threads typically do have a habit of wandering here and there, and that can keep them interesting. Usually, among the wandering, the OP's question is answered or the OP's points are addressed. Originally Posted by RJVB
Erm, doh? No argument from me here (I'd add that even music school students with just a few years of practice can make a CG sound at least as loud as an acoustic guitar).
But was this supposed to answer my question? If so you lost me (sorry).
Tony
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the effectiveness of rest strokes comes from the downward motion which imparts more force through the bridge, better making the soundboard vibrate. So to the extent that you can get a downward pressure on a free stroke, the difference will start to blur
Additionally rest strokes tend to be faster as there is a single, downward motion with gravity and relaxation restoring the finger back to its starting position - so there work on free strokes with only a single downward motion - being conscious not to use any muscles to move the finger back up, just let gravity and relaxation restore the finger back to plucking position
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That's the impression I got but I didn't want to sound like congratulating myself on getting you thinking Originally Posted by tbeltrans
I don't mind if this thread wanders (hard to expect it won't given the subject) but it'd be nice if I did get an answer.
BTW the question was a reaction to a discussion with my teacher. I'd taken my archtop to class yesterday because I was just back from a trip on which I'd taken that guitar along, and I mentioned that I felt that the piece we're working on (Llobet's canço del lladre) sounded quite nice on steel strings. My teacher disagreed, in part because she didn't hear the mellower sound of the rest strokes she has me using for the melody. TBH, I had interpreted that suggestion primarily as a means to make the melody stand out more clearly (which indeed it does, "automagically"), not so much as a way to get a rounder sound. Of course that aspect also isn't helped by my current mastery of the technique which seems to bring out all the fret buzz my Cordoba has to offer ...
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For classical on an archtop, check these out...
With the fingers...
With the plectrum...
Your teacher may be interested in seeing these too.
Tony
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Indeed, pulling upwards (by grabbing with the flesh, not really putting the finger under the string) gives a similar sound, and I've probably used that for a long time already to get a rounder sound. The attack is different though. Originally Posted by BWV
I'd be curious to know it that's what really happens (one can be surprised about what muscles are [not] being used). Besides ... gravity restoring fingers to the starting position of a downward movement, do I really read you correctly?being conscious not to use any muscles to move the finger back up, just let gravity and relaxation restore the finger back to plucking position
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I think I must have seen most of this kind of video available on youtube. I'm not really convinced by the Chapdelaine performances (there's another one on the blue Ribbecke) but player aside ... One still hears steel strings. Typically less nasal sounding (in the trebles) than the average flat-top, and archtops can have the same kind of immediacy that classical guitars also have. But (wound) steel strings cannot really sound as plush and dark as wound nylon strings can, and that's probably even more noticeable on archtops than on flat-tops. Originally Posted by tbeltrans
So if you don't like these sonic aspects of steel strings it's hard to prefer a classical piece played on them rather than on nylon strings.
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"Additionally rest strokes tend to be faster as there is a single, downward motion with gravity and relaxation restoring the finger back to its starting position . . " BWM
You said this backwards: the fastest stroke is a free stroke since the finger is allowed to return(spring back) to its original position without "resting" on the next string. Can you imagine how slow a tremolo passage would be using rest strokes? Can you explain what you meant?
Marinero
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Actually, decent classical and flamenco players have blazing fast rest stroke as well as free stroke playing. Originally Posted by Marinero
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Re: classical music played on steel strings, I've started a thread on the Delcamp forum, which actually led to some interested/ing contributions:
classical works that might actually sound just as well with steel strings? - Classical Guitar
I'm still enough of a HIP afficionado to think that the period when compositions were written comes into play. Those written before steel-strung guitars existed or were common enough to be used in "more classy" popular music are less likely to sound at home on steel strings.
I once asked a classical guitar composer (Annette Kruisbrink) to tell me which of 2 versions of a piece she preferred, played on nylon strings or played on steel strings. For that piece she preferred the steel strings, because of their longer sustain.
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If we're considering tremolo on a single string, a rest stroke approach has the advantage you don't have to worry about not hitting the next lower string (in a way that makes it sound). Originally Posted by James W
But please, let's not make this another discussion about which kind of stroke is better ... unless it's also to discuss the on nylon vs. on steel string difference(s)
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I believe the normal is nylon strings: apoyando, steel strings: tirando! (Meaning rest strokes only on nylon strings).
