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  1. #101

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    I do not see a big difference in the right hand between classical and flamenco when you play scales. Usually flemancas play with more grip and attack but the general movement is the same. Or not?

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  3. #102

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    its the angle of the hand/fingers that i was referring to.

    it can take classical players years and years to get their attack, tone, nails just right. flamenco technique does not cut it soundwise, for classial guitar music. sorry.

    i would not be so fast to underestimate this.

  4. #103

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    Modern flamenco right hand technique is equally as advanced as classical right hand technique (in many ways more so). The way the instrument is held in classsical restricts movement of the right arm excessively. Most modern classical guitar students will tell you they would love to be able to play like PDL.

    If you try and play flamenco with a classical technique, it sounds completely amateur. Listen to the tone quality and right hand control produced by this man: The approach to his sound may be different, but he's a genius IMO.

    Last edited by czardas; 05-07-2011 at 06:36 AM.
    We are the borg. Your harmonies will be assimilated. Your scale patterns and distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by czardas View Post
    Modern flamenco right hand technique is equally as advanced as classical right hand technique (in many ways more so). The way the instrument is held in classsical restricts movement of the right arm excessively. Most modern classical guitar students will tell you they would love to be able to play like PDL.

    If you try and play flamenco with a classical technique, it sounds completely amateur. Listen to the tone quality and right hand control produced by this man: The approach to his sound may be different, but he's a genius IMO.

    then you agree, they are different. that was the point.

    also, thanks for the post, that sounded nice. but it is not traditional flamenco music, is it? much more contemporary i would say. regardless, his tone is a far cry from that of the world's top classical players.

    ciao.
    Last edited by fumblefingers; 05-07-2011 at 05:11 PM.

  6. #105
    just to play devil's advocate, what is sight reading going to gain you in today's world in terms of making a living? Gone is the day of Tommy Tedesco where you could automatically make a mint recording jingles and movie scores 8 hours a day in a studio in LA. Sight reading is a great skill to have but it doesn't necessarily make it easier to make a living.

    Quote Originally Posted by KShri View Post
    I'll tell it to you straight.

    Unless you're Lang Lang, or the next Lang Lang. You will never make a real living performing classical music.

    So, what do you do? I'll tell you.

    If you want to become a real musician, then you need to diversify right now.


    Continue your classical studies. You need as much of an advantage that you can get in this business. Learn as much as you can about music theory and apply it to every style of music that you listen to.

    Develop your sight reading abilities. Read through charts like a motherfucker. Develop your chops big time.

    Diversify is the new standard. You can no longer specialize (unless you are one the next Lang Lang)!!!!!!!! You need to be a chameleon. That goes for composers and performers. One style is not going to cut it. You need to have very good chops in rock, classical and jazz.

  7. #106

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    a great question for a new thread but i'll keep it here.

    i wonder what Reg has to say about this question/statement?
    Fred Hamilton at UNT stresses reading capability. he claims that it directly affects his ability to get gigs and survive those gigs (not his exact words mind you). Jake Hanlon probably heard this a few times.

    the romantic (from the outisde) LA studio days of the 70s are indeed gone from what i hear. they were starting to say that in 1980 at Dick Grove's.

    what say you Reg and other gigging pros? is reading capability a must have to get called/called back?

  8. #107
    now wait...I'm not saying reading skills are not a must. Certainly to do reading gigs you need to be able to read. I'm just saying that mastering sight reading does not necessarily get you gigs. You still need to be a great player.

  9. #108

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    aah. no doubt about that. that would be the first order of business.

  10. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    aah. no doubt about that. that would be the first order of business.
    30 years ago, that wasn't necessarily the case. I knew plenty of musicians in DC who could read but weren't necessarily great players. However, they could play mandolin, banjo, classical guitar and electric guitar - Just enough to get a ton of pit-band gigs for broadway shows.

    It used to be that you could tell a student, "Learn to read fly-!@#$ and learn all your doubles and you'll always be able to make a living". That's no longer true.

