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  1. #76

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    I played on lute a little through the Feranoli book you uploaded... I like that they represent different textures and seem to be really provocative to use various imitations and long notes.. that is they really presume a piece of music to be composed.

    I did not manage to play on spot something that would really worth recording but I will use that collection for the next couple of weeks and hopefully I will come back here with some realizations.

    Thank you

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I played on lute a little through the Feranoli book you uploaded... I like that they represent different textures and seem to be really provocative to use various imitations and long notes.. that is they really presume a piece of music to be composed.

    I did not manage to play on spot something that would really worth recording but I will use that collection for the next couple of weeks and hopefully I will come back here with some realizations.

    Thank you
    I’d love to hear them

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    See above. Hopefully I’ll loosen up a bit as it gets more natural, but I’m not sure if partimento is ever going to be easy for me… it feels quite academic and exercise-y at the moment, but that’s practice for you .

    I can’t remember if you said if you’d tried this type of thing?

    Enjoying your sound cloud clips btw. I’d like to hear those compositions studio recorded at some point.
    Well, I have never consciously sat down and played partimenti though I do have a penchant for the Baroque and it resonates well with me. I will look out for anything else you post.

    Thanks for listening to my demo/s. After summer I'll be trying to rope some local musicians into some kind of unlucrative venture.

  5. #79

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    Some thoughts...

    All the partiment in this collection seem to be rather basses for pieces than excercises.

    Some pieces have lots of figures that definitely show melodic voice/countepoint (Bach's figures are usually countepoint) but some are definitely more harmonic... (consider also the collection is realtively late).

    I also thought than in real music it is often a harmony.

    Here is an example from Marcello's sonata.
    You see 6 over A in the bass, and if you look at the melodic voice there is clear motive that generally 'lives its own life'/

    Try to imagine you see that bass without meleody.. .would the idea to compose that melody come to your mind?

    6 here just clearly indicated F major harmony. And there are plenty of places like this wehre figures do not indicate nessaricaly an obligatory higher voice but they indicate harmony to avoid mistakes.
    Attached Images Attached Images Classical & Baroque Improvisation-5-jpeg 

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Some thoughts...

    All the partiment in this collection seem to be rather basses for pieces than excercises.

    Some pieces have lots of figures that definitely show melodic voice/countepoint (Bach's figures are usually countepoint) but some are definitely more harmonic... (consider also the collection is realtively late).

    I also thought than in real music it is often a harmony.

    Here is an example from Marcello's sonata.
    You see 6 over A in the bass, and if you look at the melodic voice there is clear motive that generally 'lives its own life'/

    Try to imagine you see that bass without meleody.. .would the idea to compose that melody come to your mind?

    6 here just clearly indicated F major harmony. And there are plenty of places like this wehre figures do not indicate nessaricaly an obligatory higher voice but they indicate harmony to avoid mistakes.
    Yeah I think that’s all correct. The basses are for short pieces; if things come out sounding like exercises that’s more a reflection on the student haha. I’m sure any of the professional c18 musicians could have made something very musical out of these materials.

    Things to look out for; imitation ideas suggested in the bass, ‘boring bits’ in long notes etc where the student is expected to do something with the other voices. You see this a bit even in the first two.

    So, in the Marcello example I would probably notice the rhythmic motif (especially as the idea is repeated) and rough melodic contour in the bass and do something with that, for example. I would also probably do something with those quarter notes in the second bar. That’s the idea anyway :-)

    Fenaroli’s basses are quite well known for their clever pedagogy.

    have a look at the other books. Book II is more advanced figured basses, Book III introduces the regole (rules) and then in Book IV and V you are on your own.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 07-24-2021 at 07:32 AM.

  7. #81

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    For my realisations of 3 and no 4, I used quite a schemata based approach; for instance recognising that there are some Fonte and Monte style progressions and so on, and pairing them with typical melodies for that bass. So less motivic on that one.

    I think that sort of thing will be helpful for a 21st century human attempting unfigured basses (tbh I don’t look at the figures that much even now). Back in the day no one would be attempting partimenti without a thorough background in old Italian solfeggio (a whole other can of improvisational worms haha)

  8. #82

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    Some historical exemplar realisations
    http://partimenti.org/partimenti/abo...alizations.pdf


    here is no 1 in the style of an aria
    Classical & Baroque Improvisation-c38b3411-361a-46c6-8212-9f92927c31a7-jpeg
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 07-24-2021 at 08:04 AM.

  9. #83

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    Prelude time



    i would dig it if someone else would have a go at this bass
    Classical & Baroque Improvisation-f912be44-d2c8-4587-916b-774a0ed8c1ee-jpeg

  10. #84

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    Thanks! I am following...
    and I kept playing through Fenaroli...

