The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Alright, I'm practicing the Bach sonata and I'm just wondering, the piece is clearly in G minor, even stated in it's name, why is the key signature in the sheet music in D minor, wouldn't it make more sense to add the Eb to the signature to get rid of all the sharps? Is it a simple error or is there a reason for this? It's not that big of a deal really, but I thought I'd ask

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  3. #2

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    I have the Shirmers Violin edition and the first sonata is in G minor. This is not the only place I'v e seen it posted with one flat. I don't why only one flat but it's definately in G minor

  4. #3

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    It says it's in B minor, name wise. And the music shows F Maj/ D Min you said.
    So... I dunno. :/

  5. #4

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    perhaps it suggests that the piece is in the Dorian mode ?

  6. #5

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    I though that too but the cadences are really V-i, D7 to Gmi. Also calling the key by the mode in western music didn't really come into play in Bach's time. There's a thread on another forum (where I lurk) that deals with this very issue.

    Again, the shirmers violin edition shows two flats and the Sonata is named Sonata in Gmi. The oly other place I saw this was on a free chart available from the Classical Guitar School of Iceland. Here's the whole thing w/o tab

  7. #6

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    hey i cant download the pdf file

  8. #7

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    The key signature not matching the key is evidently common, especially in Baroque minor key compositions. The purpose of the key signature is to reduce the number of accidentals that appear in the music, not necessarily to indicate the key.

    In Bach's time a piece in G Minor might be better notated with a key signature of one flat if it used more E natural than E-flat notes, as it would if it made more use of the so-called ascending melodic minor scale or the very common V of V chord.

    This page has a good summary of the key signature topic:
    The Classical Key signature Dictonary Page on Classic Cat

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by funnyval
    The key signature not matching the key is evidently common, especially in Baroque minor key compositions. The purpose of the key signature is to reduce the number of accidentals that appear in the music, not necessarily to indicate the key.

    In Bach's time a piece in G Minor might be better notated with a key signature of one flat if it used more E natural than E-flat notes, as it would if it made more use of the so-called ascending melodic minor scale or the very common V of V chord.

    This page has a good summary of the key signature topic:
    The Classical Key signature Dictonary Page on Classic Cat
    Ahh of course, the ascending melodic minor! I should've realized this, thanks for the very thorough answer, you know your stuff!

  10. #9

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    Tht sound like a good enough explanation to me. Thanks.

  11. #10

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    You're welcome, guys. Great question, a22. It shows that even topics that at first glance do not seem to be that really big of a deal can get complex quickly and often have a lot of history behind them.

  12. #11

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    I was indeed hoping to learn something new and I did, thanks to you!

  13. #12
    Stringbean Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by funnyval
    dit made more use of the so-called ascending melodic minor scale or the very common V of V chord.
    What's is this V of V chord?
    Thanks

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringbean
    What's is this V of V chord?
    Thanks
    Now this I can hopefully answer, I hope you're familiar with the way chords are called with the roman numerals, the first chord of a key is the tonal center I and ii as the two chord etc. Now a common way to incorporate sounds from outside a certain key is to borrow chords from another key in a smooth fashion, and this is where we finally get to the V of V concept, it simply means that you count five notes of the scale up from the V of a key as if the V was actually the I so in C major the V of V would be the V of a G: a D dominant chord, basically borrowed from the key of G major

  15. #14
    Stringbean Guest
    can you give an example of it being used in a tune?

  16. #15

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    There is a good list of V of V tunes at 47, including Cherokee, Exactly Like You, Alexander's Ragtime Band, Danny Boy, etc.

    Also compare V of V functionality to II7 - 46.

    Often there is an "interpolated IIm7" between the V of V and the V. "A Train" is a great example (C D7 Dm7 G7 C).

    This chord has been so common since the time of Bach, Mozart, Handel, Haydn, etc. that some theorists don't even consider it an altered or borrowed chord, just a natural function of the key. Look for how it is used in a minor key in the Bach Sonata that started this thread (look for C# notes in Gm).
    Last edited by funnyval; 03-15-2009 at 05:38 PM. Reason: Fixed spelling of Papa Haydn's name.

