The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi.
    I've owned a C10 Cedar for about 6-7 years and think it's a great product for the price...
    But, since it came with Hard Tension (Sav Corums) and Cordoba suggests keeping with them to fully move the top and rest, the way it was meant to, until about 10 days ago I kept it that way, except using DiAdarrio EJ46 HTs instead, as they seem to outlast the Savs, especially the D string.....
    Problem was, my hands not being that large usually got quite a workout on them, fretting and plucking them..leading to LH fatigue / pain...
    So, 10 days ago I put on a set of DiAd Med.Tension EJ45s..What I find is the output of the guitar is no-less strong and in fact somewhat more sensual in sound..This has made me quite happy...But there is a side effect:
    The tension on the neck is less, nut to saddle, so the truss rod straightens out. This in turn causes a bit of buzzing and somewhat less volume due to too low action, now... Now I'm back doing the "Back and forth truss-rod Dance"..Too low, buzzy/weak, too high begins feeling like HTs again !! But I will get it better tonight..It's back to too low... So's I'll loosen the T-rod a spit ( 3/32" whatever deg that is...What, 1-2 degs.? )..This will return the relief-arc in the fingerboard and return some ooomph to her..But then, yes, a tad harder to fret..
    I am curious as to what you've experienced with your C10 - C12 concerning these variables V Cordoba's HT advice/claim + your hand strength..
    M
    Last edited by MarkInLA; 02-03-2022 at 06:21 PM.

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  3. #2

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    Hi, M,
    I assume you're referring to the "Crossover" model? If so, this is NOT a Classical Guitar in build or intent:
    A reduced 48mm nut width, 16" thin profiled C-shaped mahogany neck will feel familiar to steel string and electric players-Cordoba).
    And, a truss rod? So, your problem is in your choice of instrument and their advice should be heeded since they built it. However, if you're a Classical or hybrid player and want to enjoy your playing, get rid of the guitar and buy a Classical guitar that will accommodate any tension strings that are most comfortable for your playing style. When I first started playing CG over 30 years ago, I used medium tension strings. And, the transition from an EG to CG was a difficult adjustment due to differences in string height and feel, neck width, and discarding improper technique for proper technique needed to play CG. Today, I use D'ADddario EJ46 HT and Savarez Corums HT on my CG's but it took years to become comfortable playing the higher tension and the necessary muscle-building/technique needed. However, the difference in sound is very noticeable and it's worth the effort.
    So, for me, your options are clear: 1.) play HT strings and be miserable with your instrument or 2.) get rid of the guitar. Based on your concerns and issues, I'd favor option 2. If you'd like some recommendations for good CG's in the same price range or less, let me know. Good luck.
    Marinero

    P.S. Sorry for the glitch in punctuation but I can't seem to omit the spacing. M
    Last edited by Marinero; 02-05-2022 at 09:58 AM. Reason: punctuation

  4. #3

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    You assume wrong ! I said C10 .. nothing about 'crossover' .....It's a full size 650...

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkInLA
    You assume wrong ! I said C10 .. nothing about 'crossover' .....It's a full size 650...
    Sorry I bothered you.
    Marinero

  6. #5

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    Construction

    The C10 is built with a traditional Spanish fan bracing and Spanish heel construction to allow for a responsive soundboard and full vibration throughout the entire body. The solid Indian rosewood back and sides provide a fat low-end, with a bright, crisp treble response and complex overtones. The C10 has a C-shape neck and flat fingerboard characteristic of traditional classical guitars, but also includes modern features such as a two-way truss rod for long-term neck stability.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Sorry I bothered you.
    Marinero
    You bothered me not..
    I was only surprised that someone sounding so masterful of the situ would assume I meant other than a full sized instrument !..

