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  1. #1

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    What exactly are Segovia Scales ? I heard Matt W. Talking about adam rogers who practiced a lot thoses scales and make his students check a lot of that stuff.

    Is it a manner of practicing scales ? i saw that book last time (segovia - scales for classic guitar) is it what its all about ?

    Thanks !
    Marc

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Yep, the term "segovia scales" is used to describe the fingerings he used for his book. The book goes for under 10$ and is well worth the bread.

    MW
    Matt Warnock Guitar
    FREE 84-Page Jazz Guitar eBook

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by m78w View Post
    Yep, the term "segovia scales" is used to describe the fingerings he used for his book. The book goes for under 10$ and is well worth the bread.

    MW
    Ok cool, does practicing those is really good time investment ?

  5. #4

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    That depends. As far as scales go I like the fingerings because they shift across the neck up 2 to 3 octaves. So you will get out of playing "position" scales as they force you to shift in places you probably haven't thought of.

    MW
    Matt Warnock Guitar
    FREE 84-Page Jazz Guitar eBook

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by m78w View Post
    That depends. As far as scales go I like the fingerings because they shift across the neck up 2 to 3 octaves. So you will get out of playing "position" scales as they force you to shift in places you probably haven't thought of.

    MW
    ok thanks, definitly gonna give it a try.

  7. #6

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    Here are some scales that I posted. I like these since they present alternate ways to play the notes.

    The arpeggio study goes with it

  8. #7

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    Thanks John, But those you posted looks like the "basics" positions i have learned when i was younger. The segovia scales kind of mix all of those in one.

    But thanks for your help !

  9. #8

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    I found this but whats up with the c#?

    http://chordmelody.org/pdf/Segovia%2...-Amin_0001.pdf

  10. #9

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    the tab is wrong, it's a B major scale for the first octave, then it looks like it comes back into C.

    MW
    Matt Warnock Guitar
    FREE 84-Page Jazz Guitar eBook

  11. #10

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    Scratch that, the tab is wrong for both the major and the minor scales in this example.

    MW
    Matt Warnock Guitar
    FREE 84-Page Jazz Guitar eBook

  12. #11

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    hm
    what's the matter about "Segovia scales"?
    Sorry, I don't understand.
    You want to play like "Segovia"?
    major an minor scales?
    Do you want to play Tuba or anything else?
    Sorry, I don't understand your question.
    But I am tyrolean, but I love flamenco.
    Can you help me play Bossa Nova, without asking for scales?
    I have a lot of guitars, and nobody helps me to destroy them...

    all the best

    Hubert

  13. #12

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    hm,

    U're talking about "fingering"?
    Tell me what this is meant for.
    Or maybe it's trying to somewhat calling expression
    or pardon music? - hm what the hell are you asking for?

    peg thousand pardons

    it's only hubert

  14. #13

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    Its ok, my question has been answered.

  15. #14

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    hubert54,your posts make no sense!but they are quite funny!no offence!
    im finally starting to get it

  16. #15

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  17. #16

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    It's surreal thing.....



  18. #17

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    hey oleo

    you just got it! Shouldn't music make fun too?
    without - hm - too much paranoid theory?
    Someone told me something about a "surreal" thing...
    a fact might be, why my "posts" are not intended to make sense,
    I instead want to learn something about playing guitar...

    and I appreciate anything that comes that way

    stay tuned

    hubert

  19. #18

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    The theory is innocent. The notes are blameless. 'I can't stand people that play F. And when they play it fast, slow, straight, bent, swingy,
    too seriously, with joy, with meaning, without meaning, it drives me nuts!!'


    Mike
    Last edited by mike walker; 12-02-2008 at 01:16 PM.

  20. #19

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    hm,
    can you explain to me ( a dumb tyrolean ), what you mean?
    I can't stand the so called "Tyrolean folk music" or whatever
    aber der Terminus "Segovia Scales" ging mir einfach auf die Nerven...
    too many people seem to talk about music...
    maybe it's lack of "non teaching, indoctrinating..

    good luck

    hubert

  21. #20

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    jetzt muß ich Dir nochmals lästig fallen

    interessant: it drives me nuts
    ich ahne es zwar, aber wirklich verstehe ich es nicht

    frei nach Victor Frankl : der Sinn des Lebens ist der "Unsinn"

    what kind of instrument u're playing?

    best regards or something else

    hubert

  22. #21

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    Returning to the original post re: Segovia...When I played classical guitar I used a Segovia exercise perhaps for jazz players like this: 1, 2, 3, 4 fingers (lft hnd) top E, 4 frets, then 1, 2 fingers to B and G strings, fret 1 and 2. Play 4 beats alternating 1 and 2 fingers on B and G strings for four beats. Do the same alternating finger pattern (1, 2) with all the strings in any combination of strings. Then alternate with different finger combinations. So you could play using finger 1 and 2 between the B and G string (easy) or 3 and 4 finger between E (top) and A string (hard). I found it helped with shaping chords in particular.