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I see you edited the OP. Since I'm very much in the nails camp, I'm afraid I can't answer your question, sorry. Originally Posted by RJVB
If we're considering tremolo on a single string, a rest stroke approach has the advantage you don't have to worry about not hitting the next lower string (in a way that makes it sound).
But please, let's not make this another discussion about which kind of stroke is better ... unless it's also to discuss the on nylon vs. on steel string difference(s)
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Yes, relax after plucking and let the finger return and prepare for the next note, here is a video Originally Posted by RJVB
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True. Not knowing that you had already seen these and others like them, I simply posted them for examples of classical played on an archtop plectrum and fingerstyle. Personally, I prefer a warm tone for solo chord melody from an archtop. For classical guitar, I like the warm tones of a decent classical guitar (i.e. nylon string traditional, not crossover which generally sounds thinner/brighter to me). Originally Posted by RJVB
Tony
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For some reason that I honestly can't explain, I have always found the sound of classical guitar tremolo technique annoying. I can't listen to it for more than a few seconds before looking for something else. I know people work quite hard to develop it as smoothly as possible, so it is a shame I can't enjoy the fruits of their labor. Originally Posted by RJVB
If we're considering tremolo on a single string, a rest stroke approach has the advantage you don't have to worry about not hitting the next lower string (in a way that makes it sound).
But please, let's not make this another discussion about which kind of stroke is better ... unless it's also to discuss the on nylon vs. on steel string difference(s)
Tony
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There's a whole school of classical playing where you try to approximate the sound of apoyando (rest stroke) while playing tirando. The whole point is to get the string to move from the guitar body upwards (as it does in rest strokes) and not sideways (as it does in free strokes). Basically you try to overreach the fingers a bit and pluck the string from underneath. But of course one has to know the sound of rest strokes to try to approximate it, so you still have to practice them as well.
I never managed to get good in finger rest strokes (although I play like that with the pick ), so I use it a lot.
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Originally Posted by James W
Playing scales using the rest stroke is not the same as tremolo. It is physically impossible to play a traditional rest stroke faster than a free stroke for Classical guitarists based on the physics of the hand in relation to the guitar. However, Flamenco players probably do it best. Here's my friend Douglas Niedt with an excellent rest stroke tutorial.
Marinero
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What makes you think this? Originally Posted by Marinero
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Because it's simple physics: a finger coming to rest on the adjacent string versus a finger with no obstruction and executing freely is indisputably faster. One would need to defy the law of physics. If you were trained in CG as you have mentioned previously, this is one of the first lessons taught to students as a fundamental to CG. Are you looking for an exception to confuse someone who is looking for an honest answer? Here's the very talented Ana Vidovic playing Tarrega's "Recuerdos de la Alhambra"-- try playing this with your imaginary rest stroke tremolo. Enjoy. Originally Posted by James W
Marinero
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Law of physics - what are you on about? Look in the video above in reply no. 17 above, he clearly says rest stroke is easier because it's easier to relax between notes. This accords with my own experience. Originally Posted by Marinero
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As a CG player who took a break (time off - not a nail), my returning to playing guitar took a lot of inspiration from Rob Mackillop's site. He plays without nails and makes a good case for it as Sor's original M.O. (from memory... so I may be wrong there). For those of us often engaged in working with out hands, nails aren't an option. Tried it, failed and gave it a heave ho. Yes, there's a sacrifice or a limit or whatever. Fine. Done. But there are plenty for whom the nail sound is a "fail" as well. Sadly, I'm not one of them, but I get their point.
If you're playing for yourself... and YOUR aesthetic, who cares? Rob will point you toward sounding great without nails. Not the same, but still great. That said, I don't sound like Rob, but then I don't aspire to the CG rep anymore anyway. My bit is more of an Earl Klugh kind of rep: Jazz or whatever with a CG instrument... and with plenty of CG lessons under my belt, but spending a lot more time with my archtop. Anyway, have a go at Rob's writing here if you haven't already done so: Technique | rmclassicalguitar
Have fun!
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