    All whom I've ever dealt with concerning Cordoba to any serious extent and certainly those who own them, when saying "C10 Cedar" (or merely C10 or C12 for that matter) have known/agreed, until you, sir, that we're talking their full sized model, of cedar or spruce top, rosewood bk & sds, ebony board (mine's dark brown w/orange-y impurities, ironically making the shape of a sideways 'M' bet. 3rd & 4th frets ! ) + along with what bohemia46 offered above.
    Or, posed another way: I said C10 and you went and assumed that I was talking 'Parlor' or 'Crossover' or 'cut away' or, this, or that.....

    Now,.... concerning your advice to buy a new one in that price range: Are you going to give me/buy mine for $900.00 first so I can afford one of the one's that "will accommodate any tension strings" ?...


    Finally: I reported I liked my C10 and that the Ej45 NT sound nice...What I was aiming more at is that because there's now less tension, I will be looking forward to the 'T-rod Dance' again to find the sweet spot where action, volume, playability, sensuality all are in full play again, as I've found in the past and was curious what other C10 owners have experienced concerning these parameters..Then you quick;y leapt in..
    But, no, you did not bother me...What makes/model guitars did you have in mind ?..You never know......

    Sorry if I bothered you.....

    M
    Last edited by MarkInLA; 02-07-2022 at 11:02 PM.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkInLA
    You bothered me not..
    I was only surprised that someone sounding so masterful of the situ would assume I meant other than a full sized instrument !..

    All whom I've ever dealt with concerning Cordoba to any serious extent and certainly those who own them, when saying "C10 Cedar" (or merely C10 or C12 for that matter) have known/agreed, until you, sir, that we're talking their full sized model, of cedar or spruce top, rosewood bk & sds, ebony board (mine's dark brown w/orange-y impurities, ironically making the shape of a sideways 'M' bet. 3rd & 4th frets ! ) + along with what bohemia46 offered above.
    Or, posed another way: I said C10 and you went and assumed that I was talking 'Parlor' or 'Crossover' or 'cut away' or, this, or that.....

    Now,.... concerning your advice to buy a new one in that price range: Are you going to give me/buy mine for $900.00 first so I can afford one of the one's that "will accommodate any tension strings" ?...


    Finally: I reported I liked my C10 and that the Ej45 NT sound nice...What I was aiming more at is that because there's now less tension, I will be looking forward to the 'T-rod Dance' again to find the sweet spot where action, volume, playability, sensuality all are in full play again, as I've found in the past and was curious what other C10 owners have experienced concerning these parameters..Then you quick;y leapt in..
    But, no, you did not bother me...What makes/model guitars did you have in mind ?..You never know......

    Sorry if I bothered you.....

    M
    OK, M,
    Let me be simple. If you cannot adjust your instrument with the truss rod to accommodate differing string heights/action, it is defective and needs repair or in a worst-case scenario . . . replacement. The purpose of a truss rod is to have the ability to adjust a neck after it has been set. The reason the majority of CG's do not use a truss rod is that the nylon strings do not create the same tension that a steel-string creates . . . ergo, there is no need for a truss rod on a properly made CG. However, there is a very cost-effective reason for mass-produced CG's using a truss rod in that if the neck is improperly set on the assembly line or by an inexperienced worker, generally, the guitar does not have to be disassembled and the neck reset. Final adjustments can be made by the factory or the new owner. However, in your case, according to your remarks, this cannot be done.
    So, my solution for you is to sell your guitar by whatever means possible and buy a quality used CG and before purchase--have it checked out and certified by a CG luthier. For my money, the best CG's in a moderate price range are made in Spain. However, what you don't want to do is to buy a student model but rather their mid-priced/grade instruments in cedar or spruce--your choice. I am a big fan of Esteve Guitars and I own a IGR08 cedar that I bought new from a vendor that knew little or nothing about CG's and got a great price in late 90's money($800. plus a Humicase--retail price $1800.). I use it for my jobbing guitar and recently replaced the tuners and a new bridge made in real bone. It plays as well as my Brune or LoPrinzi Artist model(4-5K) and I would never sell the guitar. Other Spanish guitar builders are Alhambra, Raimundo, and Ramierez where a quality instrument can be purchased used for $800-1200. And, if you're in LA, you're in the land of Classical Guitar vendors. A good source would be to contact the Los Angeles Classical Guitar Society and there will be members there that can lead you to a quality used instrument and a luthier. Good luck!
    Marinero

  9. #8

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    A truss rod is for adjusting the "relief" from string to frets, it is not to "to adjust a neck" and has little to do with having to reset a neck.

