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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    \

    Sorry, that is just silly. I have never see anyone play or teach that. The decay on the guitar is so short anyway its unnecessary. If Bach wrote the piece on Lautenwerck, as many think, there would be no way to stop the notes.

    You claiming this is incorrect because the chord tones are ringing over?
    It is definitely silly! I could say worse. But I can only guess at Marinero's reaction to your post, BWV, as he has been on my ignore list for a few years. And I won't be reading his response to this either. Do your worst, Marinero!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Then I must say, BWV, you are completely clueless about this piece and Bach as his music relates to the Classical Guitar. You could have never studied this piece with an accomplished CG teacher/professional. . . if you have studied it formally, at all. Enough said.
    Play live . . . Marinero
    LOL, so who did you study with that taught you such nonsense?

    dont hear any stopped notes here, which is likely how Bach heard/played the piece


  4. #28
    Hi, B,

    This is way beyond the intention and scope of this post but I will provide a few examples/questions directly from the ms. and ,this, is as far as I will take a discussion which IS common knowledge to formally trained CG's despite Professor Rob's emotional and delusional blabbering which, sadly, I believe is a direct result of ingesting bog spores while spending too much time wandering the Scottish Moors looking for buried Viking hoards. Simply:

    1. 1st measure: Do the 1/16th note groupings get their real value of 1/16(as written) or do they continue to ring beyond their time values? Do you follow the written music or create your own? This requires lifting after each 1/16th note--not playing it like a
    Jazz chord progression holding the chord until your shift. Each note is played separately. This occurs throughout the piece in every measure as written.
    2. 9th measure: The opening quarter note--Bb/bar chord, as all others, holds its value 1 beat--not 3. It must be lifted after the first beat and the final 1/16th note "a" must be muted and not allowed to carry on to the next measure.
    3. ms. 13: lift "b" to silence in 3rd grouping before "c" to execute final "b." Same as above in ms. 9 etc, etc.
    So, B, this is really the pedagogical gist of this piece and is one of the reasons it is used as a valuable teaching tool since it teaches the student 1.) to respect time values by developing a RH muting technique for notes that should respect the composer's intention of time as well as 2.) developing fluency in arpeggios. If you study the piece, it very clear to see. I hope this is clear since I'm not willing to discuss half-baked notions by confused musicians/academics that have nothing to do with the music as written.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, B,

    This is way beyond the intention and scope of this post but I will provide a few examples/questions directly from the ms. and ,this, is as far as I will take a discussion which IS common knowledge to formally trained CG's despite Professor Rob's emotional and delusional blabbering which, sadly, I believe is a direct result of ingesting bog spores while spending too much time wandering the Scottish Moors looking for buried Viking hoards. Simply:

    1. 1st measure: Do the 1/16th note groupings get their real value of 1/16(as written) or do they continue to ring beyond their time values? Do you follow the written music or create your own? This requires lifting after each 1/16th note--not playing it like a
    Jazz chord progression holding the chord until your shift. Each note is played separately. This occurs throughout the piece in every measure as written.
    2. 9th measure: The opening quarter note--Bb/bar chord, as all others, holds its value 1 beat--not 3. It must be lifted after the first beat and the final 1/16th note "a" must be muted and not allowed to carry on to the next measure.
    3. ms. 13: lift "b" to silence in 3rd grouping before "c" to execute final "b." Same as above in ms. 9 etc, etc.
    So, B, this is really the pedagogical gist of this piece and is one of the reasons it is used as a valuable teaching tool since it teaches the student 1.) to respect time values by developing a RH muting technique for notes that should respect the composer's intention of time as well as 2.) developing fluency in arpeggios. If you study the piece, it very clear to see. I hope this is clear since I'm not willing to discuss half-baked notions by confused musicians/academics that have nothing to do with the music as written.
    Play live . . . Marinero
    so show me an example of a CG actually doing this

    also noticed you did not answer my question on who you studied with that taught you such a stupidity pedantic notion

  6. #30

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    Apparently Eduardo Fernandez (see post no. 1) didn’t get the memo?

  7. #31

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    Segovia too was ignorant

  8. #32

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    Also Bream.


  9. #33

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    I think you’ll find every single recording ever made allows the 16th notes to ring on. Marinero yet again is making a fool of himself. But I don’t mind, we all need a laugh every now and then. One thing’s for sure, he’ll not make a recording for us all demonstrating his interpretation. Pity, as I’d love to hear it.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Also Bream.
    I'm just surprised Marinero didn't drop his monocle when that philistine disgraced his dinner party...