  11. #110

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    Paco de Lucia has a ravishing sound, as beautiful as any classical player. His version of the Concierto de Aranjuez lacks nothing tonally, and in many respects, certainly rhythmically, is far more faithful to the score and the intent of the music than most classical players. He also is a fine improvisor and holds his own with McLaughlin, Dimeola and Corea.
    Last edited by ronjazz; 05-18-2011 at 09:49 AM.

  12. #111

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    Making a living as a player is currently as much about marketing as it is about playing. While there is not as much studio work as there used to be, and even not as much concert work as there used to be, there is an ever-growing Senior Citizen market that serves very well for those of us who don't have any interest in teaching 10-year-olds the latest power chord anthem, as well as the new and growing House Concert market, and the Library Concert market. Granted, the more styles one can effectively play with conviction and style, the more chances to break into these markets.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    i can see that you are very detail oriented. for example, word choice is something that you zero in on. great, me too.

    with regards to improvising with classical guitar technique - i said "believe" because there is no demonstrable case of an improviser who can blow 5 minute hot solos over Giant Steps for example, with the tone of Julian Bream or David Russell etc, etc. no such person walks the earth. you know it, i know it.

    awkward or tricky or difficult could all be used to describe difficult right hand moves. if there were no such thing then everyone/anyone could play Albeniz like Williams, or Brouwer like Cobo, or Turina and Torroba like Bream etc, etc, etc. But they can't. Neither can you.

    don't get your knickers in a knot. it's not about you.
    Gene Bertoncini

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    Paco de Lucia has a ravishing sound, as beautiful as any classical player. His version of the Concierto de Aranjuez lacks nothing tonally, and in amny respects, certainly rhythmically, is far more faithful to the score and the intent of the music than most classical players. He also is a fine improvisor and holds his own with McLaughlin, Dimeola and Corea.
    i disagree 180 degrees. you realize that its not about the player, its about the tecnique right?

    anyway, i've heard him play it. its so far from the sound of a great classical player, its not even funny. you would really want to invite comparison of that to performances by Williams, Bream, Parkening, Romero, Russell? something tells me that you dont listen to nearly enough classical.

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    Gene Bertoncini
    what about him? he's a nice jazz player. he gigs at chain restaurants sometimes.

    again, you are comparing this playing to that of say... Julian Bream?

    you should really think about giving this up, and go expand your listening experience for awhile.

  16. #115

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    Well, the question is, do you listen to anyone but yourself?

    I studied with Alexandre Lagoya, Oscar Ghiglia and John Williams, as well as Mario Escudero and Paco Pena. I have played in masterclasses with Parkening, Russell, etc. I have been a pro guitarist for 45 years, I have taught classical guitar at New England Conservatory, and I've been on staff at Wesleyan University as flamenco dance accompanist. I can say this: you don't have a clue. You have lots of opinions, but you really don't have very good ears at all. You have a weird bias that closes you off from anything but your very narrow viewpoint. I'll note here that I haven't disparaged Bream's sound, or Williams's sound (both of whom I've "jammed" with one-on-one), merely pointed out that De Lucia's tonal mastery in the Aranjuez is clear to anyone with an open mind. I guess I wasn't addressing you. You should try listening to anyone but yourself some day. Also, your rather stupid, uninformed comment on Gene Bertoncini is indicative of how little you really know about the guitar world beyond your nose.

    By the way, whether you like it or not, it's not about you, either.
    Last edited by ronjazz; 05-18-2011 at 09:49 AM.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    Well, the question is, do you listen to anyone but yourself?

