Bach For Guitar

[Freel]

Sure back to Bach.

I don't know about arranging but I quite like working with the Jerry Willard book of Lute Suites. There are a few ill advised chords and he tends to organise his fingerings so that the most difficult shift comes at a phrase end with a new chord and that kind of irks me. Musically my problem is that he often breaks a bass line for a shift to a higher octave on the down beat. This is most unsatisfactory to my ear as it leaves tensions unresolved in the bass register.

I also love reading through the Violin Sonatas and Partitas straight from the violin score. The Peters edition I have is really clear and well beamed and there is the wonderful facsimile of Bach's superb and intention laden hand written part at the start of each Sonata which really helps to show how he conceptualised his melodic flow.

For Jazzers it is always good to compare bar by bar the Doubles with the dance movements which precede them. The former are pretty strict chord by chord melodic elaboration of the latter. I wonder if this is one of the ways in which Bach intended these pieces to be for study. It certainly gives would be composers and improvisers plenty of food for thought.



D.

[christianm77]

Really the guitar can't hold a candle can it?

[christianm77]

I always liked this piece:

First heard it here:

Stretchy ole thing on guitar. I remember enjoying the overlap scale thing (Capanelas? sp?) - I taught that to an electric guitarist the other day actually, playing scales maximising over-ring... I think Frisell does this?

Also, look at this thing:

[Tal_175]

Wait, he is hybrid picking this piece. I've never seen a classical piece performed this way before.
Hybrid picking reduces your most dexterous 2 fingers into 1, effectively giving up your index finger in fingerstyle playing. It works well for chord melody because you very often alternate chords and single lines. But I would think it would be quite detrimental in classical arrangements.
I mean typically thumb is like pianists left hand and the other three are the more demanding right hand (in classical guitar). So you do need your index finger to help out the treble side most of the time.
Does this work well here because Bach counterpoint demands just as much work for the bass line as the melody line?

[sully75]

Wait, he is hybrid picking this piece. I've never seen a classical piece performed this way.
Hybrid picking reduces your most dexterous 2 fingers into 1, effectively giving up your index finger in fingerstyle playing. It works well for chord melody because you very often alternate chords and single lines. But I would think it would be quite detrimental in classical arrangements.
I mean typically thumb is like pianists right hand and the other three are the more demanding right hand (in classical guitar). So you do need your index finger to help out the treble side most of the time.
Does this work well here because Bach counterpoint demands just as much work for the bass line as the melody line?

I think the point is noy playing Bach for performance sake but as a means to elevate the music you actually play. He plays contrapuntal jazz. He plays with hybrid techinique. So it makes sense to work on other music with that technique because it informs the music he plays as his bread and butter.

Also it sounds pretty good.

I just bought his dvd on jazz guitar counterpoint. It’s pretty excellent. Part of it deals with playing Bach in this manner.

You should check out his playing Stella on YouTube. He practices what he preaches.

There’s also a cool video of him talking about the pedals he uses on reverb.com. It’s pretty interesting.

[christianm77]

Wait, he is hybrid picking this piece. I've never seen a classical piece performed this way.
Hybrid picking reduces your most dexterous 2 fingers into 1, effectively giving up your index finger in fingerstyle playing. It works well for chord melody because you very often alternate chords and single lines. But I would think it would be quite detrimental in classical arrangements.
I mean typically thumb is like pianists right hand and the other three are the more demanding right hand (in classical guitar). So you do need your index finger to help out the treble side most of the time.
Does this work well here because Bach counterpoint demands just as much work for the bass line as the melody line?

I think Gilad is effectively using the Bach as an etude for his hybrid picking technique which he uses to play two part counterpoint ideas in his jazz playing.

[Tal_175]

I think the point is noy playing Bach for performance sake but as a means to elevate the music you actually play.

I think Gilad is effectively using the Bach as an etude for his hybrid picking technique which he uses to play two part counterpoint ideas in his jazz playing.

I see. Makes sense. It sounds pretty good in it's own right even just as a classical performance.

[alltunes]

Bach Flatpicked

[Jonah]

I think the point is noy playing Bach for performance sake but as a means to elevate the music you actually play. He plays contrapuntal jazz. He plays with hybrid techinique. So it makes sense to work on other music with that technique because it informs the music he plays as his bread and butter.

he uses Bach as technical study ib clean contrapunctal voice leading (which I personally do not like because he does not play the piece actually... just voices and I cannot abstract it from the musical contents - but it's up to him)

[whitebeard]

Philip Hii has published at least a few of his transcriptions on GSP, among them the chorale preludes BWV 639 and 659. If you have the classical chops to play them (I don't) it's exquisite stuff.

The cello suites are pretty playable with a pick, 1-3 work transposed up a fifth, 4 (Eb) works great in G, 6 can be done with the sixth string dropped to D. Apparently I never did no. 5, or else I mis-filed it somewhere. Anyway other than transposing I didn't do anything, no revoicing or added bass parts, I didn't and still don't see the point. They're fully realized as written.

