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In my university setting, many years ago, freshman music students decidedly went one way or the other;classical or jazz. I really wish that there was a more co-operative and inclusive way to teach and study music. It seems like classical players often come to jazz late, and have a hard time, conceptually, and I assume the same may be true for jazz musicians?
It seems like classical musicians are more "caretakers", or curators and much of the musicology is forensic in nature. It took two hundred years to start the "back to Bach" movement, heralded by Mendelson,(sic) and 20th century conductors like Christopher Hogwood who finally reduced the overblown orchestras back to their intent and people could hear Beethoven as it was written and played. There has for many years been a renaissance of playing period music on period instruments too.
While Classical music has been a historic study, Jazz has always seemed modern and moving forward. Will there ever be a "back to Basie" movement in two hundred years? Will musicians ever try to play King Oliver and Jelly Roll Morton as it was intended and on period instruments in the future??
I applaud people like Winton Marsalis who plays the best classical trumpet around and, I believe, is a well respected jazz musician. I wish we could all learn and teach the gestalt of this art form?
I think everyone should know of Machaut, Palestrina, Bach, Schoenberg, as well as Basie, Nat King Cole, Satie, Penderecki, etc.......
Will Jazz have a historic following or always be "modern"?? I wonder of these things a lot, but who else could I tell them too?
Sailor
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10-19-2008 09:56 PM
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i view wynton as a jazz historian (and sometimes to a fault)
i hope personally, the music continues to grow, but never loses sight of it's roots. i hate when i see some local avant garde cat blowin' his brains out, but you just know deep down he couldn't play changes if he had to. jazz music has a great history, and we owe it to ourselves to know it.
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I always enjoy your responses Mr. Beaumont, and I'm glad to see someone else interested in the hows and whys of Jazz too!
Wynton is a jazz historian, to be sure; but to what fault? And I believe he must be quite classically trained too, or a GREAT sight reader!!
Sailor
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I'm taking some college classes and after getting as many community college music units as I can and an AA I will then decide about going on to get a BA or MA. Part of me wants to be a guitar major but I wouldn't want to choose between classical or jazz... I'm thinking I'll be a composition major, hopefully that will be more inclusive of various forms of music. And, I enjoy playing my own creations much more than playing standards/covers.
Originally Posted by Sailor
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Classical music is still alive and composers are still out there crankin' out music. Hard to keep track of all of jazz and all of classical, historical or contemporary ... but don't write either one of them off. I've met a couple of composers (while at uni and outside of it) -- and while they know their history, they are also trying to reflect their own time by writing relevant music and putting it in more contemporary settings. For example, I saw a film the other night, No Reservations, and the score was by Philip Glass. Shostakovich wrote film music as well.
I think by the very size and expense of orchestras, they have to operate as caretakers and in general have to be more conservative in their programs. Tough to pay the bills if you don't fill the seats. But I think most orchestras attempt to put new music in their programs. Of course, composers don't have to only write for orchestras. You may have more luck in seeing chamber groups. Less overhead to fuss over.
Compare an orchestra's operating budget with a jazz trio's and you'll see why a jazz trio can often afford to take chances with the music it selects.
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The problem I have with Wynton isn't his music but the way he approaches his music. He plays in a very neo-conservative style that doesn't really do anything for me. Granted albums like "Black Codes (From The Underground)," "J Mood," and the first three "Standard Time" albums were all excellent and demonstrated great depth and understanding of jazz, but it seems that he is personally a narrow-minded person who will argue with anyone willing to argue. His knowledge of jazz history is very limited. Much like the whole Ken Burns' Jazz series, which was totally hit and miss.
As far as this topic is concerned, not the classical and jazz discussion...again.
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Oh wow, I'm so glad this thread came up. I'm one of those monkeys who loves to play all that traditional stuff like the Ink Spots, Billie Holiday, Helen Merrill, Count Basie, Charley Christian, etc etc etc. I don't go in for the avant garde at all. I also don't play smooth jazz or fusion. For the record, I don't think it's bad stuff, I just don't prefer to listen to it. That's one of the reasons I got into vintage (pre 1960) guitar collecting in the first place. You can't beat playing that old stuff on real period instruments instead of copies. I mentioned this in another thread. To me, the vintage guitars are more than just tools or collectibles. They're reminders of the older days and the clubs and historic musicians who played there. When I pick up let's say a 1943 Epiphone Emperor and chunk out that rhythm, I'm right there along with Freddie Green, Teddy Bunn, etc. When I pick up a 1947 ES-350, I'm right there playing in the Three Deuces or in the studio making a record with Bird and Diz and all the greats.
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Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
I LOVE bebop probably more than most people on this site and I have the collection of music to prove my obsession. I will say that the more melodic avant-garde music like the music Paul Motian and Tomasz Stanko play are amazing. I think it's a valid point to make that not all free jazz has to be atonal and to be honest I hate that shit probably more than anyone on this site, but there has been some very melodic music in this genre and I think it's safe to look at most of the ECM catalog as melodic free jazz.
