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  1. #1

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    They probably don't exist, but I'm curious if there are any lead sheets for classical music? In particular, I'd like to be able to look at late Romantic (operatic) composers like R. Strauss and see what they were up to without having to go to the trouble of looking at huge scores.
    Last edited by jster; 07-19-2013 at 04:23 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    At one time there was a fakebook of classical melodies. Also probably can get a score reduction that would be easier to analyze.

  4. #3
    I'm not interested in Mozart melodies. I'm intrested in Strauss because he was such a stud and probably used all manner of chord extensions. I looked at one score and I was blown away by how many key changes there were. But for a single tune it is the difference between one hour and eight hours. At least for a dilettante like myself.
    Last edited by jster; 07-19-2013 at 05:14 PM.

  5. #4

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    A lot of classical sheet music is covered by publishing houses and it's not out there so much as downloads. I don't know about where you are but almost every library in my area has extensive music scores in their stacks. More so if there's a music school in your area.
    What did you have in mind? Strauss in melody and chord symbols? Haven't seen anything like that.
    Wagnerian harmony is pretty heavy. You may have to get fluent with a grand staff, but once you get the hang of it, that opens a lot of doors.
    David
    Last edited by TH; 07-19-2013 at 04:53 PM.

  6. #5
    Yeah, I didn't think it really existed. I can access scores. Maybe something scholarly? I have JSTOR. It would seem that any serious analysis, say of the Trio linked above, would have to include much of the tune along the way.

    Every time I want to do something with classical music, I always come up against this time issue. Go dig up the score. Print it out. Oh, it doesn't fit on the page. Oh, it's 14 pages. Oh shit, I need more ink for the printer. Now start figuring out the harmony. Oh, what the hell clef is that? Yada yada. I even had one classical musician tell me that digging up scores was part of the process. What process exactly was never specified! I'm interested in an hour of analysis, not a day of drudgery.
    Last edited by jster; 07-19-2013 at 05:06 PM.

  7. #6

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    Last edited by targuit; 07-19-2013 at 06:22 PM.

  8. #7

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    can't build a house until you dig the foundation...

  9. #8

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    Don't know about Strauss, but one of my favorite Ravel pieces, Pavane Pour Un' Enfante Defunte, is available in sheet music for classical guitar - absolutely beautiful performance piece. Julian Bream has recorded it as a solo and also in a duet with John Williams. Fabulous music.

    There are some versions of Chopin's music for classical guitar. Or you could create a transcription of your own. Segovia played versions of Pictures At An Exhibition, another fine collection. Or Vivaldi's Quattro Stagione (Four Seasons).

  10. #9

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    lost of this kind of thing on the web (google harmonic analysis richard strauss)

    http://www.wseas.us/e-library/confer...TA/AMTA-17.pdf

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz
    can't build a house until you dig the foundation...
    What about a dog house? :P

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz
    lost of this kind of thing on the web (google harmonic analysis richard strauss)

    http://www.wseas.us/e-library/confer...TA/AMTA-17.pdf
    Thanks. I have JSTOR, so I can probably see a lot of things. Really what I just want to see is what the chords and melody would look like. How many extensions? And what notes are the singers landing on. How different would it look from a jazz tune? Actually, it would be interesting even to see somebody like Brahms.

  13. #12

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    I have gotten into this lately...one hour for one measure can be worth it, trust me. And the more you do it, the faster it gets. My approach has been to just take what I can get from a small amount of material, rather than trying to absorb a whole piece.

  14. #13
    Hal Leonard has a fake book. Perfect for my needs right now.

    The Real Little Classical Fake Book: Hal Leonard Corp.: 9780793516681: Amazon.com: Books

    Looking through it, I see a lot of slash chords, 5ths, 3rds, and 2nds in the bass. I haven't seen a half-diminished chord yet. Nor any 9, 11, or 13 chords!

    Maybe they have simplified some things.

    I'll have to look at the melodies and see what is going on! I'll report back in a day or two.

    UPDATE: Found a half-diminished in Debussy.

    Anybody looking for site reading material should buy this thing.
    Last edited by jster; 07-19-2013 at 10:18 PM.

  15. #14

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    Ugh, this defeats the purpose!!

