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  1. #1

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    I switched my 10 string Bartolex to Yepes tuning a few months ago and am really enjoying the sound. I'm using La Bella 10MT strings. The bottom four strings in descending order are C2, Bb2, Ab2, F#2. Though I'm not playing the lower strings in this video, I can fret the 7th string for extended range.

    Any other extended range classical players out there?


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Here’s my page for the 10-string, mostly in Yepes’ tuning:

    Multi-String Guitars | rmclassicalguitar

    By the way, Dave, what do you think the original tempo indication is for Adelita?

  4. #3

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    Great web site, Rob! I will definitely be going through it this summer. :-)

    Re: original tempo - I honestly don't know what Tarrega had in mind for this one. I've seen enough different tempo indications that I assume most are simply the publishers' suggestions.

    Though I've most often heard Adelita played toward the low end of andante, the word "mazurka" in the title would suggest a fairly lively tempo. I think it can work well across a range of tempos, though evoking very different feelings.

    Looks like you are a Tarrega scholar. Would love to hear any thoughts you'd like to share!

    PS: Really liked your "Tombeau for Charlie Haden". I had not thought to record my fretless bass acoustically until now ...

  5. #4

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    Tárrega's tempo marking was Lento. Mazurkas came in all sorts of tempos, and we also have to wonder what Tárrega thought a Mazurka was. But we know for sure he wanted Adelita very slow. If you want to know what Tárrega did, then you can only work from his manuscripts (published by ASC Music) or the earliest publications from his own time (published by Chanterelle). You'd be amazed and hopefully appalled at the changes editors make so that they can claim money for their own edition.

    I don't give a damn what some Joe Bloggs thinks Tárrega should have written, their improvements never improve anything. On the other hand, when someone like Mel Bay makes an edition which is clearly not pretending to be what Tárrega wrote, then I can certainly enjoy playing it:



    Here's my take:



    I applaud you, Dave, for doing your own thing with it. Why not? It's good to hear things done differently. Keep up the good work.

    Yes - fretless bass unplugged can be very interesting!

  6. #5

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    "Tárrega's tempo marking was Lento. " Rob MacKillop

    I knew I was going to get sucked into this one! So, Rob is correct about the tempo for a "proper" rendering of "Adelita". And, since "Adelita" and "Lagrima" are usually companion pieces in performance, they are traditionally close in tempo and expressiveness. Tarrega was a master of poetry and to perform these two compositions similar to a Bach Scherzo are clearly wrong. And, the real tempo is taken from the music itself. For example, if you play Schubert's "Ave Maria" or Chopin's "Prelude" up tempo, you not only have failed the composer but also have failed the basic sensibilities of good musicianship since the "feel" of the music is inappropriate. And, for the record, "Adelita" is not a dance. . . it is an expressive, lyrical poem that should be played as such. So, Adelita played by Df is too fast and ,by Rob, a touch too slow for my tastes although Rob's "Lagrima" is right on the money.
    Finally, there comes a time in musicianship where tempo markings are really unnecessary(as in many Classical compositions from the Renaissance/Baroque Periods) since the composer assumes the performing musician's sensibilities can interpret tempo with little or no variations from the composer's original intent based on the written music. And, despite the erroneous tempo marking on "Adelita" as a Mazurka, it is clearly not and the evidence is in Df's performance which doesn't work for me nor do I believe it would work for Tarrega. However, this, in no way, creates a barrier to creativity but rather is a foundation for expression within the musical context. Here's Per Olev Kindgren's performance which is played at proper tempo with great personal expression and faithful to Tarrega's musical intent. Interesting post!

    https://youtu.be/PrQBNeY-y0A
    Play live . . . Marinero

  7. #6

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    Marinero, you always express yourself confidently, as if you are a maestro who should be listened to. You throw out judgement calls as if you knew what you were talking about, and we should respect what you say. I would urge forum readers to feel that you are no more qualified than they are to determine what is right or wrong, and for my part I couldn't care less whether you say my performances are "on the money" or not. At least Dave put his money where his mouth is, so to speak.