    I studied with Alexandre Lagoya, Oscar Ghiglia and John Williams, as well as Mario Escudero and Paco Pena. I have played in masterclasses with Parkening, Russell, etc. I have been a pro guitarist for 45 years, I have taught classical guitar at New England Conservatory, and I've been on staff at Wesleyan University as flamenco dance accompanist. I can say this: you don't have a clue. You have lots of opinions, but you really don't have very good ears at all. You have a weird bias that closes you off from anything but your very narrow viewpoint. I'll note here that I haven't disparaged Bream's sound, or Williams's sound (both of whom I've "jammed" with one-on-one), merely pointed out that De Lucia's tonal mastery in the Aranjuez is clear to anyone with an open mind. I guess I wasn't addressing you. You should try listening to anyone but yourself some day. Also, your rather stupid, uninformed comment on Gene Bertoncini is indicative of how little you really know about the guitar world beyond your nose.

    By the way, whether you like it or not, it's not about you, either.
    well then you certainly have expertise over mine. however, its just your opinion vs. mine that the master flamenco player in question has a tone that is on par with the greatest classical players. you have your ear taste, i have mine.

    and you're right. my point of view on this is indeed narrow. we are talking about human beings after all. people tend to be best at what they do, not at what they don't do. i have never seen evidence that a flamenco player can play classical as well as the world's best classical players, never seen evidence that the world's best classical players can play flamenco as well as the world's best flamenco players (although Pepe is more refined, its more about style), never seen evidence that the world's best rockers can play jazz on par with the world's best jazzers and vice versa. same with pitchers and quarterbacks etc. you get the idea.

    i never said they couldn't function, or even do fairly well. my focus on this point is the very top of the art, that's all. so if you want to listen to Paco play Rodrigo knock yourself out. its a free country.

    and while i partially agree with you regarding the Paco to Johnny Mac and DiMeola comparison, I would not compare his improv skills to those of Corea. that's a tough call for any guitarist. just my opinion.
    Last edited by fumblefingers; 05-18-2011 at 08:05 PM.

  18. #117

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    If your focus was truly on the very top of the art, you'd recognize the contradictions in your reasoning. As it is, your focus is on being right, at all costs, including the destruction of your own credibility. As it's useless to reason with you, I will give up, and leave you to your narrow-mindedness, pre-conceived notions and convenient little pigeonholes.

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    If your focus was truly on the very top of the art, you'd recognize the contradictions in your reasoning. As it is, your focus is on being right, at all costs, including the destruction of your own credibility. As it's useless to reason with you, I will give up, and leave you to your narrow-mindedness, pre-conceived notions and convenient little pigeonholes.
    i don't think its useless. i think that i'm a reasonable man. i'm probably too damned particular, tough minded, and intolerant of mediocrity for your preferences. i can live with that. and i totally respect your giving up.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    Paco de Lucia has a ravishing sound, as beautiful as any classical player. His version of the Concierto de Aranjuez lacks nothing tonally, and in many respects, certainly rhythmically, is far more faithful to the score and the intent of the music than most classical players. He also is a fine improvisor and holds his own with McLaughlin, Dimeola and Corea.
    Way to go ronjazz. It's good to see someone agrees with me about this. I kinda gave up this argument before it began. My distinction was about technical mastery of the sound, not personal taste. fumblefingers assertion that Sanlucar's sound is a far cry from a classical guitarists tone is still perplexing to me. If we are to point fingers, then I would have to say that rhythm is pretty poorly developed among classical guitarists.

    I know Paco Pena very well. He's a great guy who has had a tremendous influence on me over the years.
    Last edited by czardas; 05-20-2011 at 04:02 AM.
    We are the borg. Your harmonies will be assimilated. Your scale patterns and distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

  21. #120
    It seems that after many posts, disagreements become entrenched in the defense of a particular point of view and have led to angry interactions.

    I certainly have my biases. I have taught guitar at a Major University for over 35 years. I have studied with Pepe Romero (this is where I first learned of the classical/flamenco connection). I have taken master classes with Barreuco, Fisk and even attended (but not participated) in 2 Segovia Master classes in the late 70's. I compose music for solo guitar (I am the only one who plays these pieces but I am OK with that) as well as composing pieces for improvising ensembles- some of which have Jazz and Flamenco elements.

