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  1. #51

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    Very nice...any Bach partitas/sonatas that would adapt well to flat pick or perhaps hybrid style?

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltunes
    Very nice...any Bach partitas/sonatas that would adapt well to flat pick or perhaps hybrid style?
    violin and cello repertoire is our best bet for plectrum or hybrid styles.

  4. #53

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    The violin and cello repertoire sounds superb on the guitar. often better than on the original instruments. the Chaconne is a guitar piece, in fact, based on a typical Spanish progression.

  5. #54

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    My wife laughs at me when I try to play the Bach cello prelude 1 on guitar (she plays cello) so I make sure she's out.

    You need a seven string for that one, really.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-23-2018 at 08:08 PM.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    The violin and cello repertoire sounds superb on the guitar
    It can do, yes



    often better than on the original instruments.
    You are off your rocker.

    the Chaconne is a guitar piece, in fact, based on a typical Spanish progression.
    Yeah, Chaconne might be Spanish, or maybe even Caribbean or South America, no one seems to be absolutely certain. Chaconnes always have a repeated ground (bass or chords), but were originally major key and bawdy in nature. Monteverdi introduced the minor tonality and the descending lamento bass, apparently, and gave it a more serious tone.

    Another distinguishing feature of the Chaconne is its triple time meter and accent on the second beat. You can still hear this in the Bach Chaconne.

    I would urge anyone interested in the history to check out Alex Ross's (the Rest is Noise) article:
    Alex Ross: The Rest Is Noise: chacona
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-23-2018 at 08:20 PM.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Really the guitar can't hold a candle can it?
    Really, it can. Period.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It can do, yes





    You are off your rocker.


    you are extraordinarily narrow-minded, and may also be deaf.

  9. #58

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    Well "better than than the original instruments" might be subjective, but many of the Bach works for solo instruments (Cello and violin, in addition of course to those for the lute) sound great on the guitar. Some lie well on the fretboard, and some can be made to work with a key change or perhaps a lowered 6th string. The violin and cello works have movements that are nearly all single lines, and can be played with a pick as well as fingers.

    A fun exercise for the cello suites (for example #3 in C) is to simply read them as though they are in the the treble clef, adjusting the chromatic notes - this puts that particular suite into A, where it fits well on the fretboard.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    you are extraordinarily narrow-minded, and may also be deaf.
    You don’t like Julian Bream then? :-)

    Cello is kind of the best sounding instrument though. You would have to be deaf or mad not to hear that.

    Modern guitar though, it’s a nice sound. Just not as nice as baroque guitar or lute, the former of which is not an option for Bach.

  11. #60

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    Anyway ronjazz, in an attempt to widen my narrow minded horizons why don’t you post a version of Bach piece that you really like pref not one of the obvious versions Bream, Segovia or Williams, that I might have heard.

    BTW I’m not entirely serious. I just like to challenge this air of legitimacy around Segovian classical guitar which I find a bit pretentious (or alternatively I have a childish desire to annoy classical guitarists.)

    Although I don’t listen to much classical guitar tbh. I make the exception for Bream and sometimes hear modern players I like on the radio.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-25-2018 at 06:53 AM.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmajor9
    Well "better than than the original instruments" might be subjective, but many of the Bach works for solo instruments (Cello and violin, in addition of course to those for the lute) sound great on the guitar. Some lie well on the fretboard, and some can be made to work with a key change or perhaps a lowered 6th string. The violin and cello works have movements that are nearly all single lines, and can be played with a pick as well as fingers.
    They do sound good if you simply play the notes, that’s the beauty of it.

    Yeah I remember spending hours playing through them for my own entertainment. Bach is always an education...

    The way a jazz musician can use these pieces is different from a classical musician.

    As a performance of Bach’s music Gilads interpretation of the two part invention obviously didn’t impress Jonah (who I regard as a bit of a Bach aficionado) but obviously is very impressive guitar playing and a great exercise for him as a jazz player. All these things have their value.

    A fun exercise for the cello suites (for example #3 in C) is to simply read them as though they are in the the treble clef, adjusting the chromatic notes - this puts that particular suite into A, where it fits well on the fretboard.
    Ha I must try that
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-25-2018 at 06:57 AM.