    And theank you for historical relization, always noce to have a look at one, I will go through it tonight.

    Whne I tried to play first partimenti from this book I just went intuitives ... probably just figuring out some spots and cadences in advances but generally it was also sort of an aria style... I guess it is the easiest approach for the one more or less trained in such music in genel.
    More difficult would be to play/compose something more thematically individual with motivic consistency and melodi statements...

    Also I tried to play it simplest possible way and even comciously using 'rules' and as much as possible 'one note against one bass' principle.

    Fonte and Monte
    What is it ... some comic duo?

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Prelude time



    i would dig it if someone else would have a go at this bass
    Classical & Baroque Improvisation-f912be44-d2c8-4587-916b-774a0ed8c1ee-jpeg
    Seems like a typo in 12th bar the cadence in D starts... not in G

  12. #86

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    Some historical exemplar realisations
    http://partimenti.org/partimenti/abo...alizations.pdf
    It remids me so much Russian system... all these collection of harmonization tasks.

    I guess it existed already in late 19th century (Tchaikovsky wrote the first Harmonic manual in Russian that was totally based on German music).
    And I believe it was vivd till 1940-50s meaning the students could really play pices from these excercises and after that it began to become more and more 'paperwork' and more dry and mechanical... when I sudied it was often very formal, students just played chords and that was enough to pass.

    But if one uses them creatively and has his own reason to make choices and judgement it may be helpful: they are well-structured by topics like chordal and non-chordal tones, modulations, suspensions, 6 chords, various types of cadences and so and so...

    Also they were not only for bass, but also for melody too whic is usually easier.

    Probably the biggest difference thta it is all built around 19th centuray Romantic music. And as a result stylistically it would come out as Schumann's sonata rather than Haydn's... for example.

    Though generally speaking the harmonic language basis was the same since High Baroque... so it opened that door too for sure just with some stylistic amendements concerning texture, ornaments, and some harmonic nuances.


    it is interesting also that Russian teacching of counterpoint was totally built on Taneev's method. All the detailed theory and terminology were developed by him.. it is very well-systemized and mathematecally precise.
    And we just took it for granted. Much later I found out that teachers and students in Germany or Austria have no idea about these counterpoint methods. There they usually use old traditional methods coming from pre-Bachian periods.

  13. #87

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    I'd be happy to spend some time here. It makes for a nice diversion from learning a 3 hour set list!!

    I did my classical studies a few years ago and started dabbling in counterpoint but that didn't last long. I'll post a short clip below.

    I'll start reading this thread from the start so it will take me a little while to catch up.


  14. #88

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    Christian, the Tele is a wonderful instrument for this sort of thing - articulate and sweet. Very legit, IMHO. Thank you!

  15. #89

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    I've decided to take a different approach due to the fact that I need something applicable asap.

    To this extent I've bought Steve Herberman's Baroque Pathways 1 and after spending an hour or so with it, it looks pretty good.

    Pathways To Baroque Improvisation: Part I - Mike's Master Classes

    Stay tuned.

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    I'd be happy to spend some time here. It makes for a nice diversion from learning a 3 hour set list!!

    I did my classical studies a few years ago and started dabbling in counterpoint but that didn't last long. I'll post a short clip below.

    I'll start reading this thread from the start so it will take me a little while to catch up.

    I like this, this sounds kind of medieval to me, quite hypnotic…. The tone is very Ted Greene :-)

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    I've decided to take a different approach due to the fact that I need something applicable asap.

    To this extent I've bought Steve Herberman's Baroque Pathways 1 and after spending an hour or so with it, it looks pretty good.

    Pathways To Baroque Improvisation: Part I - Mike's Master Classes

    Stay tuned.
    This looks very cool, and I think that mash up of baroque counterpoint and jazz harmony is something I would probably want to work towards. In terms of developing true contrapuntal independence this is a problem in terms of guitar technique; you could address this through learning more baroque rep on the guitar, but it’s nice to get some different perspectives.


    I might well dig in when I have an opportunity to.

    ATM this is more ‘nerdy special interest’ for me, devoid of any immediate use, that could have equally been something like painting toy soldiers or building a train set in the shed lol. But you can’t spend much time around the Fenaroli examples or Scehmata theory without thinking - hang on that’s the B section to Alone Together, or that’s the melody and bassline in bars 1-4 of Insensatez and so on. Gjerdingen and Mortensen are mentioning this in their book.
    .