  23. #22

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    The Segovia scales become a great daily warmup once they are internalized.

  24. #23
    TommyD Guest
    A student once asked Segovia, "What's so important about scales?"
    Segovia's answer; "Scales will solve all your problems."
    I've thought about this answer, and I came to the realization that he was probably right. Think about it.
    tommy/

  25. #24

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    the segovia scales are a good technique building exercise. as with a good deal of his fingerings, they dont make sense in many ways. not intuitive. hence they are difficult and require many quick position shifts that ARE good for building technique. that being said, i would likely never use them in any musical setting. there are roughly 7 fingering patterns, and a few that occur only once.
    but if you were to follow playing them everyday, through every key, and every right hand pattern (as suggested), you will probably get better. mainly since then you will be playing scales for about an hour and a half every day.

  26. #25

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    If you do play the Segovia scales everyday, they will become "intuitive", thus stretching your fingerboard concept and becoming musically useful.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattymel View Post
    there are roughly 7 fingering patterns, and a few that occur only once.
    but if you were to follow playing them everyday, through every key, and every right hand pattern (as suggested), you will probably get better. mainly since then you will be playing scales for about an hour and a half every day.
    I've had a couple of very good classical guitar teachers (and a few not so good), and they recommended a rotation that made you play every pattern daily, but not every scale. They also recommended a rotation of the 120 RH studies by Giuliani that brought you through all of them every week. So after a week you've played all the Segovia scales (some more than once) and all the Giuliani exercises. I would add that some of the Giuliani can be adapted to pick style, but some would need at least hybrid if not full fingerpicking. The big advantage of the Giuliani, as I see it, is that the LH is playing chords that shouldn't require any thought, just C and G7 in open position.
    Brad
    Guitars:
    1975 Guild Artist Award
    1986 Guild X-170
    1975 Guild Mark V
    1930s Metro B archtop
    1995 Epi Howard Roberts Custom
    1999 Godin ACS Nylon with synth
    ??? Giannini 7 string classical

  28. #27

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    The Segovia scales are a very limited set, only twenty four patterns, of which the main value is the demonstration of the technique of long position shifts in the three-octave scales. If you want to know the fingerboard well for improvisation / composition purposes (which was not Segovia's interest, of course), you want to study 2-octave scales in all positions and "modes" (i.e., a two octave scale beginning on each scale step in turn, with only small position shifts, forcing one to use all possible consecutive positions up the neck) and in all keys (this makes a set of about 240 patterns if you figure that on a 19 fret classical neck there are about ten 2-octave diatonic positions for each major and minor scale); and also you need harmonic minor scales (which Segovia ignores in favor of the oldfashioned melodic minor which reverts to natural minor descending.) It's great to learn the Segovia scales if you are a beginner, because they demonstrate valuable basic positions and techniques, but DON't get stuck playing them for years on end thinking that thereby you "know your scales", because you don't, not yet. There's a big world out there after the Segovia scales.

  29. #28
    The segovia scales are just regular scales major and minor...

  30. #29

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    Question I know the Berklee scales are based on the Aaron Shearer scales. Are the Segovia and Shearer scales the same, both are classical players/teachers?

  31. #30

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    SEGOVIA scales are 24 major and melodic minor scales, played longitudinally in two or three octaves, as possible. main value, as stated above, is smooth shifting and general dexterity.

    Segovia - Scales for Classic Guitar

    SHEARER scales are much more elaborate (269 pages!), with highly developed patterns generally in one position per exercise. also introduces new ideas about shifting position (like squeeze shifting), which facilitate smooth playing.

    Amazon.com: Scale Pattern Studies For Guitar, Supplement 3: Classic Guitar Technique (0029156063172): Aaron Shearer: Books

    (mercy, i hate what they have done to scribd...yetch)
    "Beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure, and we are are so awed because it serenely disdains to annihilate us." -- Ranier Maria Rilke

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz View Post
    SEGOVIA scales are 24 major and melodic minor scales, played longitudinally in two or three octaves, as possible. main value, as stated above, is smooth shifting and general dexterity.