    I have studied with Ralph Towner. In my opinion (I will not say humble opinion as that editorial should be one ascribed to me -or not- by others), Ralph is a rare and unique example of what is best in combining Jazz and Classical. Yet I never see him given his due in this thread.

    Why is that? Am I that out of touch with what this thread (Classical vs. Jazz) is supposed to be about?

    Just asking...

    Best to All!

  22. #121

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    Ralph Towner is excellent. He is highly regarded and has the respect of LOTS of players. ( I think Larry Coryell calls him the best around)

    I don't know why he isn't mentioned more but that seems to be the case for a lot of excellent players. (Especially those players that play their own compositions as opposed to standards.)

    I've noticed this over the years. People tend to go with what they know. Look at Mike Stern. I think his CD "Standards' got way more recognition than CD's of his own compositions. I recall it won jazz guitar album of the year at GP magazine.

    Some other names I don't see mentioned enough here are Earl Klugh and Charlie Byrd. Granted that fingerstye jazz has evolved so much but Charlie was the 'crossover' guy way back when and then came Earl.

  23. #122

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    the thread has morphed, thanks to a lot of semi-trolls like me. or are we just unfocused?

    anyway, for my part i am going to listen to the concerto de aranjuez performance by de lucia and then williams and bream again for a comparo.

    if the capricho arabe performd by bream and de lucia are representative (both on youtube) it wont be much of a comparison. again, sorry about that. i think one guy is just playing a little out of his home base. doesnt mean he aint great at his main thing.

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    if the capricho arabe performd by bream and de lucia are representative (both on youtube) it wont be much of a comparison.
    I couldn't find any examples of Paco de Lucia playing Capricho Arabe on YouTube.

    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    He (Paco de Lucia) also is a fine improvisor and holds his own with McLaughlin, Dimeola and Corea.
    Chick Corea doesn't fit this equation, because he isn't known for his guitar playing skills. Try putting the rest of the names in a different order. Error 404
    We are the borg. Your harmonies will be assimilated. Your scale patterns and distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz View Post
    If this is Paco de Lucia, then I'm a bug-eyed monster from 4 Ursae Majoris B.
    Last edited by czardas; 05-21-2011 at 07:08 AM.
    We are the borg. Your harmonies will be assimilated. Your scale patterns and distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

  26. #125

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    Towner is wonderful. Great sound and concept, albeit in the "ECM" jazz mode, rather than the tired old swing style.

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by czardas View Post
    If this is Paco de Lucia, then I'm a bug-eyed monster from 4 Ursae Majoris B.

    good point. that sounds like caca.

  28. #127

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    Despite saying so , it isn't. Look at the comments.

    TO clear it up, check out Paco's forum and ask there if it's him.

  29. #128

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    Regarding classical players, I'm a big Julian Bream fan. If you haven't watched the BBC TV series Guitarra, then I recommend you try to find it. It's informative and well worth watching.

    I'm not so keen on some of these thread titles though. There seem to be quite a few threads using the abbreviation 'vs'. This verses that etc...
    Last edited by czardas; 05-21-2011 at 04:16 PM.
    We are the borg. Your harmonies will be assimilated. Your scale patterns and distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

  30. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    Paco de Lucia has a ravishing sound, as beautiful as any classical player. His version of the Concierto de Aranjuez lacks nothing tonally, and in many respects, certainly rhythmically, is far more faithful to the score and the intent of the music than most classical players. He also is a fine improvisor and holds his own with McLaughlin, Dimeola and Corea.
    ok. i've listened to Paco back to back with Bream.

    Paco's rhythmic treatment was indeed refreshingly different and he played certain passages with his trademark speed. those characteristics were noteworthy relative to most classical performances. i'm sure that he angled his right hand more than usual to get the classical tone as well.

    the Bream recording was older and not as well balanced. (the orchestra blasted piercingly out of my reference speakers so i didn't dare turn it up any more). despite those limitations Bream's tone, and variation of tone were clearly superior. his articulation was clearer and his dynamic expressiveness was sophisticated, thoughtful, and intricate. (a spruce top guitar can help with that but...). his use of vibrato certainly stuck out relative to the flamenco master's.

    yes Paco's version was nice, but in truth there really isn't much comparison.

    love to hear him do his own stuff and jam with Johnny Mac though.
    Last edited by fumblefingers; 05-22-2011 at 02:33 PM.

