Segovia Scales

[KShri]

I am a piece of work. Opinionated. I'm sorry for that.

I will oppose those whose bark is far worse than their bite.

[goinbaroke]

Segovia did say that if he had only one thing to practice it would be scales.

[anna_guitarist]

SHEARER scales are much more elaborate (269 pages!), with highly developed patterns generally in one position per exercise. also introduces new ideas about shifting position (like squeeze shifting), which facilitate smooth playing.

Amazon.com: Scale Pattern Studies For Guitar, Supplement 3: Classic Guitar Technique (0029156063172): Aaron Shearer: Books

(mercy, i hate what they have done to scribd...yetch)

I agree. Segovia Scales make great shifting exercises, but are not practical scales for improvisation. Shearer scales are better for smooth playing.

[ronjazz]

I can't find KShri's CDs anywhere.

I wonder why?

[Soco]

I can't find KShri's CDs anywhere.

I wonder why?

He is in the studio now as we speak making a recording. He was teamed up with Quincy Jones for his groundbreaking debut album. Rumors have it Kim Khardashian will be singing backing vocals.

[goinbaroke]

Practicing Segovia scales on a classical guitar which has no fret markers will definitely teach you the fingerboard!!

[mattymel]

there are 8 total fingerings in the Segovia scales. i spent a few months playing them through all 24 keys using all the suggested RH variations.

i found it (as already covered) good for position shifts, but having already spent many years playing scales (sometimes with a very mindless mindset) the main thing i improved from following the regiment was TONE...learning how to get an even sound between !M, MI, MA, AM, AMIMA, etc...

there are also many things that the segovia scales teach you that have nothing to do with scales. like how to phrase a melody on the guitar. i think that is the whole point of position shifting.

[jasonc]

I'm always puzzled by the heated exchange when it comes to what scales one chooses to learn. They all have their positives and they all have their negatives. The first time I took lessons for jazz the teacher asked me if I knew my scales I said "Of course I do!" (I was a classical guitar performance major at the time) and proceeded to play him the three octave Gmaj "Segovia" scale that he requested. Then he said "OK, now just play it right there." and pointed to a spot on the neck....well, I had to think about the key signature and figure the notes out. He then said "So, no. You don't. We'll start with scales." Humbling to be sure, but it taught me a lesson. The Segovia scales are pedagogically important, yes, but they are not the only way to play them and they are not always the most efficient (even when shifting). As far as fingerings are concerned, if it's not comfortable for YOUR hand then it is a bad fingering. However, sometimes it doesn't make sense at first and you don't see why that fingering is the way it is until later in the piece. Executing the music cleanly and musically is far more important than the fingering or scale you choose. If you really know your scales it should be no problem to play CAGED, Segovia, three notes per string, or any other combination or be able to shift any where you want anyway. So who cares how you get there as long as you get there? Right? Who's with me?

[mattymel]

...being that this is a jazz forum i would also add that i find they are for the most part almost completely useless in jazz guitar playing...

[whatswisdom]

If you really know your scales it should be no problem to play CAGED, Segovia, three notes per string, or any other combination or be able to shift any where you want anyway. So who cares how you get there as long as you get there? Right? Who's with me?

Me. The more ways you can find to learn how to play, the merrier. Hard to argue against learning from Segovia.

[ronjazz]

I'm with you, Jason. In fact, learning Mick Goodrick's "Unitar" concept (each string is a one-string guitar) is an excellent way to really start learning the fingerboard in an organic, useful way. Scales are NEVER useless, even in jazz guitar playing, because, when done right, they produce several important results, from learning the fingerboard to tone production to left-right coordination to plectrum technique or RH finger technique, etc. Nearly everything one needs to accomplish on the instrument can be accomplished with conscious, creative scale practice.

[Gitarguy]

...being that this is a jazz forum i would also add that i find they are for the most part almost completely useless in jazz guitar playing...

Wow...

Would you please explain just exactly how technique, facility, and skill are "for the most part almost completely useless in jazz guitar playing..." I would really like to know.

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The Segovia Scales are about far more than just fingering or going through the motions of doing an exercise. They are about facility; with the right hand perhaps even more with the left. A classical guitarist needs to have every picking pattern available on autopilot, and the Segovia Scales are how one acquires that autopilot for the right hand.

This also translates perfectly to other fingerpicking styles, whether it be conventional simple arpeggios, hybrid picking, or even Travis picking. The point is to build fundamental skills that are universally applicable, and the Scales are a vital part of that journey.

A previous poster mentioned tone production, and that control has to be learnrd and internalized. This is where Segovia is so valuable. Also, once the various pingerings right hand patterns are mastered, then advanced techniques like tremolo simply fall into place. A smooth, even tremolo is a beautiful thing, and they don't get handed out like Halloween candy, they have to be earned.