    Segovia - Scales for Classic Guitar

    SHEARER scales are much more elaborate (269 pages!), with highly developed patterns generally in one position per exercise. also introduces new ideas about shifting position (like squeeze shifting), which facilitate smooth playing.

    Amazon.com: Scale Pattern Studies For Guitar, Supplement 3: Classic Guitar Technique (0029156063172): Aaron Shearer: Books

    (mercy, i hate what they have done to scribd...yetch)

    For the left hand, Segovia scales are all about shifting, that is, not playing in one position. Shearer and Leavitt spend a great deal of time with position playing. Shearer is basically CAGED.


    For the right hand, Segovia scales require 7 different plucking techniques! That is being missed in this discussion. A plectrists equivalent might be alternate vs. sweep, vs, hybrid or some such. Bottom line? Segovia scales are suited for the classical or finger style player.

    On the oher hand, Shearer scales can be practiced by the jazzer with a lot of direct benefit - except that you will need to maintain the major 6th and 7th degress for the descending melodic minor.

    Berklee's, that is, Leavitt's scale fingerings are not the same as Shearer's. Leavitt has 12 fingerings for the diatonic scales as opposed to the more familiar 5 CAGED. 2 of the 12 Leavitt fingerings are common with CAGED. The others are closer to 3 note per string fingerings and require 1rst and 4th finger stetches out of position.

  33. #32

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    Segovia recommended students play these scales for three hours a day, each and everyday. They were NEVER to be played intuitively, but the guitarist was to focus on each and every note.

    Right hand fingering was im, mi, ma, am, ia, ai and imami. Deviation from this or from his left hand fingering was absolutely forbidden. If you played each scale flawlessly seven times using each fingering then it is roughly a 3 hour exercise with 1,176 scales being played!

    All very nice for those of us who have three hours to warm up.

    I think we can all see why Segovia's second marriage dissolved because his live-in mother-in-law complained that he practiced too much.

    While the current price for the Diatonic Major and Minor Scales Fingered by Andres Segovia sells for about $10, my copy was 75 cents when I bought it back in high school in the early '70's.
    Last edited by Alder Statesman; 11-07-2010 at 07:06 PM.
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  34. #33

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    My teacher said that Segovia's total practice day was 5 hours, the first 2 he devoted to scales.

  35. #34

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    Not to start a war over something that really is trivial: I know three guitarists who were students of the Maestro and a friend of mine was a personal friend of Segovia. All four volunteered on different occasions: 3 hours of scales with total practice being 7 to 8 hours.

    It is just what I heard, but in the end Segovia would have nothing to do with any of us as we play electrics.
    Check out my tracks at www.soundcloud.com/billmcmannis

  36. #35

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    Yep. Ricardo Cobo for one, says that he still practices 40 hours per week. Listen to him and you can tell.

    BTW - the standards for classical and jazz guitar playing aren't the same.

    on the other hand, if you want to be able to fly on your instrument like Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, George Benson, Pat Metheny, John McLaughlin, then 2-3 hours per day probably aren't going to get you there unless you are a super freak talent. maybe that would suffice after you've reached the peak, but not on your way up.

  37. #36

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    I just bought the Segovia scales yesterday-watch out John Williams!
    There is seven different ways for the right hand for each scale-I might stick with the pick-economy picking-style.

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archtop Bill View Post
    Not to start a war over something that really is trivial: I know three guitarists who were students of the Maestro and a friend of mine was a personal friend of Segovia. All four volunteered on different occasions: 3 hours of scales with total practice being 7 to 8 hours.

    It is just what I heard, but in the end Segovia would have nothing to do with any of us as we play electrics.
    Well, then don't believe what you hear! In the book Segovia states that these scales should be practiced 2 hours a day.
    Also, who says we only play electrics?
    Studying classical guitar is very relevant for jazz imo, many people including myself, also uses nylon strings in jazz-also these scales could be practiced on the electric as well.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soco View Post
    Well, then don't believe what you hear! In the book Segovia states that these scales should be practiced 2 hours a day.
    Also, who says we only play electrics?
    Studying classical guitar is very relevant for jazz imo, many people including myself, also uses nylon strings in jazz-also these scales could be practiced on the electric as well.