    Eduardo Fernandez--Scholar/Artist-screen-shot-2021-09-20-10-55-10-am-png

  11. #35

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    Bream was a Good South London Lad and therefore correct in this and all matters.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    I'm just surprised Marinero didn't drop his monocle when that philistine disgraced his dinner party...

    Eduardo Fernandez--Scholar/Artist-screen-shot-2021-09-20-10-55-10-am-png
    By the way, do you know how many times I clicked on that, trying to get it to play?

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    I'm just surprised Marinero didn't drop his monocle when that philistine disgraced his dinner party...

    Eduardo Fernandez--Scholar/Artist-screen-shot-2021-09-20-10-55-10-am-png

    The British comic actor Terry-Thomas would have been perfect to play his part.

    Eduardo Fernandez--Scholar/Artist-4b30424b-7612-4058-a4c8-b351088baf92-jpeg

  14. #38

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    If you want to hear it with all the notes played to their exact written durations, you'll have to listen to pianists (because they can). The most extreme exponent is probably Glenn Gould:


  15. #39

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    Yes, I was going to mention Gould. I love his playing sometimes, but..

  16. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Also Bream.

    O.K.,G,
    How could you, and others, see/hear what you claim in the video? A micron telescope? Yours and others responses ,of this nature, are completely absurd and show your lack of knowledge concerning proper mechanical execution of this piece. Perhaps, because you learned it at 14 . . . which would make sense for you but what's Rob's excuse? . . . it must be those spores in the Moors, again. Sad. Very sad.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. Oh, and did I tell you the sun is the center of our solar system . . . not the earth????? But, pleaseeeeeee don't invoke the spirit of Pope Paul V and Cardinal Bellamine to punish me for my blasphemy. Did I say, sad? Very sad. M

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    O.K.,G,
    How could you, and others, see/hear what you claim in the video? A micron telescope? Yours and others responses ,of this nature, are completely absurd and show your lack of knowledge concerning proper mechanical execution of this piece. Perhaps, because you learned it at 14 . . . which would make sense for you but what's Rob's excuse? . . . it must be those spores in the Moors, again. Sad. Very sad.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. Oh, and did I tell you the sun is the center of our solar system . . . not the earth????? But, pleaseeeeeee don't invoke the spirit of Pope Paul V and Cardinal Bellamine to punish me for my blasphemy. Did I say, sad? Very sad. M
    Anyone with normal hearing can hear that the arpeggio notes ring on during Bream’s performance. You can also clearly see that he is not damping the bass notes after one beat.

    But then you are the guy who thinks that all the pedal tones in Herbie Hancock’s ‘Dolphin Dance’ are just simple E major chords (as per a recent thread), so we can all judge your hearing for ourselves.

    Has it not occurred to you that you make yourself look utterly foolish before the whole forum with these opinions? It’s quite incredible frankly.

    And the sarcasm is childish and unnecessary. Do I respond to your posts like that?

    If you wish to dig a deeper hole for yourself, please carry on!

  18. #42
    O.K, boys and girls,
    You just won't believe Marinero so here's a video lesson of BMV999. Here's the important parts:

    10:59--"one note at a time"
    11:08--"rests"
    12:14--"planting thumb" to stop sound
    12:38-- lute silences sound
    12:52--personal choice to "mute" or "ring"
    13:08-- easier to let ring
    So: 10:59 to 13:08 corroborate all my statements and establishes that it is correct to play it as I described but it is easier to play letting the notes ring--ergo, the confusion among JGF's less educated CG's. However, I do give everyone a pass except our pedantic professor MacKillop who, above all, should have known this as a teacher/educator. But, ya know the old saying" Those who can "do" . . . those who "can't" teach . . . which is for certain in Rob's case.
    A final remark to my loyal detractors: just because you dislike someone does not mean that they are not knowledgeable or competent and their refusal to provide a video of their playing has nothing to do with their ability/artistry as it does with a need for privacy and anonymity.
    Play live . . . Marinero





    P.S. These are my last remarks to these absurd and close-minded/uneducated posts by CG pretenders to the throne of knowledge. Did I mention earlier the sun IS the center of our solar system???????? M

  19. #43

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    LOL, he lets the notes ring in the chords as well, the stuff about optional rests and muting are only for the bass line

  20. #44

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    Well, I couldn't resist having a look at that last post by Marinero, as this thread has been a constant source of humour for me...and so it continues.