  31. #130

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    You're right, there isn't much comparison. Bream plays this very Spanish piece as an Englishman, and Paco as a Spaniard.

  32. #131

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    there's some truth to that. but its classical, and evocative of flamenco - not flamenco. i suppose i could next compare it to Pepe's version but there's no point. Paco is simply not a classsical guitarist.

    flamenco is a rustic folk music. but you know all that. you Paco fans are stubbornly loyal. thats good.

  33. #132

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    Well, of all the stupid comments you've posted, and there are many, that one takes the cake. A "rustic folk music". My, my. You'd best not talk to Williams about that, he'll laugh you out of the room.

    Paco is a classical guitarist, has been since the De Falla album of 1978. Your narrow little mind is also rather empty, I see. Paco played and recorded the Aranjuez to show the stuffy, tunnel-visioned classical guitar world, represented by posers like you, what Rodrigo really meant it to sound like. Of course, he succeeded to the point that some poor little amateur on an internet forum can pretend to be knowledgable. Looks like he's the winner, and you're the loser.

  34. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    Well, of all the stupid comments you've posted, and there are many, that one takes the cake. A "rustic folk music". My, my. You'd best not talk to Williams about that, he'll laugh you out of the room.

    Paco is a classical guitarist, has been since the De Falla album of 1978. Your narrow little mind is also rather empty, I see. Paco played and recorded the Aranjuez to show the stuffy, tunnel-visioned classical guitar world, represented by posers like you, what Rodrigo really meant it to sound like. Of course, he succeeded to the point that some poor little amateur on an internet forum can pretend to be knowledgable. Looks like he's the winner, and you're the loser.
    then what the heck is it? do you care to step up and define it? why not demonstrate some of your impressive scholarship?

    i'm also gonna have to challenge you to provide evidence that Paco played it for the reason that you state. that claim sounds a bit like the ranting of a defensive, emotional fanboy.

    also, by your standard Williams is an Aussie and Brit, and any such non-Spaniard can't speak with credibility regarding the transcendant Flamenco.

    i understand that your feelings are hurt, but you're starting to act a bit like a defensive child, as opposed to the scholar and accomplished artist that you claim to be.

  35. #134

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    Ah, the classic projection from someone getting his ass kicked.

    Look, stick to your stupid little pigeonholes, I'm sure it makes your very complicated life easier to deal with. It's music. If you need to play some silly game about "rustic folk music", go ahead, it just proves how truly ignorant you are of what it takes to reach the level of accomplishment of a Bream, Williams, De Lucia or Mclaughlin. I understand that you are defensive in your lack of musical education and understanding, but acting like a petulant child and lying about what I claim to be will just put you deeper into the hole you have so very quickly dug. If you don't know what flamenco is, there's no shame in that. Google is your friend.

  36. #135

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    yep. gypsy music. doesn't get more rustic and folksy than that does it?

    so what do you call a bunch of guys sitting around in a bar drinking and smoking like chimneys, and pounding on the table while somebody strums on a guitar? high art? no. besides, who said that there's anything wrong with rustic folk art/music anyway? not me.

    the simple truth is that you can't abide anything other than high praise for your chosen art, and the people who play it. it makes you angry and defensive as hell. it just hits too close to home. no offense intended. i disagreed on a point of view regarding art. i was probably too blunt.

    its also true that you have contributed nothing in the way of instrinsically valuable, scholarly counterpoints here. only insults any angry outbursts.

    out.