    Again, I do not want to start a war, but stand by my statements. My comment was not intended to report what Segovia instructed his students to do, but what he did himself. I am no expert, but I am going by first hand accounts from very reliable sources.

    Read the accounts of how Segovia treated Chet Atkins after he discovered Chet played a Gretsch more often than nylon. As we all know, he also said the Beatles were not even his bastard children when hearing that George Harrison stated that "we are all children of Segovia." Segovia was a purest and musical snob. He would have nothing to do with followers of this forum due to our style, technique and that the majority of us, regardless of the string material, use amplified instruments. Remember this guy would rather not be heard in concert rather than have a nice mic running through a PA placed in front of him.
    Check out my tracks at www.soundcloud.com/billmcmannis

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archtop Bill View Post
    Segovia recommended students play these scales for three hours a day, each and everyday. They were NEVER to be played intuitively, but the guitarist was to focus on each and every note.

    Right hand fingering was im, mi, ma, am, ia, ai and imami. Deviation from this or from his left hand fingering was absolutely forbidden. If you played each scale flawlessly seven times using each fingering then it is roughly a 3 hour exercise with 1,176 scales being played!

    All very nice for those of us who have three hours to warm up.

    I think we can all see why Segovia's second marriage dissolved because his live-in mother-in-law complained that he practiced too much.

    While the current price for the Diatonic Major and Minor Scales Fingered by Andres Segovia sells for about $10, my copy was 75 cents when I bought it back in high school in the early '70's.
    I just bough mine for 4.50$! I have the revised edition.According to my version the last one is imamima, also if each scale is played 7 times and there are 24 scales, shouldn't it be 168 total scales instead of 1,176 scales?
    I just started these and I am doing them slow so it takes a while, I would imagine it is possible to play through them faster than 3 hours though.

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archtop Bill View Post
    Again, I do not want to start a war, but stand by my statements. My comment was not intended to report what Segovia instructed his students to do, but what he did himself. I am no expert, but I am going by first hand accounts from very reliable sources.

    Read the accounts of how Segovia treated Chet Atkins after he discovered Chet played a Gretsch more often than nylon. As we all know, he also said the Beatles were not even his bastard children when hearing that George Harrison stated that "we are all children of Segovia." Segovia was a purest and musical snob. He would have nothing to do with followers of this forum due to our style, technique and that the majority of us, regardless of the string material, use amplified instruments. Remember this guy would rather not be heard in concert rather than have a nice mic running through a PA placed in front of him.
    Segovia was indeed old school and probably wouldn't approve of what I do, however I can still learn from him. I believe I am getting something out of these scales even after only 5 days of playing them. It doesn't matter for me what he might have thought of it.

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soco View Post
    Segovia was indeed old school and probably wouldn't approve of what I do, however I can still learn from him. I believe I am getting something out of these scales even after only 5 days of playing them. It doesn't matter for me what he might have thought of it.
    We are in 100% agreement there. Having played for 45 years, my view of the Meastro has changed over the years, but I continue to play his scales as part of my warm up routine. Much of my repertoire are pieces I originally listened to on his LP's.
    Check out my tracks at www.soundcloud.com/billmcmannis

  43. #42

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    I'll save you guys some time - the Segovia scales are a waste of time and money.

    Speed is never over a long period of time, and it is usually almost never over 2 - 3 octaves either. Speed is concentrated and in short bursts. You want to play fast? Practice speed bursts.

    Find and buy Pumping Nylon. It is the CG's bible. Really is. Never met a classical guitarist who was any good that didn't completely immerse and absorb themselves in that book.

    If you can read music (assuming you can) then you should ALWAYS come up with your own ideas regarding fingering for LH and RH. You should never trust a written fingering in a score and you should always ignore it. Why? Because you will always rely on it then. You will always need a teacher to help you. You'll always have to buy music scores. That ends up costing you a lot of money that you could have saved by solving problems by being creative (and who the hell doesn't want to be creative?)

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by KShri View Post
    I'll save you guys some time - the Segovia scales are a waste of time and money.

    Speed is never over a long period of time, and it is usually almost never over 2 - 3 octaves either. Speed is concentrated and in short bursts. You want to play fast? Practice speed bursts.

    Find and buy Pumping Nylon. It is the CG's bible. Really is. Never met a classical guitarist who was any good that didn't completely immerse and absorb themselves in that book.