  13. #62

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    Sorry, Christian, I don't feel it necessary to prove anything to someone who's already made up his mind. I've studied with Williams, Ghiglia and Lagoya, as well as Pass, Martino and Kessell, and none of them felt it necessary to "challenge the legitimacy" of Segovian classical guitar, whatever that is or was long ago. Bach on the guitar is the envy of many violinists and cellists I know, by the way. If, at some point, you decide to be an adult about it, try listening to Paul Galbraith's Bach, along with Bream, Williams and the other pretentious masters who have made world-wide reputations for themselves.

  14. #63

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    Believe me most cellist or violinsts do not even know that somebody plays (or ever played) Bach on guitar!!!! (Sego- what? Segovia? Oh it's a nice plice where we had great gazpacho last summer!)

    As per playing Bach or Handel or Mozart on guitar I remember an Interview of Barthold Kuijken (by the way one of the greatest modern baroque players, and an author of a great book)....

    He was asked what baroque transverse repertory he thinks is good to play on 'flauto di voce' (for reference 'flauto di voce' is the baroque recorder in D that allegedly was invented to perform transverse baroque flute (also in D) repertory without transposition - which was usual in alto recorder in F).
    And he said: None...
    The astonished interviewr began to ask why... and Kuijken explained that diapason is not the only thing that needed for playing this repertory... that 'flauto di voce' in many cases would sound like a mezzo that tries to sing high soprano etc. etc.

    To me there is a lot of misunderstanding in performance of Bach on guitar on elctric guitar, on jazz guitar, dance, hip-hop, gipsy, rockabilly guitar...

    It's all like playing D-minor Toccata and Fugue on anything that sounds... the piece that is one of the weakest Bach and in my opinion is most probably very young Bach (or may be even fake).

    You know Segovia did not say: let's all play Bach on guitar. Segovia did not play Classical guitar. He was the only guy who played at all.. he is continuation of Spanish guitar tradition - to which neither great master Bream, no mediocracy Williams have nothing to do.

    Segovia is the instrument himself.

    After Segovia only Ghiglia seems to be able to make me listen to this instrumen and forget about it.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Sorry, Christian, I don't feel it necessary to prove anything to someone who's already made up his mind. I've studied with Williams, Ghiglia and Lagoya, as well as Pass, Martino and Kessell, and none of them felt it necessary to "challenge the legitimacy" of Segovian classical guitar
    Of course not, they have/had better things to do. I at present, do not.

    , whatever that is or was long ago. Bach on the guitar is the envy of many violinists and cellists I know,
    None of the ones I know TBH.

    by the way. If, at some point, you decide to be an adult about it, try listening to Paul Galbraith's Bach, along with Bream, Williams and the other pretentious masters who have made world-wide reputations for themselves.
    I grew up with Julian Bream's recordings. He can make a case for Bach, Weiss etc on the guitar, and those recordings were my introduction to those pieces, but in general I would rather hear that music on the instrument it was written for. Bream, Segovia I make an exception for because they are GENIUS level musicians...

    In the case of Sanz, Visee, etc, I can no longer enjoy this music on the modern guitar (excepting Bream who can play anything on guitar and make it sound good) having heard it on the 5 course baroque guitar with the appropriate technique - it just sounds better. All those campanelas effects with the octave 5th course, rasgueados and so on.

    As far as the 19th century rep, and Villa Lobos goes, that's obviously great on classical guitar. But the repertoire - excepting maybe Villa Lobos - is obviously very lightweight compared to the core instruments of the classical tradition, it's a problem... It's not the stuff that I seek out to listen to, but I enjoy it if it's on the radio. Basically, to be a classical guitarist, you have to love that stuff enough to dedicate your life to it...

    In terms of later 20th century rep - well you have the Latin American stuff, and composers like Takemitsu who have an unusual sympathy with the instrument, but truth be told, it's bloody hard to write for and that thins the pool of composers who are up for the challenge especially those who are not themselves guitarists. We all know that Britten found it a real struggle - said 'never again.' And here was a man content to sit down and study a harp manual in order to write a Ceremony of Carols. The piano and bowed strings remain the centre of classical music, and it's not likely to change...

    People get quite worthy about classical guitar, and there's a sense that it's 'doing it properly' but in reality really it's a small musical town, just like jazz guitar. Some people, such as yourself really love it, and that's cool. I don't.

