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  1. #1

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    My father got me a Segovia album before I had even learned how to play a chord.

    You can't analyze something you can't play! (Robert Conti)

    Technique is the means to play just like your voice is your means to speak. (Robert Conti)

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Simply stated, Andres Segovia put the classical guitar on the face of the map.

    Until Andres Segovia the guitar was a folk instrument. Segovia transcribed countless classical compositions originally written for piano, violin, cello, lute, and harpsichord for the guitar - elevating the guitar to a concert instrument status.

    He also had concertos written for guitar and symphony orchestra for the first time in history which further cemented the guitar's concert hall reputation.

    Regards,
    Steven Herron
    Andres Segovia Tabs - Guitar Solos, Tab Books, Instruction DVDs + Video Lessons

  4. #3

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    growing up..I had the great fortune to actually watch Segovia on a local TV channel..giving master classes..this was before I knew what a guitar was..the usual questions ran through my mind.."how long does it take to get that good.." how do you remember where your fingers go.."-- that one was hard to understand .. it just seemed impossible..

    I was riveted when he would stop a student in mid-play and "fine tune" the players technique..I often wondered how it would be at the "feet of the master" as it were..That question was answered when I studied with Ted Greene..
    play well ...
    wolf

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Herron View Post

    Until Andres Segovia the guitar was a folk instrument.
    I am looking at my filing cabinet, now I walk over and open the shelf where eighteenth and nineteenth century music lives. Lets see.

    Yup that urtext edition of the complete Regondi works seems genuine.

    There is no truth to the statement quoted. I think you mean.

    'In English speaking countries, once Segovia had become a marketable concert artist within them, people who knew the guitar as a folk instrument and more recently as an electric instrument and furthermore knew little or nothing about classical music except from guitar were instructed by Segovia to believe whatever suited his wallet and ego. A long time has passed but even the most patently vainglorious myths endure so long as cynics perpetuate them for their own gain. Foolhardy is the man who question them for, once fooled, every sap becomes am advocate'

    Readers please note I have NOT commented on Segovia's playing.

    D.

  6. #5

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    I don't know a lot about him but seem to remember reading that he had to deal with a lot of bias against the instrument in classical circles. They said it was a folk or parlor instrument, and that there was insufficient repertoire for it.

    He then collaborated with a number of composers who wrote modern masterpieces for the guitar, and that helped change things quite dramatically and the rest is history. (Bream and Williams did the same to varying degrees).

    Of course, Sor, Carcassi, Aguado, Tarrega and others preceded him. All master/virtuoso concert performers.

    Finally, his followers and proteges exceeded him, playing wise. But then they had a model to listen to, on vinyl.
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 08-17-2018 at 12:25 AM.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    I don't know a lot about him but seem to remember reading that he had to deal with a lot of bias against the instrument in classical circles. They said it was a folk or parlor instrument, and that there was insufficient repertoire for it.

    He then collaborated with a number of composers who wrote modern masterpieces for the guitar, and that helped change things quite dramatically and the rest is history. (Bream and Williams did the same to varying degrees).

    Of course, Sor, Carcassi, Aguado, Tarrega and others preceded him. All master/virtuoso concert performers.

    Finally, his followers and proteges exceeded him, playing wise. But then they had a model to listen to, on vinyl.
    There are still the same voices claiming that guitar is a mere folk instrument Classical circles. The same prejudice and sneering attitude to guitar music is more frequently and publicly heard from people who learned it from Segovia. I personally love folk music and don't buy the high and low art argument, there is taste and there is integrity high and low are less useful labels.


    I personally prefer Barrios who was recording at the same time as Segovia and living in a continent, South America where a rich fountain of aural tradition in classical guitar playing existed. There were also of course many fine composers from that tradition and styles like Choro which had the discipline rhythmically of folk music but mixed the chromaticism of ragtime and early jazz with Bach like melodic construction. And of course modern players play Barrios still.

    Whether or not Segovia's pupils exceed him is a matter of taste. What is certain is that taste has moved on since his recordings and some of the devices he used are no longer felt to be in good taste by modern recording artists.

    In the end one has to decide what one would rather believe, facts that are easily verified, or blanket statements designed to manipulate people too lazy to check delivered by a charasmatic narcissist who plays into their prejudices.

    I realise that I might be in the minority in preferring the former.

    Segovia accurately predicted that that would be the minority position.

    This prediction still finds success, in the right quarters.