    If you can read music (assuming you can) then you should ALWAYS come up with your own ideas regarding fingering for LH and RH. You should never trust a written fingering in a score and you should always ignore it. Why? Because you will always rely on it then. You will always need a teacher to help you. You'll always have to buy music scores. That ends up costing you a lot of money that you could have saved by solving problems by being creative (and who the hell doesn't want to be creative?)
    No I don't want to play fast, I want to develop a better right hand technique and these scales is a new approach. I am getting something out of it-it only cost me 4 bucks. No I don't need a teacher, I already have a masters degree in guitar. If you insist I will check out Pumping Nylon, I am always up for learning something new.

  45. #44

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    OK gotcha.

    What do you want to develop in the RH exactly? Angle? Tone? Rest strokes? Planting?

    Just seeing where I can try to help you find what you're looking for. But I do believe Pumping Nylon will cover any and all of these. I still have my original from many years ago and revisit it. I'm 24 and mine is very wrinkled.

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by KShri View Post
    OK gotcha.

    What do you want to develop in the RH exactly? Angle? Tone? Rest strokes? Planting?

    Just seeing where I can try to help you find what you're looking for. But I do believe Pumping Nylon will cover any and all of these. I still have my original from many years ago and revisit it. I'm 24 and mine is very wrinkled.
    Those are some of the things I am developing yes.

  47. #46

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    Go out and buy Pumping Nylon tomorrow.

    Other than that, I would be happy to be at your disposal for any questions you have.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by KShri View Post
    I'll save you guys some time - the Segovia scales are a waste of time and money.
    Never known a classical guitarist worth a damn who was arrogant enough to scorn the Segovia scales. I have, though, known an amazing number of self-taught blockheads who did.

    Speed is never over a long period of time, and it is usually almost never over 2 - 3 octaves either. Speed is concentrated and in short bursts.
    Evidently, that's because you haven't practised your Segovia scales. Duh.

    If you can read music (assuming you can) then you should ALWAYS come up with your own ideas regarding fingering for LH and RH. You should never trust a written fingering in a score and you should always ignore it. Why? Because you will always rely on it then. You will always need a teacher to help you. You'll always have to buy music scores. That ends up costing you a lot of money that you could have saved by solving problems by being creative (and who the hell doesn't want to be creative?)
    This is arrant nonsense. No fingerings + no teacher = no good. For one thing, if you only rely on your own half-baked ideas regarding fingering, you are missing the benefit of the wisdom of players who know more than you do (most, I expect). If you don't get the logic behind such-and-such a fingering, rather than the fingering being wrong, it is far more likely that that is because your understanding is limited, in this case, extremely so, it would seem.

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by KShri View Post
    Go out and buy Pumping Nylon tomorrow.

    Other than that, I would be happy to be at your disposal for any questions you have.
    I don't think you are knowledgeable enough to answer any questions.
    I used to ignore fingerings, but I realized there is a lot to learn from them even if I don't agree with all of them. Segovia was an amazing guitarist and I'd rather follow his advice then some nameless person on a forum.
    Having said that, I will check out pumping nylon.

  50. #49

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    Really, guys?

    John Ross:

    Go and find me 5 works that contain a scale over 2 - 3 octaves. Then come talk.

    For any particular passage, you should be able to come up with all the alternate possibilities on your own. Then, you should decide which fingering to use.

    I never claimed to say to not have a teacher. A teacher is a great resource. Everyone should have one at some point in their career. I said that if you rely on fingerings in a score than you will always rely on them. And sadly, you do.

    I'm not a self-taught blockhead... jeez. I have a degree in classical guitar performance.

    I come from the modern school of guitar, the Romero technique. Based heavily on the Pujol method.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by KShri View Post
    John Ross:

    Go and find me 5 works that contain a scale over 2 - 3 octaves. Then come talk.
    Go and get some manners, boy. And wipe your nose.
    For any particular passage, you should be able to come up with all the alternate possibilities on your own. Then, you should decide which fingering to use.
    Well, fingering is part of a guitarist's skill set. That isn't what you said, though, you said we should "always ignore" the given fingering, which is just crazy talk.
    I'm not a self-taught blockhead... jeez. I have a degree in classical guitar performance.
    I was judging on the evidence available to me.
    I come from the modern school of guitar, the Romero technique. Based heavily on the Pujol method.
    Pepe Romero represents "the" modern school? "The?" Well, that's news. If when you mention Pujol, you mean the great guitar teacher Emilio Pujol (direct continuation of the tradition of Tarrega), I don't think there are many divergences between his approach and Segovia's, but I have a horrible feeling you are talking about some other Pujol.