    So applications suggest themselves naturally … the other thing I like is that you don’t just learn the harmony/bass but also common melodic/voiceleading ideas to go with them, which also helps with counterpoint… these little stock pathways turn up in everything from pop to Charlie Parker

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I like this, this sounds kind of medieval to me, quite hypnotic…. The tone is very Ted Greene :-)
    Thanks Christian. It means a lot coming from you and the fact that Ted Greene is one of my favourite guitarists.

    I'm making some headway with the baroque or classical improvising thing but Rome wasn't build in a day.

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    This looks very cool, and I think that mash up of baroque counterpoint and jazz harmony is something I would probably want to work towards. In terms of developing true contrapuntal independence this is a problem in terms of guitar technique; you could address this through learning more baroque rep on the guitar, but it’s nice to get some different perspectives.


    I might well dig in when I have an opportunity to.

    ATM this is more ‘nerdy special interest’ for me, devoid of any immediate use, that could have equally been something like painting toy soldiers or building a train set in the shed lol. But you can’t spend much time around the Fenaroli examples or Scehmata theory without thinking - hang on that’s the B section to Alone Together, or that’s the melody and bassline in bars 1-4 of Insensatez and so on. Gjerdingen and Mortensen are mentioning this in their book.
    .

    So applications suggest themselves naturally … the other thing I like is that you don’t just learn the harmony/bass but also common melodic/voiceleading ideas to go with them, which also helps with counterpoint… these little stock pathways turn up in everything from pop to Charlie Parker
    I actually meant application as in applying any baroque improvisational concepts to playing live. If I can do 4 minutes improv at the start and end of each set that would be worth nearly a half hour of playing time.

    I like nerdy hobbies too. I collect gunmoney A very nerdy niche area.

    It's amazing where classical ideas, concepts and sounds turn up. Recently I've been listening to a lot of Ben Monder and imo his solo work is very heavily classically influenced.

    I must check out those authors that you mentioned.

    Also just a quick thanks to your contribution to this thread. I'm learning a lot.

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    I actually meant application as in applying any baroque improvisational concepts to playing live. If I can do 4 minutes improv at the start and end of each set that would be worth nearly a half hour of playing time.

    I like nerdy hobbies too. I collect gunmoney A very nerdy niche area.

    It's amazing where classical ideas, concepts and sounds turn up. Recently I've been listening to a lot of Ben Monder and imo his solo work is very heavily classically influenced.

    I must check out those authors that you mentioned.

    Also just a quick thanks to your contribution to this thread. I'm learning a lot.
    Oh yeah! Mortensen particularly, and Gjerdingen is interesting conceptually but Mortensen gives you a ‘how to’ much more. My idea is if I get any good at this, to put Mortenson’s approach into a format that’s more accessible for guitar players.

    And then there’s Sanguinetti who details all the patterns and rules and so on but less accessible. But a great source book once you’ve got started.

    Peter Croton’s figured bass book is a great primer for figured bass.

    The trick is finding stuff that works well on guitar…. That guy’s course talks a lot about tenths, for instance…

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Oh yeah! Mortensen particularly, and Gjerdingen is interesting conceptually but Mortensen gives you a ‘how to’ much more. My idea is if I get any good at this, to put Mortenson’s approach into a format that’s more accessible for guitar players.

    And then there’s Sanguinetti who details all the patterns and rules and so on but less accessible. But a great source book once you’ve got started.

    Peter Croton’s figured bass book is a great primer for figured bass.

    The trick is finding stuff that works well on guitar…. That guy’s course talks a lot about tenths, for instance…
    I'll work with you on the Mortensen stuff. What a great book!!

  22. #96

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    So today I watched a Tim Lerch YT clip, the one about counterpoint on Ted Greene's 10th anniversary, and he said to stay diatonic at the start and the first example he gives us a bass in quarters and melody in eights.

    I made up a little pattern and ran it up and down the C major scale. There's something in this alright so I'll keep on practising it. I'll also write a few more patterns so that I can mix and match.

    Hopefully it'll sound pretty good then. Bit jumpy at the moment needs to be smoother. Here is a 1 4 5 progression. The bass plays 1 3 5 1.

    https://youtube.com/shorts/Fgxp8SEmxiQ?feature=share

  23. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    So today I watched a Tim Lerch YT clip, the one about counterpoint on Ted Greene's 10th anniversary, and he said to stay diatonic at the start and the first example he gives us a bass in quarters and melody in eights.

    I made up a little pattern and ran it up and down the C major scale. There's something in this alright so I'll keep on practising it. I'll also write a few more patterns so that I can mix and match.

    Hopefully it'll sound pretty good then. Bit jumpy at the moment needs to be smoother. Here is a 1 4 5 progression. The bass plays 1 3 5 1.

    https://youtube.com/shorts/Fgxp8SEmxiQ?feature=share
    sounds good!