    D.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel View Post
    There are still the same voices claiming that guitar is a mere folk instrument Classical circles. The same prejudice and sneering attitude

    In the end one has to decide what one would rather believe, facts that are easily verified, or blanket statements designed to manipulate people too lazy to check delivered by a charasmatic narcissist who plays into their prejudices.


    D.
    No doubt. The success of the electric guitar and pop/rock music probably influences some of that. Interestingly, The Concierto De Aranjuez is the most requested concerto by US symphony patrons.

    Regarding your other comments, please expand. I would be interested to know more about what you're saying.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    No doubt. The success of the electric guitar and pop/rock music probably influences some of that. Interestingly, The Concierto De Aranjuez is the most requested concerto by US symphony patrons.



    Even more interestingly Segovia never played or recorded the Aranjuez. It was premiered by Regina Sainz de la Maza, one of the great many virtuosos, classical and flamenco performing in Spain at the same time as Segovia. At only three years younger than Segovia La Maza was probably not terribly influenced by Segovia although he did train many of the pupils that claimed, for business purposes, to be students of Segovia.


    There are various opinions as to why Segovia didn't play it, you can look around for them if you want. Political differences seem to be the most common. Why learn a terribly difficult piece by a composer that Franco might be expected to bury ?

    Once he realised he had missed the boat he did request and record the Fantasia Para Gentilhombre which is based on THE FOLK MELODY arrangements of Gaspar Sanz, 18th century Spanish Guitar COMPOSER.

    I am happy to offer any clarification on points of fact that you request. But please take the time to familiarise with the music of everyone mentioned by playing through it first and making up your own mind as to the true history of the guitar.

    I think the fact that the Aranjuez sounds a lot like Copeland or Elmore Bernstein probably gives it a special place in the heart of Americans. Or perhaps it is the other way around either way it is meant to sound like, Flamenco , the folk music, and Composers like Bernstein and Leone and Copeland also quote folk music extensively, especially that which the Spanish influenced in their colonial possessions such as Mexico.

    Concierto de Aranjuez - Wikipedia

    Regino Sainz de la Maza - Wikipedia

    Fantasia para un gentilhombre - Wikipedia

    Gaspar Sanz - Wikipedia

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel View Post

    I am happy to offer any clarification on points of fact that you request. But please take the time to familiarise with the music of everyone mentioned by playing through it first and making up your own mind as to the true history of the guitar.
    Sure, no prob. lol But seriously, I'm familiar enough with Rodrigo's music as a listener, both his concertos and solo works. I have only heard OF Sanz, not familiar beyond that.

    Rather, I was asking you to expand on your critical commentary of Segovia's words/attitude. If you prefer not to, that's perfectly fine by me.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Herron View Post
    Simply stated, Andres Segovia put the classical guitar on the face of the map.

    Until Andres Segovia the guitar was a folk instrument. Segovia transcribed countless classical compositions originally written for piano, violin, cello, lute, and harpsichord for the guitar - elevating the guitar to a concert instrument status.

    He also had concertos written for guitar and symphony orchestra for the first time in history which further cemented the guitar's concert hall reputation.

    Regards,
    Steven Herron
    Andres Segovia Tabs - Guitar Solos, Tab Books, Instruction DVDs + Video Lessons
    Simply amazing!!
    You can't analyze something you can't play! (Robert Conti)

    Technique is the means to play just like your voice is your means to speak. (Robert Conti)

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Rather, I was asking you to expand on your critical commentary of Segovia's words/attitude. If you prefer not to, that's perfectly fine by me.
    Good, we should all stick to facts.

    Have a read through the Sanz, it's all great, you'll have heard loads of the tunes and it is pretty readable. And if you choose to have a read through the Concerti in general edit the chords to have just the two dissonances in the bass and the top line otherwise the fingering can be a little impractical. Start with the Fantasia, it's much easier. Guiliani's Concero may be more approachable.

    Here is Pavl Steidl, on period instrument, I guess they are aiming for the sound of Guilani and orchestra,premier Vienna 1808 (yup folks thats 18, not nineteen).

    Guitar Concerto No. 1 in A major,… | Details | AllMusic

    Alternatively you could check Guiliani's arrangements of Rossini, the Rossiniana.

    Or then there is Diabeli the tremendously successful music PUBLISHER, his GUITAR works are very guitaristic and his textures very classical. And of course his little waltz forms the basis of the Diabeli variations, by Beethoven, who may not have known that Diabeli played a mere folk instrument.....