    Ignorance is in evidence and time for a reality check and a bit of research.

    Resetting a neck on a classical guitar, specifically with the traditional "Spanish heel" is extremely difficult.

    I would suggest taking the guitar to a skilled luthier who specializes in Classical and Flamenco guitars. Have him/her take a look and if necessary, deal with the saddle and nut height to adjust "the action", and in the case of the Cordoba, adjust the truss rod for the relief.

    Good luck.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by bohemian46
    A truss rod is for adjusting the "relief" from string to frets, it is not to "to adjust a neck" and has little to do with having to reset a neck.

    Ignorance is in evidence and time for a reality check and a bit of research.

    Resetting a neck on a classical guitar, specifically with the traditional "Spanish heel" is extremely difficult.

    I would suggest taking the guitar to a skilled luthier who specializes in Classical and Flamenco guitars. Have him/her take a look and if necessary, deal with the saddle and nut height to adjust "the action", and in the case of the Cordoba, adjust the truss rod for the relief.

    Good luck.
    I'm going to make this simple. A truss rod has the ability to bend the neck of a guitar and tightening a truss rod can easily lower the height of strings above the fretboard without any alteration to the nut or bridge/saddle. String buzz is a consequence. However, this is not the function of a truss rod which is to counteract the tension/bow on a neck when strings are tensioned. A truss rod should also be able to compensate for differing tensions of strings(the OP's apparently does not). It also adds strength to the neck for the high-tension steel strings usually found on EG's/Folk Guitars. Since the OP made no mention of changing his saddle or nut(I assumed it to be factory installed) then the truss rod in question is either not functioning properly or inaccurately adjusted since builders usually set a saddle nut high to allow for future adjustments/lowering if needed. I assumed it to be the former since the OP did not mention any alterations to his instrument. So, when a vendor tells an owner of a guitar that the guitar was built for HT strings, why not disclose that in their product information? This, however, does not seem plausible . . .especially for a mass-produced instrument being sold to a wide market and level of players. Generally, only high-level players play HT CG strings.
    Secondly, I never mentioned resetting the neck of the OP's guitar since it would not be cost-effective on an inexpensive guitar. But, in a manufacturer's assembly line process, if it is not severe, a truss rod-designed guitar could make it playable and save the vendor money and time. But, why would CG luthiers use a truss rod when there is no practical reason for one based on string tension potentials since the Spanish heel is as close to perfection as possible. So, the context in which I mentioned resetting the neck was if a luthier made this serious error, he would probably not reset the neck unless it was a very expensive model and was pre-sold. It would probably end up in a corner of his shop when time warranted the repair. But, my remarks had nothing to do with the OP.
    Finally, I own 2 1966 vintage Gibson's with truss rods purchased new and 4 CG's with the "Spanish Heel." I do all the repairs on my instruments including replacing/shaping saddles, nuts, tuners, electronics, and minor cosmetic repairs. I am in the process of rebuilding my brother's 1966 Gibson ES125TCD which I have some interesting pix if anyone is interested. I have nothing further to say on this subject which took a very strange turn from the start..
    Marinero

    P.S. String height from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the strings is generally set for Low E/4mm and High E/3mm. All my CG's are set at slightly below 4mm for the Bass string and 3.5mm for the high E string. This gives, for my playing style, greater clarity/speed for chords utilizing the basses and exceptional clarity and projection for notes above the 12th fret with clear octave harmonics for both the trebles and basses. M