  37. #136
    my favorite musicians that combine jazz and nylon string techniques are probably Bola Sete (the live at newport is awesome) and Baden Powell. Villa Lobos was supposed to be an amazing improviser, too. Also Al Di Meola put out that album where he played Piazolla with a percussion player on nylon strings, though I think he used a pick. So did Sharon Isbin, though I don't know if she improvised on it. But who cares? It sounds great. And Nino Josele made that album about Bill Evans and Tomatito did that Spain album.







    Baden Powell's Berimbau is awesome too.



    If I remember Paco talking, he said that he learned how to improvise 'jazz' stuff from Al and John pretty much when they started playing. I don't know if that's true though. A lot of that stuff flamencos play, in my understanding is stuff they composed beforehand.

    I've tried to improvise over bulerias and to reharmonize them with jazz chords like some of those piano players but let's just say it's a work in progress.

    Anyways I like learning everything cause you never know when that albanico on timbales might come in handy at your next solo guitar gig. I guess that means trying to learn both classical and jazz and flamenco, though I don't many people can play like John Williams, Paco and Wes haha

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluegreenguitar View Post
    Anyways I like learning everything cause you never know when that albanico on timbales might come in handy at your next solo guitar gig. I guess that means trying to learn both classical and jazz and flamenco, though I don't many people can play like John Williams, Paco and Wes haha
    At least not in the same lifetime!

  39. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW400 View Post
    Ralph Towner is excellent. He is highly regarded and has the respect of LOTS of players. ( I think Larry Coryell calls him the best around)
    +1 on that... Ralph Towner is a terrific player and composer! I've admired him for years. I think there's some truth to what you say about playing original vs. standard compositions. There is so much variety in his output that he can't be pigeonholed, which some people prefer, I guess. Bridging jazz, classical, "world" and some uncategorizable elements mixed in different proportions, with real creativity.

    Anyone looking for a more purely "jazzy" piece of his could start with The Prowler.

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    flamenco is a rustic folk music. but you know all that. you Paco fans are stubbornly loyal. thats good.
    And jazz is so sophisticated by comparison. Funny thing is that I see it as being the other way round.

    You ask a question "What is flamenco?". Scholars have been trying to figure that one out for the best part of 100 years. Your definition, 'rustic folk music', shows complete ignorance of something which on the highest level is an extremely difficult and technically complicated art form. Some of this thread is tediously boring, like an endless stream of meaningless impro going nowhere. Really clever!
    We are the borg. Your harmonies will be assimilated. Your scale patterns and distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    flamenco is a rustic folk music. but you know all that .
    Beware of things everyone knows, they're often wrong. Flamenco as 'a rustic folk music' is mostly a myth, especially the 'rustic' part. Flamenco is as rustic as the blues or, come to that, jazz, which is to say, not very. You've been sold the Hollywood, gypsies-around-the-campfire picture.

  42. #141

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    czardas - if you will read a little more carefully you will see that i was comparing Flamenco to Classical, not Jazz. i agree with you that blues - especially original delta blues - was rustic as hell. more like... primitive and crude. New Orleans Jazz was very basic too.

    you'll also see that i was not criticizing folk music, merely calling it what it is. i am fully cognizant that Classical haters can't live with that. (i have always listened to and played other styles more than Classical anyway. it’s just that i grew up with classical along side pop and rock, and received my education in it. i guess i would simply say that i haven’t ignored it or written it off, like most baby boomers, gen-xrs, and gen-yrs.)

    JR - i was not referring to the current Flamenco scene, i don’t even know if there is such a thing but i'll bet there is. i would not be surprised that contemporary times, technology and artistic evolution have changed it though. it was founded by poor Andalusian Gypsies though. its their music. no one has disputed that so far. 'nuff said.

  43. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    it was founded by poor Andalusian Gypsies
    What's that got to do with rustic?

  44. #143

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    There is just no comparison. Flamenco simply rocks! Despite it's rustic reputation, it's just so awesome!

    We are the borg. Your harmonies will be assimilated. Your scale patterns and distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

  45. #144

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    I don' get your points fumblefinger.