  16. #15

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    We can look at this stuff as melody over harmony - sometimes - but it's way more fun to actually see the individual lines happening, and the voicings used. I've gotten so much out of this lately. In a string quartet, which one is the melody, ya know?

  17. #16
    I believe you Jake. But I am just interested in the harmonic substance rather than voice leading at the moment.

  18. #17

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    I perused the book through some of the several Bach entries. Not bad for what is is - a lead sheet with chords and melody. And I did find a few diminished chords - Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring, for example. These books are generally quite accurate as to melodies and chords though obviously reductionist in terms of the score.

    I have the Real Little Jazz Fake Book which I very much like and have used for years.

  19. #18

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    check out Hal Leonard Play Along vol 63 Classical Jazz

  20. #19

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    Found Cage's 4'33 for jazz guitar. I'm not sure it's accurate though. I think when you make it swing, it loses something. Plus the 32 bar AABA interpretation of it is just weird.
    I tried playing it at a jazz brunch gig. Cost me my job. Philistines.
    David

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Found Cage's 4'33 for jazz guitar. I'm not sure it's accurate though. I think when you make it swing, it loses something. Plus the 32 bar AABA interpretation of it is just weird.
    I tried playing it at a jazz brunch gig. Cost me my job. Philistines.
    David
    Typical jazz musician, unfairly blaming the audience. But 4'33 is all about ambient sounds. A larger venue probably works better than Suzie's Framingham Cafe. So maybe this is the exception that proves the rule. :P

  22. #21

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    Larger venue eh? I performed it busking at Penn Station. Great ambient contribution, quite a lively performance by all involved, but not a shingle penny in the case. Do you think it was the capo?
    David

  23. #22
    OK, I started to work on this Strauss tune:



    There are 42 bars, seven lines of six. Here is the beginning of my analysis. Bar numbers are for the line, not the tune. It is in 3/4 and a dot (.) just indicates a beat where the chord doesn't change. I put question marks where I don't know yet what the Roman numeral analysis would be. I used figured bass notation for the inversions. Probably some errors, but I have to go see a forum member play tonight, so I can't work on it any more right now. Any help with the question marks would be appreciated. FIrst sung note is on the second beat of the first bar at 0:54. The highest note is on the second beat of the Ddim7 chord at 1:50


    |Db . Gb/Db|Db |Gb/Db Db Ebm/Gb|Db/Ab . Ab |Gbadd9 . Gb |Db/F . Db|

    |I . IV[64] |I |IV[64] I ii[6] |I[64] . V |IVadd9 . IV |I[6] . I|


    |Bbm7/Eb Ebm Gbmaj7|Ab . Ab+|F7/A |Bbm |Ab7/C . Ab7|Dbdim7 . Db|

    |vi7? ii VImaj7 |V . V+ |V[6]/vi|vi |V7[6] . V7 |i°7 . I |

    Bar 1: What is the figured bass notation for a 7th chord with a 4th in the bass? Or how would one notate that with Roman numerals? Why would he put the fourth in the bass here?

    |Ddim7 |Bb/Eb Ebm Gbm|Db/Ab . A7|Ab . Ab+|F7/A . F7|Gb/Bb |

    |#i°7 |V?/ii ii iv |I[64] . iv |V . V+ |III7[65] . III7[65] |IV[6] |

    Bar 2: I need some notation for this chord. It seems like a secondary dominant. But why have the fourth in the bass? Is it that it is better to have the Eb in the bass since we are coming from the D diminished chord?

    Bar 2: Why does he insert this iv chord? I guess it comes from parallel minor. But why here? What is it's function?

    Bar 5: What is the function of this III7 chord? And where does it come from?


    |Abadd9/C . Ab7|Dbdim7 . Db|Ddim7 |Ebm . Gbm|Db/Ab A7 . |Db/Ab . Ab7|

    |Vadd9[65] . V7 |i°7 . I |#i°7 |ii . iv |I[64] V7 . |I[64] . V7|

    Bar 4: Why does he insert this iv chord? I guess it comes from parallel minor. But why here? What is it's function?


    |Db |Db7 |Gb6/Db |Db7 |Gbmaj7 |Eb7/G . Eb7|

    |I |V7/IV |IV6[64] |V7/IV|IVmaj7 |II7[65] . IIV |

    Bar 6: What is the function of this II7 chord? And if it comes from modal interchange, which mode?


    |Db/Ab |Db/Ab Gb/Ab Db/Ab|Ab7 Gb/Ab Ab7|Db |Ebm/Db |Db7 |

    |I[64] |I[64] IV? I[64] |V7 IV? V7 |I |ii[42] |V7/VI |

    Bar 2: What is the figured bass notation for a major triad with a 2nd in the bass? Or how would you notate it with Roman numerals?