  11. #10

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    Marinero
    I have been with guitars, steel, nylon, jazz, classical beginning circa 1963.. I also was a bass player professionally for some 20-ish years..(work died away/quit that) and just play nylon Guit now.. I play several concert level pieces and the etudes...I know all that is needed to know about guitar action setting, saddles, nuts, t-rod/no t-rod, back bows/reverse bows, high frets/low frets, cedar/spruce, dead notes/wolf tones, etc., etc..
    Yes, if I had $ to burn I would probably find a truss rod-less all Spanish guitar just to experience the diff... But, my C10 is loud, deep, expressive, and intonates as perfectly as one could expect from a well made chordophone (<wiki).. and I am basically happy with her some 7+ years now...
    My OP was only aimed at the fact that because I did remove the HTs Cordoba recommends and put on NTs, the neck bow is going to straighten some, in turn causing the need to re-set the truss rod I will, and now have, done.
    I was only asking other C10-12 owners their experience with this change from hard to normal tension strings... that dance we t-rodders gotta do sumptimes ! THAT, plus whether or not they continue to agree with Codba that 'only Sav HTs on this guitar' (I vote 'NO', btw..).
    I frequently think they merely made a quid pro quo with Savarez.......'to........exclusive with......their products if ' = lifting Sav sales......maybe.

    I greatly appreciate your taking interest in my situ.. But for your sake please leave it at this now and see if others might chime in over my original concerns..
    No reason to explain yourself further.
    Thanks, M
    Last edited by MarkInLA; 02-10-2022 at 10:14 PM.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkInLA
    My OP was only aimed at the fact that because I did remove the HTs Cordoba recommends and put on NTs, the neck bow is going to straighten some, in turn causing the need to re-set the truss rod I will, and now have, done.
    I was only asking other C10-12 owners their experience with this change from hard to normal tension strings... that dance we t-rodders gotta do sumptimes ! THAT, plus whether or not they continue to agree with Codba that 'only Sav HTs on this guitar' (I vote 'NO', btw..).
    I frequently think they merely made a quid pro quo with Savarez.......'to........exclusive with......their products if ' = lifting Sav sales......maybe.
    Different guitar, but I bought my Cordoba GK Studio Negra in 2013. It came with the same Savarez HT strings. After I wore those out I changed to D'Addario EJ43s with no problem. I only remember adjusting the truss rod once, and that was when I still had the original strings on, lol.

  13. #12

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    Yikes ! EJ43s !! On a Cordoba that came with [there ya go !] the heaviest Savs !! But it just must be that Crdba has a deal and throws em' on all their nylon / gut guitars as a common way of guaranteeing customers hear the most potential, say, volume it can muster acoustically, as well as just a blanket part they attach...
    But of course since your's is/can be amped may as well have it feel more like a jazz guitar anyway; amp making up for loss of any volume...

    Again I will emphasize: Since I finally went back permanently to EJ45 (norm tension) my C10 is still loud enough, easier to play, and I have the action right in the sweet spot of high enough saddle for no buzzing, and neck relief the same for string spinning in nodes...
    The most important thing is my LH fingers / muscles have quit aching..

    In conclusion: Cordoba C10-12-type owners need not remain with the Savarez Corum HTs contrary to what they imply.. It's still a Spanish designed, built, wooden/bone/ebony board/metal fret/guitar..of the chordophone [<wiki] family...
    Far as truss rod goes: I think if Stradivari and luthiers had routers and could have added iron truss rods they would have... What do you do if, IF you HAVE an $8,000.00 guitar and the relief goes bad ? + I don't think the neck's density/weight has much influence on the sound...
    Remember too, while you are playing you are muting any vibrations thru it by your thumb in back as well as 1234 fingerings atop it...
    M
    Last edited by MarkInLA; 02-16-2022 at 08:43 PM.