Formal study of the classical guitar provides the musician with a strong, broad foundation of knowledge, skills, and techniques upon which to build his musicianship: regardless of the genre he chooses to pursue later on. Unfortunately, this foundation is the step most people choose to omit. Then they wonder why their abilities plateau and do not progress. Why indeed?

[mattymel]

yes, i was the actual "previous poster". show me a jazz solo using segovia fingerings...obviously technique is pretty universal. but im confidant in saying they arent useful in jazz playing because i played the segovia scales for years. for the most part they are not conducive to playing with traditional jazz phrasing.

[brad4d8]

yes, i was the actual "previous poster". show me a jazz solo using segovia fingerings...obviously technique is pretty universal. but im confidant in saying they arent useful in jazz playing because i played the segovia scales for years. for the most part they are not conducive to playing with traditional jazz phrasing.

There's at least one classical guitarist, possibly Eduardo Fernandez, who advocates no scale exercises but rather find passages from the repertoire to use instead. He maintains that you never encounter scale passages in the repertoire, so they are not useful as practice exercises. Although I practiced them diligently during my classical period, I much prefer other scale patterns in general, Johnny Smith's for example.
Brad

[mattymel]

Agreed. I've always kept my jazz and classical guitar worlds separate. In not a fan of nylon strings for jazz, even when done with the hands of a master. I've also found that the thinking behind practicing scales for jazzers and classys couldn't be more different. When I was studying classical I asked my teacher about specific fingerings for scales in various intervals and he stared at me strangely and asked me why I would want to practice that? I just find the thinking between the two worlds couldn't be more different. And that's fine by me. It definitely affected my technique, but little else.

[fumblefingers]

i think that the 2-octave scales - or should i say the 2-position 2-octave Segovia scales - are good practice. however, they should be considered as only one of many technical capabilities to master.

the 3-octave scales may not be as useful in a direct sense perhaps, but they do help the guitarist learn to shift cleanly, and learn to negotiate the full range of the instrument in a very fluid fashion. that seems invaluable to me even if the benefits to a jazz soloist are somewhat indirect.

Berklee teaches 3-octave scales with so-called "mirror fingerings". i think that they have a similar benefit as the Segovia 3-octave scales. one advantage is that Berklee has them mapped out for most of the familiar scales/modes practiced by jazzers.

[Gillman Royce]

Maybe this will help. In all my years of study with Segovia proteges (3), the scales we used were/are known as Diatonic Scales. Whenever I asked why things had to be done exactly this or that way, with no room for creative variation, the answer was always the same " Because that's the way Segovia does it."

[ronjazz]

Clearly "because that's the way Segovia does it" is a rather stupid answer, and in all my years of studying with Segovia proteges, I never heard such a lazy reason given. Scales are scales, and different fingerings and approaches must be investigated, especially for jazz players. The Segovia scales bring a certain organization to the practice of scales, but nobody I've encountered, including John Williams and Oscar Ghiglia, both of whom I studied with, claimed that they were the only scales to practice.

[craigh]

I have used the scales off and on for almost 16 years. They really help your coordination between your right and left hands. Make sure to use the recommended right hand fingerings.

[furtom]

Just found this thread!

mattymel is spot on in everything he is saying. I'm a classical guitarist who is "branching out," and even though I'm no jazz expert or indeed any kind of real jazzer, I can tell you Segovia scales have zero application for jazz guitar.

Classical guitar scales are all about the quality of each individual scale. i.e. finding the very best fingerings for tone. It's all about classical technique.

Most of them are not really transposable and those that are resemble the scales you already know.

Two different approaches to scales for two different objectives.

[ronjazz]

All scales have application to jazz guitar. To say that the Segovia scales have no application to jazz guitar is to say that no scales have application to jazz guitar.

Having said that, the Segovia scales are less useful to plectrum players than the Leavitt scales, because the Segovia scales are designed for both hands. If one plays jazz fingerstyle or on the nylon-string guitar with fingers, the Segovia scales will make you a better player. Classical guitar scales are all about coordination between the two hands, as are all scale studies. Furtom, you should get further into jazz guitar before expressing an opinion as drastic as that.

[furtom]

All scales have application to jazz guitar. To say that the Segovia scales have no application to jazz guitar is to say that no scales have application to jazz guitar.

Having said that, the Segovia scales are less useful to plectrum players than the Leavitt scales, because the Segovia scales are designed for both hands. If one plays jazz fingerstyle or on the nylon-string guitar with fingers, the Segovia scales will make you a better player. Classical guitar scales are all about coordination between the two hands, as are all scale studies. Furtom, you should get further into jazz guitar before expressing an opinion as drastic as that.

Perhaps, yes, I should.

But my main point was related to their applicability for improvisation. If a person's objective is to become a better guitar player, particularly on nylon strings, you'll get no argument from me.