As others have noted the motherlode for pick style is the solo violin sonatas / partitas -- I can't imagine playing the chaconne or the G minor fugue with a pick but there's so much in there that's playable right off the page.

speaking of chorales, Graham Anthony Devine has also recorded the BWV 639 and 659 preludes on an all-Bach Naxos disc, along with an amazing transcription of the chorale prelude BWV 147 (Jesu etc). I've never much liked the piece (I have the David Dolata arrangement, which is not difficult to play, but, well, boring) but the GAD arrangement is gorgeous. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be published.

[Jonah]

Forget guitar

[grahambop]

I like the lute, but I generally enjoy Bach more on the guitar, I just like the sound a bit more I think. (I like Weiss on the lute though). Having said that, I have got 3 CDs of Nigel North playing Bach on the lute (Linn Records), they are very good.

I was looking for a long time for a good modern guitar recording of the ‘lute suites’ and I eventually chose the recording by Eduardo Fernandez. It’s the later OEHMS one he did in 2000, not the older one on Decca.

[Jonah]

On lute with Bach no-one as good as Hopkinson Smith for me (as in general on lute).

I also like the record of Evangelina Mascardi.

I did not like Nigel North's CD, but I really liked this concert I put here.
I do not know why, there is a thing about Nigel's playing that always makes me feel awkward - too straight ahead time-feel maybe - too academic.
As if he elaborated some concepriopn and now he brings it to realization
But sometimes he overcomes it an dthen it becomes great.

Hoppy is much more flexible and vivid - especially his latest records (check his 'Mad Dog' CD with English music- it is exceptional, to me it's best lute recrods up to date).

[Jonah]

I was looking for a long time for a good modern guitar recording of the ‘lute suites’ and I eventually chose the recording by Eduardo Fernandez. It’s the later OEHMS one he did in 2000, not the older one on Decca.

TBH I find this record terrible (not becasue of guitar).
it sounds like a stylized neo-baroque soundtrack.

Do not take it personally please.

[christianm77]

There’s not really much of a point to performing Bach on the guitar tbh.

The Bach repertoire played by guitarists sounds so much better on other instruments.

And the lute totally dominates the guitar here

[ronjazz]

There’s not really much of a point to performing Bach on the guitar tbh.

The Bach repertoire played by guitarists sounds so much better on other instruments.

And the lute totally dominates the guitar here

That's funny.

[grahambop]

There’s not really much of a point to performing Bach on the guitar tbh.

The Bach repertoire played by guitarists sounds so much better on other instruments.

And the lute totally dominates the guitar here

Well I don’t agree with that, I like hearing Bach on both instruments, they bring different things to it. But I listen to it on the guitar more than the lute, overall that’s my preference for Bach at least.

I don’t enjoy some of the violin pieces that much on the violin, those scratchy chords annoy me. I have the Itzak Perlman complete recordings, and I think I’ve only played it a couple of times. Yet the guitar recordings I own I have played loads of times. Even the cello suites don’t always knock me out totally on the cello.

But ‘chacun a son gout’, probably not much point in discussing this anyway, everyone feels differently.

[christianm77]

They’re cool to play and you can learn a lot from them, but I wouldn’t seek out a guitar recording or concert of Bach. Maybe as an item in a programme of other stuff, it’s cool.

Unless it’s Julian Bream of course.

The classical guitar really has the repertoire problem. But then I suppose if you are into that sort of thing that’s part of the fun. It’s an unusual repertoire and a small one.

[Jonah]

Unless it’s Julian Bream of course.

Segovian Chaconne is better than many violine's performance... as my friend violinist said: when Segovia plays it you understand why it is a chaconne)


As for guitar - it is repertoire problem that guitar always had. since it became 'classical' There is nohing to play...

[christianm77]

Post Segovian classical guitar has this sort of feeling of respectability but really it’s a young instrument, about the same age as plectrum guitar.

[christianm77]

Segovian Chaconne is better than many violine's performance... as my friend violinist said: when Segovia plays it you understand why it is a chaconne)


As for guitar - it is repertoire problem that guitar always had. since it became 'classical' There is nohing to play...

Oh yeah Segovia too. Completely anachronistic in a brilliant way....

[DS71]

Any must have books/collections of Bach for guitar? I've enjoyed playing his music quite a bit over the years.

[Thelonious1]

IMSLP.org

[grahambop]

Any must have books/collections of Bach for guitar? I've enjoyed playing his music quite a bit over the years.

Have a look back through the thread - several early posts already covered this.

[RolandLeeGuitar]

I love reading Bach's music too. If you're into reading his chorales maybe the Bach Sonatas/Partitas
esp. Manuel Barrueco's editions. I'm reading Manuel Barrueco's version of the Fugue BWV 1003