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  1. #181
    Are there any Weather Report fans in here? Because I wanted to start a debate on who's the better composer Joe Zawinul or Wayne Shorter?

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  2. #182
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    Hungary
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    Very old thread but I just found it now, let me in, and let me share my experiences about this. I have been visiting classical music school and learnt flute about 6 years long, saxophone for a half year, or so, classical piano, and jazz guitar in conservatory (3 years long), now I am learning in college (jazz guitar also). And I am teaching classical because where I live jazz is unfortunately not so common but classical is, so all we have to do is teach classical with no classical guitar background. And that is a pain in the ass... In my view in official school we all should leran classical for about 4-5 years long, and then change to jazz (whoever wants). It is a must to get that classical background in this instrument because of the sight reading. I am a pick player so right hand technique is not a problem in this case but the sight reading is...

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by mrblues View Post
    Very old thread but I just found it now, let me in, and let me share my experiences about this. I have been visiting classical music school and learnt flute about 6 years long, saxophone for a half year, or so, classical piano, and jazz guitar in conservatory (3 years long), now I am learning in college (jazz guitar also). And I am teaching classical because where I live jazz is unfortunately not so common but classical is, so all we have to do is teach classical with no classical guitar background. And that is a pain in the ass... In my view in official school we all should leran classical for about 4-5 years long, and then change to jazz (whoever wants). It is a must to get that classical background in this instrument because of the sight reading. I am a pick player so right hand technique is not a problem in this case but the sight reading is...
    If you're a pick player does the whole classical fingering technique give you trouble? And do you teach your kids to use nails?

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  4. #184
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Hungary
    Posts
    506
    At the beginner levels it doesnt give me trouble. But when I try to sight read a Bach piece, which consist of 3-4 voices, that gives me trouble, yes. I have a very good friend, who is classical guitarist, and he is showing me things, so I am trying my best but the jazz college is the first now. I teach the kids to use their fingertips instead of nails.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by mrblues View Post
    At the beginner levels it doesnt give me trouble. But when I try to sight read a Bach piece, which consist of 3-4 voices, that gives me trouble, yes. I have a very good friend, who is classical guitarist, and he is showing me things, so I am trying my best but the jazz college is the first now. I teach the kids to use their fingertips instead of nails.
    You know if they ever want to go to a major conservatory for classical guitar they will fail there audition if they don't use nails!

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  6. #186
    Hello, thought this might help you.

    ive played a lot of Bach on classical guitar, for whatever reason, it seems to favor beginning on the M plucking finger, alternating with I. Starting on I, ime, doesn’t work out as nicely.

    hope that helps

  7. #187
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,326
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    There are some great Julian Bream BBC masterclass clips (they may be on YouTube somewhere) where the student first plays the piece flawlessly with great technique, and I’m thinking, wow, wish I could play that piece as well as that. Then Bream takes over and shows how they have been paying insufficient attention to the musical possibilities in the piece, such as phrasing, dynamics, tone colour etc. He plays the first few bars with just a few subtle changes of this nature, and then the piece REALLY comes to life, to the extent that the student’s performance starts to sound mediocre by comparison.

    So a classical player needs interpretation skills too. And this can involve a lot of personal and creative choices to make when playing a piece.
    A few years ago, my teacher asked me to help Oscar Ghiglia, a longtime good friend of his, with an unrelated non musical matter, which I did. I eventually got to meet Oscar, and heard him give a master class to Northwestern University graduate students ( The woman who heads the guitar department at Northwestern school of music is a former student of Oscar’s, and always has him come and perform every year). I mean, these graduate students were serious players of course, but the advice Oscar imparted on their interpretive skills was HUGE. You could hear the differences almost immediately, even a schlump like me noticed.

    For those that do not know, Oscar was Segovia‘s most famous student, studying with the maestro for 10 years. I found him to be a very nice, down to earth guy with a very quick wit and an articulate, very cultured point of view.

