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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    That still confuses me as Don included the Romatic era in his definition of classical music.

    Stopping at 1850 seems arbitrary, but as we know, labeling music almost always is subject to the arbitrary whims of those doing the labeling.

    Here is Don's definition posted earlier: "Classical, or "European Art Music" frequently refers to the Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionist - and beyond."
    I think that you're getting your knickers in a knot over nothing. I simply wanted:

    1. To be clear about what was unequivocally classical and that is Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, or at least early-to-mid Beethoven, and then the Romantic emerged (thanks to him. I probably have my history off a little on the edges there.) So it follows that lute/guitar composers of the same era align.

    2. To avoid tasking myself with listing every classical lute/guitar composer from John Dowland through whomever is composing as we speak.

    That's all.

    You see, some people will tell you that both the pre-Bach and post Tarrega periods (roughly) aren't really "classical" as such. That opens a can of worms that I'd just assume not engage in, although others are free to have at it.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    I think that you're getting your knickers in a knot over nothing. I simply wanted:

    1. To be clear about what was unequivocally classical and that is Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, or at least early-to-mid Beethoven, and then the Romantic emerged (thanks to him. I probably have my history off a little on the edges there.) So it follows that lute/guitar composers of the same era align.

    2. To avoid tasking myself with listing every classical lute/guitar composer from John Dowland through whomever is composing as we speak.

    That's all.

    You see, some people will tell you that both the pre-Bach and post Tarrega periods (roughly) aren't really "classical" as such. That opens a can of worms that I'd just assume not engage in, although others are free to have at it.
    First, I don't wear knickers. Not my kink.

    Second, it is hard for me to think of classical guitar without Tarrega. YMMV

    Third, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I sometimes play my Thames Classical with a pick, sometimes with fingers (I don't like nails, consider me in the "Tarrega" school ) I also play classical on guitars with steel strings (flattops and archtops) , sometimes with a pick, sometimes with fingers. I am an iconoclast, I can't help it.

  4. #53

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    Iconoclast ... another one?

    Much as Bach, Weiss et al. played on classical guitar give me the shivers I can appreciate this a whole lot better:



    One of the arguments *against* period performance practice is that [composer] X would have embraced and used any contemporary instrument instead of sticking with relics from the past. That's certainly true for Bach ... and I'm even quite certain he'd have seen that the classical guitar even as it exists today is basically that, a relic from the late 19th century .

  5. #54

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    Sorry, but that’s not entirely true. Bach did live long enough to test a fortepiano, but preferred his harpsichord. The main point is that even if he had loved the fortepiano, he would have written different music on it, being as sensitive as he was to instrumentation.

  6. #55

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    Actually, his favourite keyboard was the clavichord, which allowed vibrato by wobbling the keys. I’ve tried one, and it was extremely quiet, making a lute sound loud by comparison. You’d have to wait until the 1970s to get another keyboard that could do that.

  7. #56

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    Did I claim he did test a fortepiano? I seem to recall reading that he did at least follow the development of a precursor instrument but this is a corner of the music universe that never really "passionated" me so I'd have to check with a friend who probably knows all about it.

    Your argument about him having written different things for a new instrument isn't wrong, but that doesn't exclude the possibility he'd have adapted older works. Presumably on the fly, too After all, he does have a solid track record of reusing his own works, sometimes with hardly any changes. Not to mention the works of older/other composers he admired.

    Re: clavichord: beautiful instrument (aforementioned friend has one, knowing him possibly a Nuñez). Not sure if it was his favourite keyboard instrument, or his son CPE's. I think a good one can sound loud enough for chamber music. There's an older recording of CPE's gamba sonatas where a clavichord is used for the keyboard part - IIRC by Siegried Pank. Evidently I have no idea how much mastering went into creating that record by it's very poetic (if not a little ponderous).
    EDIT: the 70s? What instrument are you thinking of, the Rhodes piano rather than the (older) Moog synthesizer I suppose?

  8. #57

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    FWIW, I just came across a certain YT recording of a William Bay tango and realised I'd forgotten to include tango in my earlier list of music I can see as classical or labelled as such in a near future. AFAIK Astor Piazzolla already recognition in classical music spheres, rightfully so IMHO.

  9. #58

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    Wow,
    Have we arrived at Pluto, yet . . . Scotty? Some bizarre takes on CM which infers a blurring of genres which is the exception rather than the norm. CM is both the repertoire and the technique. And, further, to say/infer that anything other than the music from the Classical Era is not Classical, say Romantic, Medieval, disregards the legacy/tradition/history of CM as a genre. So:
    1. Music from the Baroque, Romantic, Renaissance, etc. are all forms of Classical Music. CM is the
    music of Western Europe and it uses standard musical notation, Classical forms as the sonata,
    symphony, concerto, etc; require accurate performances of the written music which separates it
    from other "looser" musical forms.
    2. Classical music requires Classical technique and is not played with a pick, a rusty nail, or grandma's hairpin. Contemporary students for the last few hundred years attend conservatories and degreed university music programs and players from the past studied with a respected Classical musician/mentor as was the case with all the greats--sorry, Youtubers!
    So, people are entitled to whatever beliefs they want to accept but it doesn't make them correct . . .
    they're just their beliefs. Can CM be played with a pick? Yes. However, it is not strictly CM since it is not played with Classical technique. It is CM played with a pick. As I said above, CM needs 1.) Classical repertoire, and 2.) Classical technique. Simple.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. I know it is fashionable and "hip" to tear down walls today but there are some things in life that have standards. CM is one of them. And, once again, for my devoted cadre of gadflies . . . Mikko is a fine musician . . . just not a Classical Musician. M

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Classical music requires Classical technique and is not played with a pick
    Except when it IS supposed to be played with a pick.