  17. #16
    Stringbean Guest
    Thanks, very nice Ralph Pat Jazz Web Page there. Those lists are brilliant.

    I think I'm catching on to the V of V concept.

    • If the II7 chord leads to the V chord, it's called a "borrowed" V of V chord.

    • IF the II7 leads back to I chord, it's called a "substitute" chord.

    I pretty sure I've heard some V of V borrowing in a a few Beatles tunes.

    Thanks again.
    Last edited by Stringbean; 03-15-2009 at 01:15 PM.

  18. #17

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    Yeah, yeah, yeah! The Beatles loved V of V and II7. You can hear the brightness of V of V in "Good Day Sunshine" (it also has a V-of V-of-V).

    The early Beatles sounded so fresh because of their innovative use of chord progressions. One of the most striking is the use of V of V moving deceptively to IV, for example in "Eight Days A Week" and "She Loves You".

    After V of V moves to IV in "Day Tripper" it goes on some harmonic twists for a couple of measures before finally getting to V.

    There are many other Beatles examples of this.

  19. #18

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    The edition I read from also has it in one flat. Also if it has not been mentioned this is the first half and is not the end - there is a second half.

    Anyone interested in this, all 6 of these solo violin pieces are awesome for learning the neck. After doing this in one position move it to another etc. (extending down for the lower notes, for example, when doing it in V, extending up when doing it in extended II) and then after doing a few it is easier to see what the best fingerings are. It's all such great music too.

    Also I'm sure that this was tabbed out this way for some reason but there is definitely a more efficient way to play parts of this - if I have time this week I'll record this first half and put it up on youtube (cause I am too lazy to write it all out with fingerings/positions!), but it is definitely good to know all the possibilities, so learning it this way is not the end of the world.

  20. #19

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    I went searching for the original sheet music, and I found the whole set of violin sonatas at this site (but don't know which publisher edition this was originally from):

    Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin, BWV 1001-1006 (Bach, Johann Sebastian - IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library: Free Public Domain Sheet Music)

    There is a second half of this piece there, not quite as easy to read, but it brings the sound back to resolve on Gm, where the first part of the transcription winds up on a D7, just begging to go on...
    Last edited by MackStrat71; 03-16-2009 at 08:28 AM.

  21. #20

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    you can buy this whole thing in book form for about 8 bucks at most sheet music stores.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by funnyval
    One of the most striking is the use of V of V moving deceptively to IV, for example in "Eight Days A Week" and "She Loves You".

    After V of V moves to IV in "Day Tripper" it goes on some harmonic twists for a couple of measures before finally getting to V.

    There are many other Beatles examples of this.
    I don't think there is any five to four change in eight days a week, what are the lyrics at that point?

  23. #22

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    That would be my guess, that this is just the first part and it's resolving to the V key D, then it'll move back to Gm later in the piece. Makes more sense to me that way.

    MW

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by markf
    I don't think there is any five to four change in eight days a week, what are the lyrics at that point?
    Mark, you misread my post. I said V of V moving to IV.

    (D) Ooo I need your
    (E) love babe,
    (G) guess you know it's
    (D) true.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by funnyval
    Mark, you misread my post. I said V of V moving to IV.

    (D) Ooo I need your
    (E) love babe,
    (G) guess you know it's
    (D) true.

    Yes, You're right, I apologise.

    I wonder, do you think, for rock music, the Beatles introduced that progression? and those sounds?

    Before that, I think it was mostly 1, 4, 5, with a 6 chord sometimes. Rockabilly, and so on.

    Then the progression you have here, in various versions, THE rock progression, think THE WHO, and many many bands. (

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by markf
    I wonder, do you think, for rock music, the Beatles introduced that progression?
    I wish I was qualified to answer that question. I would not be surprised though if it did turn out that the Beatles originated the V of V to IV for rock and maybe even popular music in general.

    As far as I can tell from reviewing Alan W. Pollack's excellent Notes On ... Series, "She Loves You", released in the UK as a single on August 23, 1963 was the first appearance in a Beatles song of V of V to IV (along with other surprises like not starting on I as well as V of V to iv, and of course the trademark added 6th vocal harmony on the final "yeah" in the "yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah" parts).

    If anyone knows of any earlier example, I'd love to hear about it.