  14. #13

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    And some may wonder why bother attempting to add a reality check to some BS pedantic blather.

    There is always someone who MUST have the last word..

    Marinero.. look in the mirror.

    Exhibitionist BS.

  15. #14

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    Latest report on all the above:

    I finally Finally FINALLY have found the perfect truss rod setting on my C10 while I have medium tension DiAdd EJ45s on her !!
    I'd been doing a long dance setting it this way, that way, this string type, that string type, over and over tightening, loosening, up, down.....
    I now have the right action and volume and 99.5% sure I have found that sweet spot for this guitar and without Sav HT Corums on her....
    Now all I'll need to do is buy new DiAdd EJ45s when it's time...The marathon-like dance is over, at least for a Cordoba C10.....

  16. #15

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    Congrats... now play !!

  17. #16

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    A VERY VERY belated thank you to ALL who agreed or disagreed with me so far...

    Currently I am awaiting delivery of D'addario EJ43 light tensions to make a final test as to whether or not I will even continue playing classical guitar..Reason is, I quit altogether about 3 mos ago due to pain in my LH causing me to make too many mistakes..I'd just had ENOUGH and quit !!

    3 Days ago I ordered the light tensions to see both if my LH fingers are happier with them, and if they will even drive the soundboard enough on a C10.
    If all goes well I will likely make a return to my Villa Lobos, Barrios, Tarrega, Lauro, Sor, et al...If turns out to be more drudgery I will either quit entirely or only play my Ibanez jazz guitar with a pick (which never bears hand pain; the thin neck and low action)....
    M
    Last edited by MarkInLA; 06-09-2022 at 04:51 PM.

  18. #17

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    Hey I hope those ej43s work out for ya! I started using them for the lighter feel because I was using it for a restaurant gig and the guy I played with liked to have a long first set, lol... and... I thought the studio negra was pretty lightly built and didn't need those heavy strings, maybe I'd save the top from warping a bit.

  19. #18

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    WELP ! HERE IT IS :
    The ej43s seem to be a bit weak for the C10...And as they are not that much more easy on my left hand, right now I believe I'd go back to the normal tensions..
    On top of this, having played the pieces I have for so very long a time now, re-playing them has become tedious to a point where I may be finally saying good bye to classical guitar, but will likely stick with jazz on my Ibanez af151f as the jazz neck is kinder to my LH and improvising allows me to do what I want as opposed to repeating over and over the rigid form of classical works..
    I will say, though, all the above could change in a heartbeat and find me back deep in the classical guitar repertoire.
    For now though I'm probably hangin' up my spurs.
    Thanks to all involved in this thread. M
    Last edited by MarkInLA; 06-17-2022 at 09:58 PM.

  20. #19

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    THIS JUST IN !!
    Played C10 in village Sq. last night...I felt the light tension strings didn't quite carry the 'bigness' of the axe..I juz dunt kno !!
    If I return to EJ46 Med. then I face some LH finger pain...Been thinking could be time to finding a lighter guitar with no truss rod might give me what I need. I.E. to remain with lights as they certainly are easier on my fingers..One thing though, is, it's tough to bear down W/ RH rest-strokes (apoyando?) and big plucks with 43s. On the other hand, strummed or up-stroke thrums are sweet with LTs !!
    I do have a Taurus flamenco with pesky friction pegs I used to love way before I had the C10. It is light cypress with 100% flat/wide ebony board/no pos markers... I C O U L D pay a luthier to convert it to geared tuning for way less than a new guitar, or sell it for about $800 to go toward new classical such as a (is it ?) Kramona, something with no truss-rod...

    btw: Cordoba claims finger boards are flat..Not exactly so. They have a teensy radius I never really took fully to, either..
    The Taurus is dead F L A T thick ebony board with a shallow D neck..Period ! I did always prefer that and had to get used to the Cordoba style board, C neck and thick frets...
    Last edited by MarkInLA; 07-03-2022 at 06:30 PM.