    The long and the short of it is that I am not really a guitar buff. If there's some great guitar playing on a thing, cool, but if not, I'm more that happy to listen to music with no guitar.

    But that's not to minimise the technical difficulty or achievement of making that stuff sing on the guitar. I respect the work that goes into it...
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-26-2018 at 10:55 AM.

  16. #65

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    But I'm always happy to be proved wrong :-)

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    But I'm always happy to be proved wrong :-)
    At my conservatiore the Violin teacher held in highest regard was an American woman called Gerri Gibson.

    I played her a Bach Suite one day in a performance class, it was not a particularly good performance.

    She said 'When you hear the suites played on the guitar you wonder why you bother on the violin'.

    It is good to be envious of the strength of other instruments. The piano terrifies me as so much is possible or even easy that is beyond my reach on guitar.

    D.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel
    At my conservatiore the Violin teacher held in highest regard was an American woman called Gerri Gibson.

    I played her a Bach Suite one day in a performance class, it was not a particularly good performance.

    She said 'When you hear the suites played on the guitar you wonder why you bother on the violin'.

    It is good to be envious of the strength of other instruments. The piano terrifies me as so much is possible or even easy that is beyond my reach on guitar.

    D.
    Ha! Maybe.

    The intonation must be a nightmare...

  19. #68

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    christian, you've done an admirable job of proving yourself wrong. saved me the trouble. you should get out more.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    christian, you've done an admirable job of proving yourself wrong. saved me the trouble. you should get out more.
    How have I been proven wrong in my subjective opinion? How have you been proven right in yours? I still think you have made too grand a claim...

    As much as one might admire particular artists in the classical guitar world, guitar remains a footnote in the repertoire... An often beautiful footnote.

    Bach is not really for the guitar. Unfortunately for us. Some pieces can be made to work on it. Great talents can make them sound great. But there's really only a handful of pieces. And usually in the wrong keys.

    It's just the way it is. The composer's intention is somewhat sacrificed for the privelage of playing Bach's music (of course modern pianists do this all the time, as well, to be fair.)

    Other factors come into play. But I do honestly prefer the sound of the lute, say over the guitar for this music. And the cello is pretty hard to beat. Nasty scratchy out of tune violins, sure... But hang on:



    Doesn't mean I think someone should not play Bach on the guitar... But think about what you have said above. Segovia or Bream does not sound *better* than Heifetz or Cassals.

  21. #70

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    Find me a guitar performance of Bach better than that Vengerov and I'll eat my words :-)

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Find me a guitar performance of Bach better than that Vengerov and I'll eat my words :-)
    There is no competition when it comes to preference, best to enjoy and share.



    I'll always have a soft spot for the performance above. Totally non PC and soulful to the point of near indulgence, I LOVE it. First magic moment comes at the 1 min mark (you won't hear it if you don't listen from the start though.). What he does at 3.32 still haunts my dreams.

    I like Nicholas Galoses on Naxos, very few lapses from clarity (one big one in the Gm Presto but boy there are a lot of notes on that recording) , mind you Colin Cooper claimed it was out of tune in the in his review...

    I've never heard anyone play the Chaconne in a way that suggest to me they might be completely happy with their performance. Most lose me, Edin Karamazov proves on his (composite) recording of that piece that a compelling narrative may be made with not so much in the way of virtuoso technique.


    Hilary Hahn nails the Gm Presto...

    You sir are of course entitled to your preference, there is no competition really.

    D.

  23. #72

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    Not sure if you read my post quite right... I was expecting a mega guitar performance and got cello lol.

    Find me a guitar performance of Bach better than that Vengerov and I'll eat my words :-)
    A good performance of the cello suites is pretty mega...

    I'm not saying Vengerov is even the best violin performance (I do think it's pretty badass) - I'm saying that a high level performance of the piece on the violin has a completely different quality to the same piece on the guitar, and I have to say, I feel it has greater depth emotionally. And I passionately feel, with absolutely no way of backing this up intellectually, this is intended by the composer.

    I DO think Bach should be soulful. But I think all music should be soulful.

  24. #73

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    I can enjoy listening to Bach on just about anything.


  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I can enjoy listening to Bach on just about anything.

    Chris Thile is a witch

  26. #75

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    A certain forum member has also been known to get up to this kind of thing.