    Many classical music has its origin in folk music as well and won't get past it very much. Of course you cannot compare Flamenco to Mozart but why should I?
    It is dance, guitar and song music and the guitar part has as much richness as for examply lute music from the Renaissance. Modern flamencas imrpovise while playing and compose their own pieces. Andres Batista was professor for classical AND flamenco guitar in Madrid, he played both and composed in both styles.

    If it comes to classical guitar, you cannot ignore flamenco. And even if an orchestra play Manuel de Falla or Albeniz, they simply play Flamenco the classical way.

  46. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRoss View Post
    What's that got to do with rustic?
    a lot of them lived outside the borders of towns, and in the country. occupatons ranged from blacksmithing to begging? see rustic.


    For the cultured classes of Spain, until recently flamenco was nothing more than a “thing of the lower classes”; of taverns, violence, riotousness, drunkenness, and in the past, of beggars, thieves, bandits and gypsies. It was not until 1922 that a group of intellectuals (which included the composer Manuel de Falla and the young poet Federico García Lorca) organised a “concurso the cante jondo”. The first time that the intellectuals of Andalucia acted as a group to study, understand and for want of a better word, protect flamenco. At that time famenco had almost completely been forgotten, substituted by a light operatic form known as “opera flamenco”.In the XVIII and XIX centuries Andalucia had virtually been abandoned to the four winds. Massive areas of land was owned by a few families who generally lived far from their estates in Andalucia. Some of these estates had been owned by the same families since the wars against the Moors, as a payment for services rendered to the Crown.

    On these estates, during the XVIII and XIX centuries, absolute poverty was the norm whilst at the same time vast tracts of land was left uncultivated. This land was desperately needed by the andalucian population which was rapidly growing and suffering an increasing number of years in which famine was a reality. However, this uncultivated land was either abandoned, or used as hunting ranges. In whatever case, the andalucian population was unable to make use of such terrain – it was nearly always under armed guard.

    These abandoned people nurtured what is known today as flamenco – an oral history of their lives and concerns; from the prisons, forges, mines, charity hospitals, and the gypsy “barrios”; from a people terrorised by poverty, superstitions and ignorance comes flamenco. In Andalucia, with such “poor” ingredients flamenco was born. Félix Grande and Fernando Quiñones have defined flamenco as “a tragedy in the first person” and “a protest without hope or destination”.

    Today, in an age of high-tech leisure and massive unemployment, flamenco has been undergoing a revolution. In precisely the same areas where it was originally nurtured – Jerez de la Frontera, Sanlúcar Cádiz to name just a few – the old ingredients are being mixed with new. The new wave of “flamencos jovenes” have not only changed the scheme of the “cante” and guitar, but are being accepted by the institutions of flamenco, such as the “Biennial de Sevilla”.


    so in other words, thank God for a classical composer (Manuel de Falla) and modern technology and times, Flamenco has gone through a metamorphosis? or perhaps renaissance? and that (partially) enables the arguments here.
    Last edited by fumblefingers; 05-29-2011 at 12:39 PM.

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by czardas View Post
    There is just no comparison. Flamenco simply rocks! Despite it's rustic reputation, it's just so awesome!

    thanks for the post. very nice playing there.

    you point out that it "rocks". yeah man. far be it for me to disagree. and of course like rock and jazz the variation is found largely in the soloist's work, as opposed to the compositional form. form wise it’s mostly the same thing repeated over and over and over.

  48. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pullush View Post
    I don' get your points fumblefinger.

    Many classical music has its origin in folk music as well and won't get past it very much. Of course you cannot compare Flamenco to Mozart but why should I?
    It is dance, guitar and song music and the guitar part has as much richness as for examply lute music from the Renaissance. Modern flamencas imrpovise while playing and compose their own pieces. Andres Batista was professor for classical AND flamenco guitar in Madrid, he played both and composed in both styles.