  11. #60

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    You seem principled, but are you principled enough?

    - strict adherence to the written score is very (late) 19th century. The further you go back in time, the less this is appropriate, unless you want to sound like an automaton. In fact, composers in earlier eras relied on the fact that people performing their music were familiar with the applicable conventions of interpretation. A ciphered basso continuo line is really not at all that different from the kind of scores or cue sheets you see in "popular music" nowadays.
    - classical technique ... but which? That too evolved. Do we have to play compositions for plectrum lute without the plectrum nowadays, if we want to be able to call it classical music?
    - technique, again - you seem to exclude any composition for prepared piano/whatever. (I tend not to recognise that as music at all, but I know it's supposed to be classical music )

    Classical music isn't any more sacred than other styles of music. It better not be if it's not to become a fossile. But don't worry, there'll probably always be a market for yet another recording or concert of whatever piece you fance from what I like to call the "Iron Repertoire" because the world apparently always waits for that interpretation that managed to be oh-so-different from the countless existing ones (despite applying strict adherence to the score, of course) ...

    I sense rabbit hole, won't be going down it.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Except when it IS supposed to be played with a pick.

    Hi, G,
    I thought we were taking about CG not the mandolin?
    Play live . . . Marinero

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Except when it IS
    But of course...

    Same can thus be said about using a bow. Or even ... using (classical) finger picking

  14. #63

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    "Classical music isn't any more sacred than other styles of music. It better not be if it's not to become a fossile." RJVB

    Well, R,
    Its managed to survive the last 1500 years ,or so, and has not, of yet, become fossilized as indicated by Classical Music Programs/Degrees/Conservatories/Symphonies, etc. throughout the world.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  15. #64

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    Since you apparently don't realise what the term fossilised implies: what you describe comes across as something that's set in stone.

    And that's exactly what a fossile is.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, G,
    I thought we were taking about CG not the mandolin?
    Play live . . . Marinero
    You said ‘classical music’ in your statement which I quoted in my post.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    You said ‘classical music’ in your statement which I quoted in my post.
    CM=classical music
    CG=classical guitar
    C=classical

  18. #67

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    This thread is like the Protestants and Catholics arguing over who is actually a Christian.

  19. #68

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    Isn't it more like atheists or agnosts telling one of those groups (probably the calvinist ) that they're all christians?

  20. #69

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    MIkko you sound wonderful. Accomplished musicianship, stretching commonly held boundaries, and also the self strength to post.
    As the great concert organist Virgil Fox said:
    ”Those who can play, play. Those who can’t teach. But the critics are those who couldn’t get into the house of music any other way”.
    PICK CLASSICAL AND BE PROUD! I know my profs at the Peabody Conservatory would welcome you in open arms, unlike some “CG “ players here.
    BTW
    The full quote was on WQXR NYC radio in the early seventies. They had not shut the mike off when Virgil added, quite loudly, “and all the critics do is sit around smelling each other’s bungholes “.
    Dude knew critics!
    jk

  21. #70

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    l love this stuff, thanks for posting! It seems just a heartbeat away from John Fahey etc

  22. #71

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    And the intonation is very beautiful; adds to the folkloric colour

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    This thread is like the Protestants and Catholics arguing over who is actually a Christian.
    H

    Happens every time with classical.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    You said ‘classical music’ in your statement which I quoted in my post.
    So, G,
    One last time for everyone. You cannot play Classical Music without utilizing Classical Technique since you're incapable of playing a piece as was written/intended by the composer (with the exception of linear pieces). For example, a CG composition that contains four note chords which are intended to be played in unison ,as written in the music, cannot be played faithfully with a pick. If they are always played arpeggiated, the composition will not be played properly as the composer intended. This requires Classical technique using your right hand (p-i-m-a) to play the four notes in unison-- something, for which, a musician playing with a pick cannot logically/technically execute. Ergo, the performance will always be flawed although, perhaps, played well technically.
    Finally, there are some here who have studied CG and ,for them, this discussion should be most clear. And, it should also be noted that this has nothing to do with an artist's personal interpretation of the music where he alters some aspects of a composition to reflect his/her personal style but rather the ability of a musician to play a faithful reproduction of the music in a clearly defined genre. Here's Edson Lopes with Tarrega's beautiful arrangement of Chopin's Prelude (Opus 28 No.7) which has a combination of block and arpeggiated chords(for effect and not written in the music)--something impossible to be played correctly with a pick. Enjoy.



    For the record, I'm done with the dead horse. M

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    And the intonation is very beautiful; adds to the folkloric colour
    Hah, this guitars are prepared for just intonation, so it'd better be beautiful in the sense that singing just intervals gives a physical sense of well-being.

  26. #75

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    [peeks around all 4 corners]

    Guys, I think the coast is clear

    (washing chopin out of my eyes, erm, ears )


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