    I would say I think I’m approaching this a bit different in that actual true counterpoint isn’t something I’m really thinking about at the moment, in the sense of having independence of the voices, but it’s something that I’ll need to get around to eventually.

    Schools of thought differ but I think Sanguinetti described Partimento as a four step process; this could be applied to the realisation of any bass or chord progression (I also don’t see why it would be limited to c18 styles actually.)

    - basic chords (what Fenaroli would call ‘consonances’
    - suspensions
    - diminutions (so smaller note values, passing tones etc)
    - imitation (so motives in one voice show up in another with exact and similar repetition in the manner of a fugue.)

    So of these three I’m mostly doing the first two, edging into the third occasionally. The last two obviously require the most independence.

    The last is building up to more fugal textures. I think this is very hard to maintain on guitar and all of the fugues I’ve seen on guitar - Weiss’s or the Bach violin fugue for example - move between contrapuntal and more block chord like or arpeggiated textures. But modern electric and archtop guitars offer a bit more playability/range and it’s certainly quite common to hear jazzers playing two part inventions from the original piano score which is only really practicable on modern instruments with high fret access - in fact it’s a rite of passage in some circles (not that I’ve done it lol.)

    What Sanguinetti didn’t mention but others have is textural variety which I think is very important and also quite natural to the guitar

    here’s a few basic textures I can think of:
    - aria style
    - figuration prelude style
    - homophonic ‘chorale’ style
    - dance style gavotte/courante/gigue etc
    - fugal/counterpoint style

    I feel like all of these have analogs in jazz guitar playing. In fact Lage Lund talks about deciding if he is going to play a standard in chorale style or whatever….
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-02-2021 at 04:27 AM.

  24. #98

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  25. #99

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    I would say I think I’m approaching this a bit different in that actual true counterpoint isn’t something I’m really thinking about at the moment, in the sense of having independence of the voices, but it’s something that I’ll need to get around to eventually.
    It is interesting that I had recently conversation with a friend: very good harpsichordist, pianist... and fantastic classical improvizer (very natural and creative improvizational gift he has especially within Romantic music idioms - he really makes statements with his impros).

    We discussed also the couterpoint figured bass stuff... btw he mentioned again that Bach's continuo realization was considered to be very busy and not that typical for general practice probably - also his figures were more indicative of countepoint than harmony (also not the most typical case in the period)---

    But the most interesting part was about keybaords and lutes/guitar... we discussed an idea that on lute/guitar it is not that important to follow counterpoint strictly... the nature of the instrument allows to play parallel intervals for example and it would not sound annoying... it is not only its complexity in fingering application but also its sonority, different tone in different position, acoustics etc.

    On piano it is quite opposite.. as my friend put it: keyboard has mostly 1:1 relationship between the technical idea and the sounding note.

    Also keyboard is less flexible than guitar... and sonically it makes everything sound a bit more straight forward (of course it depends on the performer too)...

    The exquisite counterpoint is the natural part of keyboard instruments... it is easier to see visually, to concieve, to do in real practice.

    And the domination of keyboard in musical practice in since 18th century somehow implied 'keyboard practice' as 'standard abstract practice'

    Lutists playing continuo obviously do much more chordal stuff than harpsichordists (and especially organists!).
    Lutists can afford adding one-two notes in the middle voices and may drop it in the next bar and it will stay unnoticed and sound ok.
    They always did it - even in renaissance period lute recercares it is often difficult to clearly identify voiced in tab as they just drop out and come back.

    To me it concerns jazz guitar too... shifting parallel shapes over the fretboard can create very intensive harmonic movements that a pianist would hardly ever do on reasons mentioned above...
    On the other hand - complex (and correct) counterpoint texture on guitar may lack the freedom and expressivense of that on keyboard...

    Jazzy application of 'quasi baroque' is a bit different thing.. mostly - as with Ted Greene or Tim Lerch or Pasquale Grasso - they function as a sort of embelishment ... they are there for fun, for sounding nice.. they are not mandatory for the general meaning of the piece.

    in real baroque/classical they have intensive role within semantics of the form. Adding one or dropping out may change the meaning of the piece.PS
    I am following the thread and I hope to share with my lute realizations soon...
    Last edited by Jonah; 08-03-2021 at 04:30 AM.

  26. #100

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    Exactly. I think I mentioned earlier I detected a macho vibe from guitar players trying to emulate keyboard players: "Look how many notes I can fit in! I'm doing it CORRECT!", whereas lute players never bothered with that kind of complexity, yet still contributed something more suited to their instruments.