    Diabelli Variations - Wikipedia


    D.

  13. #12

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    Segovia's paranoia and self-interest may well have kept the classical guitar from developing into a more acceptable and universal concert instrument, since he fought hard to hide the accomplishments of his peers, including Barrios, Sainz de la Maza, and Rey de la Torre. As brilliant as he might have been, Segovia was very protective of his career. He also played and recorded many pieces that were really beneath his level, and his programs were essentially pastiche. He didn't play complete suites, for instance, even the ones composed at his request. It fell to Bream and Williams to approach the concert programming the way other established instrumentalists did, and many of Segovia's more successful students actually studied under Jose Thomas and Alirio Diaz during the master classes. Segovia's work was very valuable, indeed, and he played some things brilliantly, but it is arguable that he really rarely approached the level of virtuosity or musicianship of his peers on piano, violin or cello. While he did establish the guitar in 20th century concert halls and in academies of music, it is the succeeding generations of guitarists who have really exposed what it is capable of.

  14. #13

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    I'm keeping away from this discussion. I've seen it many times, and it goes nowhere.

  15. #14

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    Well, with Segovia, part of the myth is that he was the one who set Django's wagon on fire after hearing his bastard devil gypsy music.

  16. #15

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    I once read a claim somewhere that Segovia was a KGB agent/informer.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if he had something to do with the assassination of JFK too.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    Segovia's paranoia and self-interest may well have kept the classical guitar from developing into a more acceptable and universal concert instrument, since he fought hard to hide the accomplishments of his peers, including Barrios, Sainz de la Maza, and Rey de la Torre. As brilliant as he might have been, Segovia was very protective of his career. He also played and recorded many pieces that were really beneath his level, and his programs were essentially pastiche. He didn't play complete suites, for instance, even the ones composed at his request. It fell to Bream and Williams to approach the concert programming the way other established instrumentalists did, and many of Segovia's more successful students actually studied under Jose Thomas and Alirio Diaz during the master classes. Segovia's work was very valuable, indeed, and he played some things brilliantly, but it is arguable that he really rarely approached the level of virtuosity or musicianship of his peers on piano, violin or cello. While he did establish the guitar in 20th century concert halls and in academies of music, it is the succeeding generations of guitarists who have really exposed what it is capable of.

    I guess it's the Ying and Yang of the man without which there would be no man.

    "Segovia's paranoia and self-interest may well have kept the classical guitar from developing into a more acceptable and universal concert instrument

    "Segovia's work was very valuable, indeed, and he played some things brilliantly, but it is arguable that he really rarely approached the level of virtuosity or musicianship of his peers on piano, violin or cello."


    A few observations:

    "he fought hard to hide the accomplishments of his peers, including Barrios, Sainz de la Maza, and Rey de la Torre."

    My thing is, was it really his job to promote his peers who were also competing for similar jobs at a time when the guitar wasn't really getting piano type acclaim? Another thought is did he really have the power to suppress and/or hide the above collective talent? I dunno if we're giving Segovia too much power so to speak.

    "He also played and recorded many pieces that were really beneath his level, and his programs were essentially pastiche."

    This accusation of sorts was pointed at Mozart. Didn't he write minuet pieces that were at the time considered "beneath him" so to speak when in fact all he was doing was trying to put food on the table by writing was considered popular but low brow? A man has gotta do what a man's gotta do (to keep flesh and body) together until that great day when...


    Just random thoughts on an imperfect chap who did a lot for the instrument we dig. ;-)
    You can't analyze something you can't play! (Robert Conti)

    Technique is the means to play just like your voice is your means to speak. (Robert Conti)

  18. #17

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    It's not unusual at all for an artist to try and manipulate and exploit the marketplace for gain, to allow them to continue working in their chosen medium. Been done forever. Does Frank Zappa ring a bell? Rembrandt? Miles?...

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    Well, with Segovia, part of the myth is that he was the one who set Django's wagon on fire after hearing his bastard devil gypsy music.
    You are a pro, I know how to spot one, you know why.

    I was tempted to say bravo but you missed out a phrase, spoiling the form.


    'got his fingers burned'.

  20. #19

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    Well, one thing I'm certain he never got around to playing was the Terzetto concertante, MS 114. Pity.

    I've had a look at it care of IMSLP and it's what you'd expect from Paganini.

    He also wrote a number of sonatinas for guitar.
    Category:Paganini, Niccolo - IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library: Free Public Domain Sheet Music