Paul Motian
Tomasz Stanko
Jan Garbarek
Kenny Wheeler
All of these musicians above play in a more avant-garde style that is both harmonic and melodic.Last edited by frisellfan19; 10-20-2008 at 02:05 AM.
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Kenny is a brilliant musician. I have played with him in many contexts from his big band to his drummerless quartet.
I remember playing with him in zurich on the Music for large and small Ensembles tour. At one point he played a cadenza on his own, totally improvised. It was like listening to the history of jazz. I remember improving as a player right there and then. Just this july gone i played with him in the North sea Jazz festival with the quartet (Palle D and John P).
He had to sit down most of the gig. He was brilliant.
Mike
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For the record, I have no problem at all with harmonic and melodic free jazz. It's the stuff that sounds like a group of chimpanzees tearing apart a music store that makes me sick. And then those dudes come off like they're using some kind of exotic theory. If the music is harsh, overly loud and frantic, I don't like it no matter what style it is.
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i have a little resentment of wynton's involvement with the ken burns jazz thing, which basically discounts anything made after 1960. sometimes i see wynton putting on his "jazz authority" face in interviews, when he should really just play--because he plays well.
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I think that Wynton represents the historical roots of jazz in a fair way. To be really objective, the evolution of the jazz language pretty much peaked in the bebop era. Everything afterwards was pretty derivative. This is not to say that the post-bebop era didn't present significant music, but from a historical perspective it didn't really add much to the definition of the artf orm.
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i must respectfully yet wholeheartedly disagree.
to me, bebop was the beginning of jazz as an art form--it's when the music finally moved away from it's connection to popular music and essentially lost it's audience--but gained so much more. jazz became about the musician then--a creative language that cats could speak to each other that only some could really understand--but when they did! it was finally pure creative expression for the sake of creativity--true art--, and in the next 30 years, so much ground was broken that to leave it out of a history of the music is ignorant at best--or biased journalism at worst. wynton has been part of what i'd call the "jazz police" who some how feel qualified to decide what music matters/ is important, and that's my beef with him and the series in general.
what about miles' modal music? coltrane's free improvisation? the introduction of electricity to the sound? third stream? fusion? avant-garde? post bop? these aren't innovations? these didn't significantly alter our perception of what could be "jazz" music? saying that these don't is like saying visual art hasn't changed since davinci since we still use paint. it's how we use the vocabulary that breaks new ground, and to me, NO music has ever undergone as much innovation than jazz in the 30 years or so AFTER bebop.
i really felt let down by ken's "jazz" after the exhaustive research he had done to make his baseball and civil war series' so excellent. it spoke of jazz as something lost and discovered--not a living breathing entity...jazz is america's only uniquely american art form, and to disrespect many of the artists who changed it AND kept it alive for today is disgraceful. yeah, ken burns, disgraceful.
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I think when art forms "move away from the popular" is when they really take off and become ART! Examples in all mediums visual, aural, literature, etc.......
The modern art of jazz may have a smaller and selective audience than say the heigth of the swing big band era when it was commercial and popular.
BUT, don't we need the Wyntons as conservators? I'd like to think in a hundred years some kid will want to swing with Basie and that this art isn't lost either.
Maybe one form of jazz peaked in the Bop era and another was born after?? "Classical" music had and has many movements under that broad heading that have little to do with each other.
Sailor
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surely jazz 'stopped' when louis armstrong came on the scene?
Mr B, excellent post, could not agree more.
Mike
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I remember something I read about the switch from pre bop to bop music. I don't know how accurate it is because I really don't know what was in the minds of the pre bop musician. The article said that prebop improvisation was based on working around the melody of the song or in the case of Charlie Christian, based around chord shapes on the neck. It went on to say that with Charley Parker and Dizzy, improvisation was based around chord changes which is the way we supposedly do now. How true this is, I'll never know but it's food for thought.
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I agree with this observation Hot Ford. What is also interesting is the development of jazz phrasing into bebop which to me really defines the peak of the jazz language. It has been said that bebop is to modern jazz as latin was to english. Although nobody speaks Latin anymore, the language has influenced everthing we say in English. Similarily, nobody today really plays bebop the way Parker and Dizzy did but their concepts and phrasing permeate all of jazz today in one way or another. Even modal jazz evolved from bebop as a means of simplifying the changes and allowing more freedom in phrasing. This is all to say that to really understand the present state of jazz, one must first trace its evolution from Louis Armstrong to Charlie Parker. So IMO, Wynton (and Burns) are merely preserving the core of jazz evolution. Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
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Thanks Jazzaluk for the info. I definitely notice a major change in improvisation the way it was done before Bird and after. Listen to older Benny Goodman, King Oliver or earlier Louis Armstrong and compare that to Tal Farlow, Oscar Peterson or Clifford Brown. It's almost like the original lines were really antiquated and corny and after Bird, improv became more mature and hip. Once the franticness of many bop tunes was gone and evolved into the cool style, the instrument sounds softened but the lines retained that maturity.
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For some, the essence of jazz, really began when the be bop 'language' started to 'cool out'. For others it stopped at louis armstrong.