    I was thinking about the relationship between Jazz and classical players. I remember this conversation I had with my old teacher; he recounted in an interview with Studs Terkel in 1968 that becoming a professional classical Player after already being a professional jazz musician helped keep him sane , Because the sad reality is, being a professional jazz musician meant playing your heart out in a a bar or a club in which most people are talking over you, don’t really give a shit, and are more concerned with getting drunk and barely noticing the music at all. The much more respected classical venues at least meant people were paying attention to the music. .

    He had this great story, he was playing electric guitar with the singer Peggy Lee in her band at a small jazz club in Chicago. Before anyone else would arrive, he would show up early and bring his classical guitar to keep his chops up-to-date and practice the classical repertoire in a room away from everybody else. One day when he was doing this, as he finished, he heard a noise and looked behind. It was Peggy Lee, and she had heard the entire practice repertoire and was in tears and demanded that he perform a solo classical set before hrr Jazz group played. He happily complied and did double duty .

    This double duty kind of created this attitude in which his fellow musicians saw all that green grass over there. Oscar for example, was always wowed by his Jazz playing, and conversely, every time Joe Pass would come into town, he would always demand that he played classical guitar for him. After he would finish, Joe would always say something like, “Man, what do you play is real art and when I play is bullshit “. Talk about being humble and self deprecating. Wow.

    By the way, Bream asked him to play jazz with him in a duet setting . It did not go well at all, he felt Bream was stuck in the 1930s and was downright brutal with the guitar . That is actually not a surprise conclusion for anyone who has watched Bream’s DVD documentary of his life, when he subbed for a jazz big band for a Fiver in London. The big bandleader thanked him for his service and said if he showed up tomorrow, he would give him a rhythm guitar lesson

    Thank God he had his day job !

    The other thing I want to say about the relationship between jazz and classical is another story my teacher said about long ongoing conversations he had with Jimmy Weible decades ago. Jimmy was developing his ideas about two line counterpoint on an improvised basis , and my teacher convinced him the in order to develop these ideas more fully, he needed to develop his right hand in a more systematic way by taking formal classical guitar lessons. Finally Jimmy agreed, and my teacher flew out to LA to help him get a very nice guitar with one of the famous Spanish guitar makers he knew. I believe the Jimmy actually studied classical with the Brazilian guy who played with the modern jazz quartet among others and lived in United States for many years . Not Baden Powell or Luis Bonfa, I can never remember his name.

    The point is, Jimmy studied classical guitar not to perform classical music, but to develop his technical skills in order to musically develop his jazz improv two line improv ideas better.

  8. #188
    I met Oscar Ghiglia in Wellington New Zealand back in the early '70's.
    I was doing a classical guitar major at University and was in my first year.
    Oscar was doing a tour of New Zealand and a fellow student and I went to a rehearsal session
    he was having with the NZ Symphony Orchestra.
    Of course, he was playing the Aranjuez Concerto....but my friend and I had not heard the work played live up to that time.

    So we got seats in the circle and clutching our scores we sat in rapt attention.....He made it all seem so easy.
    Come the end of the rehearsal we rushed down to the green room to meet the man.
    He was very patient with our questions about certain passages....[anyone who's attempted the work know the ones]

    He was putting his guitar away and suggested that he felt like a coffee and would be happy to continue the conversation
    if we could suggest a nice cafe.....Well, he must have spent about an hour of his time showing how he [and most pros]
    were dealing with some of the many thorny bits that are peppered through the work.
    The kicker for me was how in the 3rd movement he simply inverted the arpeggiated chord section so as to keep the same
    melody notes on to, so much easier...just common scale tone voicings. I was amazed....wow....you can do that! LOL

    What a generous soul ....an unforgettable experience to hang with one of the greats!