    Marinero tells us that this guy "establishes that it is correct to play it as I described". Firstly, what authority does he have to "establish" anything? Bach alone has that authority, and he's not a forum member here, sadly. Secondly, he is clearly talking about the bass notes, whereas you were talking about every 16th note - see post #28 above: this requires lifting after each 1/16th note--not playing it like a
    Jazz chord progression holding the chord until your shift. Each note is played separately. This occurs throughout the piece in every measure as written.

    He also says some dubious things about the lute and lute players: at 12'49" "Sustain dies quicker on guitars than lutes" - not true at all, especially if the lute is gut strung, as it should be. Sorry, Marinero, you have not convinced me that either this guy is an authority on Bach or lutes, or that he supports what you have said. He might well be embarrassed to be associated with your comments.

    But please don't give up on this discussion. I haven't had such a good laugh in years.

    Actually, I feel bad about writing that last sentence. It is immature. You are entitled to your opinion. But, it is your immature derision of anyone who disagrees with you that forces me to be so immature in return. I'll stop that now. I want to be a better, more sensitive person, but, man, you make it hard! And I don't accept your comment about not contributing a recording because you want to preserve your anonymity. You can upload a phone recording or anonymous (headless) video. No one will ever know who you are. But at a stroke you might shut us all up, with your superb, authoritative performance. Please do!

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    O.K, boys and girls,
    You just won't believe Marinero so here's a video lesson of BMV999. Here's the important parts:

    10:59--"one note at a time"
    11:08--"rests"
    12:14--"planting thumb" to stop sound
    12:38-- lute silences sound
    12:52--personal choice to "mute" or "ring"
    13:08-- easier to let ring
    So: 10:59 to 13:08 corroborate all my statements and establishes that it is correct to play it as I described but it is easier to play letting the notes ring--ergo, the confusion among JGF's less educated CG's. However, I do give everyone a pass except our pedantic professor MacKillop who, above all, should have known this as a teacher/educator. But, ya know the old saying" Those who can "do" . . . those who "can't" teach . . . which is for certain in Rob's case.
    A final remark to my loyal detractors: just because you dislike someone does not mean that they are not knowledgeable or competent and their refusal to provide a video of their playing has nothing to do with their ability/artistry as it does with a need for privacy and anonymity.
    Play live . . . Marinero





    P.S. These are my last remarks to these absurd and close-minded/uneducated posts by CG pretenders to the throne of knowledge. Did I mention earlier the sun IS the center of our solar system???????? M
    I don’t think anything you are saying is really helping your case. Probably should post some of your playing, tbh. Otherwise you just come across as a bit silly.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    LOL, he lets the notes ring in the chords as well, the stuff about optional rests and muting are only for the bass line
    Ok so the mystery is solved, it was about bass note muting (which is perfectly valid) but Marinero thought it applied to the arpeggio notes as well.

    He seems to have a talent for this sort of misunderstanding.
    Last edited by grahambop; 09-21-2021 at 03:58 PM.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    O.K.,G,
    ...your lack of knowledge concerning proper mechanical execution of this piece. Perhaps, because you learned it at 14 . . .
    For the record, I was taught classical guitar for 6 years from the age of 12 by a professional performing classical guitarist based in London who had a teaching diploma/B. mus. degree from the Royal College of Music. He taught me how to play BWV 999 amongst other pieces. I think he knew what he was doing, given that I took and passed some Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music (ABRSM) classical guitar exams.

    My son also plays BWV 999 the same way I do. He was taught classical guitar from the age of 9 and passed all the ABRSM classical guitar grades (1 to 8) with distinction by the time he left school. For a while, he was taught by Laura Snowden, a rising UK classical guitarist who was hand-picked by Julian Bream to continue his legacy of performing new commissioned works. Prior to that, he was taught by Laura’s own teacher. (All this luckily came about because Laura and her teacher used to live near us).

    How did you learn classical guitar? Not solely by misunderstanding youtube videos, I hope?

  24. #48

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    Anyone remember Targuit? I wonder if Marinero knows him...

  25. #49

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    It's all rather sad.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    Anyone remember Targuit? I wonder if Marinero knows him...
    lol, yeah that thought occurred to me too during the course of this thread.

    At least targuit did eventually post a clip after about 5 years of promising!