    Bar 3: Same question again.


    |Gbmaj7 |Eb7/G . Eb7|Db |Db Ebm/Ab Db/Ab|Ab7 Gb/Ab Ab7|Db |

    |IVmaj7 |II7[65] . Eb7 |I |I ii? I[64] | V7 IV? V7 |I |

    Bar 2: Again what is the function and origin of a II7 chord?

    Bar 4: Again, how should we notate the fourth in the bass with Roman numerals?

    Bar 5: Again, how should we notate the second in the bass?

    UPDATE: QUESTIONS CLARIFIED!
    Last edited by jster; 07-22-2013 at 03:01 PM.

  24. #23
    OK, I was able to clean up things a bit and clarify my questions. You can see the specific questions above. But here I'll repeat them a bit more generally:

    1) How do we notate slash chords with Roman numerals? I was using figured bass notation, but ran into trouble with 4ths and 2nds which aren't really in the chord.

    2) It seems that secondary dominants and tritone subs are the only chords whose function is really reflected in Roman numeral analysis. Is that correct?

    3) What is the function of a II7 chord in a major key? Above we see: |Gbmaj7 |Eb7/G . Eb7|Db/Ab|

    4) What is the function of this iv chord: |Ddim7 |Ebm . Gbm|Db/Ab A7 . |?

    5) What is the function of a III7 chord going to IV? And where does it come from?

    N.B., we are in Db major.

    I'm sorry I don't think I can post the melody beyond the video. Perhaps that is necessary for a better analysis?

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by jster; 07-22-2013 at 03:02 PM.

  25. #24

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    Thanks! I'm gonna work on this

  26. #25
    Where's the love people? Nobody can tell what a II7 chord is for?

  27. #26

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    you are trying to shoehorn 20th c music into common practice analysis. not going to give very satisfactory results. music from wagner on bent those practices beyond recognition.

    if you really want to "understand" this music you will need to acquire the tools ("when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail."). this is graduate school level analysis. if you are near a university, try to get some time with the theory professor, maybe you can arrange private instruction, or (s)he can point you to useful books.

  28. #27

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  29. #28
    Thanks Randall. But I thought Wagner and Strauss were still within tonal music. A lot of the tune makes perfect sense.

  30. #29

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  31. #30

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    maybe here...

    http://imslp.org/wik..

    I will have to go and look myself...

    But if you just google "classical guitar music" you should find some...if not much...

    time on the instrument...

  32. #31

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    I mentioned this website on a different thread. Classical Clef has nearly 5,000 tunes for free download. Ranging from Baroque to modern. 90% is classical, but some jazz and pop. Most is standard notation plus tab. I have looked at a lot of websites, and I have arranged a lot of my own stuff from classical piano scores, but this site is a treasure trove.

    www.classclef.com

    Jon

  33. #32
    Unfortunately no R. Strauss on that site. I'm mostly interested in him because I'm told that he took functional harmony the furthest. Where did the guys who were writing standards get those changes from? Standards seem more complex than what you find in say Verdi. But less complex than what you find in Strauss. Whenever there is some really difficult tune that comes up there always seems to be somebody saying it ain't modal, all the changes are standard Late Romantic fare. But I don't know who counts as Late Romantic besides Strauss and I guess Wagner. I don't think they mean Ravel and Debussy.
    Last edited by jster; 10-22-2013 at 06:53 PM.

  34. #33
    http://www.amazon.com/Classical-Fake-Second-Edition-Books/dp/0793513294

    I own this book and very much enjoy it.
    Conservatory trained classical musicians might be unimpressed, but we high school band drop outs love it.

  35. #34

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