    What is "erroneous" about Tárrega's own tempo marking as a Mazurka? Are you an expert on mazurkas? If so, you will know that they can be both slow and fast. He is quite clear in his indication that he wants it to be a slow mazurka. The notes outlined on the second beat (typically accented for the dance) outline the dominant chord: B F# D# B (the piece is of course Em during this section). So the music itself tells us that Tárrega at least had heard or read that the second beat was to be accented. In the B section he often deliberately omits a note on the second beat, which is one way of highlighting by feel. The high E in b.11 and the high G in b.14 are perfectly placed on the second beat, all the more noticeable as a result of the avoided second-beat notes in this section.

    Per-Olov often accents the first beat of the bar in his videoed performance...I'll say no more.

    Sometimes it is harder to play very slow. It requires a certain technique to sustain a line slowly, which is why many players deliberately play faster than the indicated tempo marking. They can also find it hard to express deep emotional feelings, and therefore playing faster eradicates any need to do so.

    There is plenty of evidence in the ORIGINAL score, that Tárrega knew what a Mazurka was, and that he wanted it to be played slow: Lento. You might prefer it otherwise - faster and with accents in other places - but you are calling on nothing but your own subjective taste.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Marinero, you always express yourself confidently, as if you are a maestro who should be listened to. You throw out judgement calls as if you knew what you were talking about, and we should respect what you say. I would urge forum readers to feel that you are no more qualified than they are to determine what is right or wrong, and for my part I couldn't care less whether you say my performances are "on the money" or not. At least Dave put his money where his mouth is, so to speak.

    What is "erroneous" about Tárrega's own tempo marking as a Mazurka? Are you an expert on mazurkas? If so, you will know that they can be both slow and fast. He is quite clear in his indication that he wants it to be a slow mazurka. The notes outlined on the second beat (typically accented for the dance) outline the dominant chord: B F# D# B (the piece is of course Em during this section). So the music itself tells us that Tárrega at least had heard or read that the second beat was to be accented. In the B section he often deliberately omits a note on the second beat, which is one way of highlighting by feel. The high E in b.11 and the high G in b.14 are perfectly placed on the second beat, all the more noticeable as a result of the avoided second-beat notes in this section.

    Per-Olov often accents the first beat of the bar in his videoed performance...I'll say no more.

    Sometimes it is harder to play very slow. It requires a certain technique to sustain a line slowly, which is why many players deliberately play faster than the indicated tempo marking. They can also find it hard to express deep emotional feelings, and therefore playing faster eradicates any need to do so.

    There is plenty of evidence in the ORIGINAL score, that Tárrega knew what a Mazurka was, and that he wanted it to be played slow: Lento. You might prefer it otherwise - faster and with accents in other places - but you are calling on nothing but your own subjective taste.
    Hi, R,
    Thanks for the honest reply. That's what makes for a good discussion. So, in re: paragraph one, I do assume that people should respect my right to speak freely on various topics since I am giving my honest opinion irrespective of a lifetime of intelligent listening, musical study, and performance. However, I don't expect them to agree with me unless it is something for which they ,also, believe to be true. This, of course, is the object of a serious discussion so that an intelligent reader may glean from a cornucopia of remarks that which best suits them and their playing and philosophy. Secondly, I didn't expect this discussion to morph into a "talent show" where we pick "The World's Greatest Guitarist" but rather a venue for expressing one's personal convictions about music and in this case--the OP's/your performances.
    Second paragraph: give me an example of a Mazurka in slow tempo. Mazurkas are defined everywhere(and played) as "A lively Polish dance in triple time." But, irrespective of tempo indications, the music itself does not imply a quicker tempo. In regards to strict accents of the beats, you have a point there but my focus was on the tempo which is obvious to, all, if it is too slow, too fast, etc.
    Paragraph Four: when you say sometimes its harder to play slowly, I would agree since it contravenes, in this case, the natural tempo/pace of the music. Imagine playing any piece of music under tempo . . . it's very difficult since it creates a disconnect in a musical brain. This is also a problem with many beginning guitar students ,that you know well as a teacher, but this is certainly not the case with you and the OP which is not lack of technique/skills but rather a personal decision of tempo.
    Last paragraph: I agree that it is to be played slowly, but not dragging. That's my only caveat in regards to tempo.
    So, finally, it appears your feathers were ruffled since you took my remarks as an attack which, for me, they were clearly not but rather an expression of my honest opinion. But, if you were expecting only praise from respondents, you shouldn't have posted your video(s). As far as my qualifications, how could anyone be the judge without knowing me personally and the experiences of my life? There are some of us who prefer anonymity in all online discussions for personal reasons, but I have honestly shared many of my musical experiences relevant to discussions in an open and honest way. Take it or leave it . . . I really don't care.
    Finally, when one chooses to showcase a video/recording of their playing, they should expect members to give their honest opinion . . . not just obligatory and shallow praise. Otherwise, what's the point? In both above cases, I never criticized your playing ability . . . only your slower tempo and the OP's interpretation for which I ,wholeheartedly, disagree on both academic and performance standards. I hope my remarks are clear. So remember the words of the late, great Winston Churchill: "Whenever two people think the same about everything . . . only one person is thinking."

    Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. If I were on your home turf, I'd offer you a double dram of Glenmorangie Signet in good faith . . . M

  9. #8

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    Your use of language obfuscates what was a very simple discussion: Tárrega knew what a mazurka was (I give the evidence) and knew what tempo he wanted. Those two things are irrefutable. In pointing them out I was in no way reacting as if under attack. I can’t see anywhere where you attack me, or where I say you attacked me. In fact this is the second thread in a week where my disagreement with you has led you to declare I felt personally attacked. I didn’t then, and I don’t now.

    Look, I’ve said all I want to say on the subject: that Tárrega knew what he was doing compositionally and as regards tempo. The rest is all verbiage. I’ll unsubscribe from this thread.

    Sorry, Dave. It was nice of you to post your video, though a classical-guitar forum might be a better place for it.

  10. #9

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    Thanks to you both for the constructive comments. I have some exploring to do with this one. :-)

    Rob, do you happen to have a pointer to the ASC Music manuscripts? I'm not having much luck. The Chanterelle editions appear to be out of print.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Your use of language obfuscates what was a very simple discussion: Tárrega knew what a mazurka was (I give the evidence) and knew what tempo he wanted. Those two things are irrefutable. In pointing them out I was in no way reacting as if under attack. I can’t see anywhere where you attack me, or where I say you attacked me. In fact this is the second thread in a week where my disagreement with you has led you to declare I felt personally attacked. I didn’t then, and I don’t now.

    Look, I’ve said all I want to say on the subject: that Tárrega knew what he was doing compositionally and as regards tempo. The rest is all verbiage. I’ll unsubscribe from this thread.

    Sorry, Dave. It was nice of you to post your video, though a classical-guitar forum might be a better place for it.
    Hi, R,
    I'm not a mind reader but I am well versed in the English language. Your comments are quite clearly disparaging ,in intent and inference, to me. Others can judge for themselves. I have agreed and explained in my last post that Tarrega intended "Adelita" to be adagio despite the the Mazurka label/confusion. Differences in tempo ,by many performers, varies little in performance but it should not be "dragged" nor should it be rushed. It's quite simple in compositional intent and practice. Further, Dave, the OP, is an accomplished musician and he didn't post in a CG Forum but on JGF for comments. However, I've played CG as long as you have Rob and "Adelita" was one of the first pieces I learned/studied and continue to perform today. So, to disparage my remarks, or others on JGF as a poor place for comments on this topic is arrogant and presumptive. Despite your lifelong dedication to Music, your "Adelita" is not the definitive version despite it being played well.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. I do sincerely admire your dedication to a life in Music when so many other musicians who played professionally in our generation, like myself, left for more lucrative prospects for employment in life. Thanks to an early retirement, I've been back at it for years until the recent Age of Covid. M

  12. #11

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    Sounds great, Dave. Quicker than what we're used to hearing (as mentioned by Rob and Pastasauce), but very nice regardless.

    I used to play this one in a former life as a classical guitarist. It's on my (long) list of pieces to relearn as I rebuild from the ground up as a no-nails player, inspired by Rob!