    If it comes to classical guitar, you cannot ignore flamenco. And even if an orchestra play Manuel de Falla or Albeniz, they simply play Flamenco the classical way.
    i understand. i think that's because you're bringing up different points.
    my original point was about technique as opposed to musical style. and who's "ignoring" Flamenco? nobody on this forum. i'll bet you a beer that there's more Flamenco discussion/coverage on this jazz forum than any other in existence.

    are you prescribing that i love it?

  49. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    ...form wise it’s mostly the same thing repeated over and over and over.
    Form wise it’s bulerias, which adheres to a specific set of rhythmic rules.
    We are the borg. Your harmonies will be assimilated. Your scale patterns and distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.

  50. #149

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    This is still on the flamenco theme, if anyone isn't interested don't read.

    @fumblefingers

    I disagree with your definition of flamenco as a "rustic folk music" because:
    - 'Rustic' means 'Having a simplicity and charm that is considered typical of the countryside,' i.e. rural + charming. Andalusia is not rural and for the 18th/19th/20th century poor it wasn't charming, either. I say it is not rural because, although it has an awful lot of countryside, few people live there - it is one of the region's characteristics that it has practically no villages, it has some towns and a lot of cities but almost no rural populations. Life in Andalusia is and was urban. And the temples of flamenco, Seville, Jerez, etc. are not just cities, they're big ones.
    - In many ways, flamenco isn't really a folk music, though it has some folk characteristics, the lack of notation, the mouth-to-mouth transmission, etc. But flamenco developed as music for performance, for the stage, rather than as music that gypsies played for each other. It is as much art music as folk music, or more, and always was.

    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers View Post
    a lot of them lived outside the borders of towns, and in the country.
    I don't know where you've got that from, but it isn't in the blog post you quote.

    occupatons ranged from blacksmithing to begging? see rustic.
    There's nothing rural or charming about either blacksmithing or begging. On the contrary, blacksmithing is a kind of industrial activity, and it would be a pretty dim beggar who did his day's work in the middle of the empty countryside.

    For the cultured classes of Spain, until recently flamenco was nothing more than a “thing of the lower classes”; of taverns, violence, riotousness, drunkenness, and in the past, of beggars, thieves, bandits and gypsies.
    This is an overstatement. The consumers of flamenco, those who pay to hear it, have always been the relatively well-off. Yes, it had connotations of the sinful and forbidden, which was precisely one of its attractions for the repressed Spanish Catholic middle classes.
    It was not until 1922 that a group of intellectuals (which included the composer Manuel de Falla and the young poet Federico García Lorca) organised a “concurso the cante jondo”. The first time that the intellectuals of Andalucia acted as a group to study, understand and for want of a better word, protect flamenco.
    Yes, but... The concurso was not organized because "famenco had almost completely been forgotten," but because it had become too popular. It had spread outside Andalusia and become fashionable in Madrid and Barcelona, and people like Falla and Lorca felt it was becoming commercial, debased - any old rubbish was being presented as flamenco. They were, frankly, intellectual snobs, though what they did was very important.

    the andalucian population was unable to make use of such terrain – it was nearly always under armed guard.
    Therefore, they had to live in the cities.

    These abandoned people nurtured what is known today as flamenco – an oral history of their lives and concerns; from the prisons, forges, mines, charity hospitals, and the gypsy “barrios”; from a people terrorised by poverty, superstitions and ignorance comes flamenco.
    'Barrio' means a district or quarter of a city. You don't have barrios in villages.
    Flamenco has gone through a metamorphosis? or perhaps renaissance? and that (partially) enables the arguments here.
    Now you're really mixing things up. Falla et al and their successors did a fine job of conservation, preserving the traditional before it was lost. The metamorphoses it underwent later, especially in the second half of the twentieth century, were due to record producers or artists themselves trying to make flamenco accessible to a broader public, almost the contrary of the intentions of the Concurso de cante jondo.
    Last edited by JohnRoss; 05-30-2011 at 08:06 AM.

  51. #150

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    Here's my take on it: 123flamenco.com History
    We are the borg. Your harmonies will be assimilated. Your scale patterns and distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.