I played be bop when i was 18. I devoured it. I loved it. But my language evolved naturally. By the time i was 24 my language had grown into ecm Keith Jarrett, Kenny Wheeler thing. Listen to Jim Hall in 58/59 Sonny Rollins, Coltrane, Miles, Joe Zawnul, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter.
Then wind the clock on. Seminal moments. Jazz defines itself as it grows into and out of 'the moment'.
Our 'classics' of 40 years ago were groundbreaking then, just as Dickens was, Just as....etc etc.
I wonder if anyone has ever claimed an era of music that they hated as being the defining moment or the pinnacle of that music.
Mike
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I don't believe I've ever met anyone who said that jazz stopped at Louis Armstrong. That would be an easy argument to dismiss.
I think the perception that jazz began after bebop "cooled down" is understandable but misleading, and, actually reinforces the idea that Bebop represented the pivotal point in the jazz language.
In every evolutionary process there is always a point where things cannot evolve anymore, then, a new process begins; Its called involution and often represents the most productive period. Involusion involves taking what is already created as raw material and re-organizing it to create new variations. In the case of post 60s jazz, I would say that the raw material of true and successful jazz artists could easily be traced to bebop whether they knew it or not.
If what I have said is somehow viewed as a condemnation of the excellent jazz music that was created after the Bebop era, then I fear my point has been missed. I for one am grateful to the past masters for leaving such a legacy and providing the raw material for channelling musical creativity.Last edited by Jazzaluk; 10-21-2008 at 12:50 PM.
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[quote=Jazzaluk;16669]I don't believe I've ever met anyone who said that jazz stopped at Louis Armstrong. That would be an easy argument to dismiss.
quote]
This reminds me of the funniest moment I've ever had in a classroom! I was in a jazz pedagogy class during my undergrad and we were assigned to go to the front of the class and introduce ourselves and talk about why we were interested in jazz.
One student actually got up and said, and I quote, "I think jazz music ended in 1945 and if anyone disagrees I will take them outside and beat this fact into them!"
And he wasn't kidding, nobody knew whether to laugh or call the cops. The funniest part is that this guy is now a thoroughly modern player who has totally disregarded his swing music roots!
Funny stuff.
MW
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i'm not going to get too much into Wynton only that he needs to play his horn more and shut up more. He can be the jivest motherfucker in the world and sometimes he can be cool. Despite Ken Burns' attempt to lable Wynton as some sort of messianic figure in Jazz he's just another great player who's finding his way.
Bottom line though, a truly prepared Jazz musician has got his foundations together. If you're playing modern modal tripped out 7/4 Jazz you can tell that guy can't play changes if you can't hear the tradition in his sound and style. Most guys out there today can play through any Bebop tune, and fear no tempo. But you run into kids at schools and on scenes who bullshit their way through standards in some vein attempt to get to the part of the set where they play there own tunes which have nothing to offer harmonically... Jazz is a tradition and everyone has to get into it.
I think once you can get through the rights of passage of learning to play on changes whereever it is you decide to go after that is entirely up to your own choices musically. Classical Musicians have to work with their precomposed repetiore and have to find other ways on making it fresh and or their own.
I love a well performed Classical guitar piece. The reason why Classical players have the most trouble, in my experience is that it literally is a completely different approach to the instrument right down to how you produce sound, the width of the body and neck, the type of strings etc (unlesrs you're playing jazz on a nylon, and even then...)
Classical players have the most trouble learning to swing, and learning how the phrases line up. Many of them can't get how you are supposed to play what's not on the page as well as what's on the page... or that the page is only a suggestion. Some of them can't think for themselves in that respect. Some of them, have no problem.
Where I went to school, Undergraduates had to take 4 semesters of Classical Lessons on their primary instrument, and pass a Jury before they could take Jazz lessons for a credit to their degrees. I thought it was a good thing and in some ways a bad thing. Bad thing in terms of luring Students to come to the school (I ain't playing that classical shit) or expenses (fuck that I'm not buying another guitar that I'll only play for 2 years).
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Yikes... a jazz lovin' knuckle dragger...who would have thunk. Sounds like he should be playing hockey instead of music. Originally Posted by m78w
BTW I'm going to a Roddy Ellias workshop on the 25th. He's also playing at our local jazz club the night before. Looking forward to it.
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No, don't worry, I didn't take your comments that way...but i did feel that way a bit about ken burn's piece--my rant was directed there. Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
i think no matter what we view as the pivotal point in the music (i'd like to dream it's still to come, or at least, another pivotal point) i think the important thing to realize is that there is a jazz tradition and it's important to know it and respect it--remember--i'm a guy who spends most of his time playing standards! so i love the old stuff too.
i've had experiences similar to jake that have confirmed this for me...to many a time i've seen some cat blowin' his brains out, and you just know he couldn't play changes to save his life...
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You need to get into the trad places jazza. I've heard it on many occasions.
For me, Be Bop was just another move along the way.
I didn't miss the point Jazza, but i am enjoying the debate.
Excellent points being made and a very funny story from MW.
I love that. Classical music stopped at Palestrina, and anyone who disagrees gets a damned good thrashing!!
So many analogies.
Mike
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