    Like your teacher I'd thrown in the gig scene ....rock/blues a little jazz snuck in here and there and playing to drunks or heads
    and coming home at all hours stinking of cigarette smoke.
    Hence my dedicated albeit late start in classical guitar study....at age 22.
    Still love it....but the improv thing keeps tugging at my sleeve.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    A few years ago, my teacher asked me to help Oscar Ghiglia, a longtime good friend of his, with an unrelated non musical matter, which I did. I eventually got to meet Oscar, and heard him give a master class to Northwestern University graduate students ( The woman who heads the guitar department at Northwestern school of music is a former student of Oscar’s, and always has him come and perform every year). I mean, these graduate students were serious players of course, but the advice Oscar imparted on their interpretive skills was HUGE. You could hear the differences almost immediately, even a schlump like me noticed.

    For those that do not know, Oscar was Segovia‘s most famous student, studying with the maestro for 10 years. I found him to be a very nice, down to earth guy with a very quick wit and an articulate, very cultured point of view.

    I was thinking about the relationship between Jazz and classical players. I remember this conversation I had with my old teacher; he recounted in an interview with Studs Terkel in 1968 that becoming a professional classical Player after already being a professional jazz musician helped keep him sane , Because the sad reality is, being a professional jazz musician meant playing your heart out in a a bar or a club in which most people are talking over you, don’t really give a shit, and are more concerned with getting drunk and barely noticing the music at all. The much more respected classical venues at least meant people were paying attention to the music. .

    He had this great story, he was playing electric guitar with the singer Peggy Lee in her band at a small jazz club in Chicago. Before anyone else would arrive, he would show up early and bring his classical guitar to keep his chops up-to-date and practice the classical repertoire in a room away from everybody else. One day when he was doing this, as he finished, he heard a noise and looked behind. It was Peggy Lee, and she had heard the entire practice repertoire and was in tears and demanded that he perform a solo classical set before hrr Jazz group played. He happily complied and did double duty .

    This double duty kind of created this attitude in which his fellow musicians saw all that green grass over there. Oscar for example, was always wowed by his Jazz playing, and conversely, every time Joe Pass would come into town, he would always demand that he played classical guitar for him. After he would finish, Joe would always say something like, “Man, what do you play is real art and when I play is bullshit “. Talk about being humble and self deprecating. Wow.

    By the way, Bream asked him to play jazz with him in a duet setting . It did not go well at all, he felt Bream was stuck in the 1930s and was downright brutal with the guitar . That is actually not a surprise conclusion for anyone who has watched Bream’s DVD documentary of his life, when he subbed for a jazz big band for a Fiver in London. The big bandleader thanked him for his service and said if he showed up tomorrow, he would give him a rhythm guitar lesson

    Thank God he had his day job !

    The other thing I want to say about the relationship between jazz and classical is another story my teacher said about long ongoing conversations he had with Jimmy Weible decades ago. Jimmy was developing his ideas about two line counterpoint on an improvised basis , and my teacher convinced him the in order to develop these ideas more fully, he needed to develop his right hand in a more systematic way by taking formal classical guitar lessons. Finally Jimmy agreed, and my teacher flew out to LA to help him get a very nice guitar with one of the famous Spanish guitar makers he knew. I believe the Jimmy actually studied classical with the Brazilian guy who played with the modern jazz quartet among others and lived in United States for many years . Not Baden Powell or Luis Bonfa, I can never remember his name.

    The point is, Jimmy studied classical guitar not to perform classical music, but to develop his technical skills in order to musically develop his jazz improv two line improv ideas better.
    What's your teachers name?

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

  10. #190
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    2,730
    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    I believe the Jimmy actually studied classical with the Brazilian guy who played with the modern jazz quartet among others and lived in United States for many years . Not Baden Powell or Luis Bonfa, I can never remember his name.
    Laurindo Almeida
    Current favorites: '16 Gibson L-5 WesMo, '75 Gibson L-5CN

  11. #191

    jazz in college

    I studied jazz guitar in college.

    It has served me well.

    I have never formally studied classical guitar, although I have played around with solo pieces and use classical technique for finger picking.

    My suggestion is to study both and get what you want/need out of each. Your own style will emerge. You may find you like one better than the other and decide to pursue that one, full time.

    Good luck to you.

  12. #192

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