Players using classical technique?

[hed_b94]

ok.
how familiar are you with classical right hand techniques?

for starters, can you play intermediate to advanced classical studies or pieces at this time?

are you already well versed with the Segovia scales and Giuliani right hand studies? do you play these with the kind of hand position and striking angle/techniques described in say....Noad's first book?

yes, yes, I dont know.

[fumblefingers]

if you don't know then you'll just need to find out, if you care to. maybe this thread was just a curiosity.

ciao.

[Aristotle]

if you don't know then you'll just need to find out, if you care to. maybe this thread was just a curiosity.

ciao.

Maybe it just means 'finger-style' when he says classical.

[fumblefingers]

ok i received another response so i will say this.

i have reviewed all the guitarists mentioned in this thread except David Oakes. there are many fine, fine players here.

but again - none of them uses strict classical guitar right hand technique when they play, even when they play nylon string guitars. frankly they don't need to, it wouldn't sound stylistically correct. i think they know what they're doing.

learning classical right hand technique is a great place to start mind you, but there are more direct methods for learning jazz fingerstyle if that is your target style.

[hed_b94]

ok i received another response so i will say this.

i have reviewed all the guitarists mentioned in this thread except David Oakes. there are many fine, fine players here.

but again - none of them uses strict classical guitar right hand technique when they play, even when they play nylon string guitars. frankly they don't need to, it wouldn't sound stylistically correct. i think they know what they're doing.

learning classical right hand technique is a great place to start mind you, but there are more direct methods for learning jazz fingerstyle if that is your target style.

You are saying their technique isn't completly strict but avoid saying what is the difference.

and why do you think it wouldn't sound 'stylistically correct'? the classical technique is the "right" technique for guitar playing.

[Jazzaluk]

The classical technique is really about tone and projection on a classical guitar. It does not produce the same effect with amplification where projection is not the driver. On electric guitars the touch has to be adapted to the amplifier and the tone you desire. There are more variables so experimentation is necessary. Un-amplified with nylon strings, the classical technique is definitely the best. Lenny Breau said that he did not "play" the guitar, he "touched" the guitar. Check him out. Cheers

[fumblefingers]

You are saying their technique isn't completly strict but avoid saying what is the difference.

and why do you think it wouldn't sound 'stylistically correct'? the classical technique is the "right" technique for guitar playing.

i'm not avoiding it, i'm just not going out my way for you. if you'll watch and listen to these guys you can see and hear the difference. watch a few videos of those players and then watch John Williams, Julian Bream, David Russell, Pepe Romero, etc. also check out Noad's book like i hinted at. that was a big clue for you, but you'll need to check it out.

a couple of hints - the players mentioned here have a flatter hand, use the thumb to cover more strings, use less alternation of fingers, use less rest stroke, use the side of the thumb much more, and on and on.

regarding the style and sound comment - you'll notice that these guys play with a loose sound and style - and that fits jazz. a strict classical technique would sound comparatively stiff and strident. like i said, i think they know what they're doing.

[NSJ]

Here in Chicago, the dean of all guitarists is Jack Cecchini, who is now largely retired. But he spent the better part of 50 plus years playing both jazz and classical guitar, and he has used his classical technique to develop his jazz playing, particularly in context to solo jazz guitar. Jack always has said that playing with a pick is like playing piano with one finger--true polyphony begins with the utilization of the fingers. Particularly on 7 string guitar, which Jack is also a master of and, according to him, is only best utilized via fingerstyle technique (you can't dampen or skip more than one consecutive string with the plectrum). Many years ago, Jack tried to get Joe Pass interested in 7 string, as Joe was largely a fingerstyle player, but Joe didn't really follow up on that.

When playing jazz with a group, I've seen Jack exclusively play archtop with a pick, but when playing solo guitar, he plays fingerstyle--he agrees that the nails for a steel string guitar need to be much shorter than for a classical guitar.

Jack was a jazz player who, in the early 60s, began to seriously study classical guitar, traveling the world to get instruction and develop as a classical player. He said that the original impotence to learn classical guitar was provided to him by Harry Belafonte, whom he was comping for one night when the power went out. Jack realized he needed to develop his right hand, and classical technique was the best way to develop the right hand. By the mid 60s, he was already featured on guitar concertos with orchestras such as the Grant Park Symphony and later, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. In an interview with Studs Terkel at the time, Studs asked him about the unique personalities and voices in jazz, and Jack promptly picked up his classical guitar and demonstrated how Johnny Smith's rendition of 'My Funny Valentine" may differ from Django's. It's an extraordinary, almost nonchalant part of the interview. I thought when I heard it, "wow, imagine how much work must have gone in to demonstrate something like that!"

Jack has started a website, Jack Cecchini

To get a better idea of Jack as a player and teacher, here is what the very best in the world have said (taken also from his website):

"I have known Jack Cecchini for 45 years. He is a dedicated teacher and gifted Performer. He is one of the very few that can play both classic and jazz guitar with artistic conviction. He brings to performance and teaching an insight and expertise that comes only with many years of experience. His legacy is the inumerable guitarists that have benefited from his talent, vast knowledge, and wise guidance."

-Johnny Smith-



"Jack is one of the finest musicians I have ever met. He has it all, experience, taste and the ability to transcend the instrument"

-Jimmy Bruno-



"To speak about Jack Cecchini means recalling a good deal of the first memories of my American life. Together with Jim Norris Jack introduced me to Chicago and its musical background, still fully alive in the Sixties. His jazz playing showed me what was for me an unusual and somehow longed for aspect of guitar playing.I was destined to avoid it in favour of the classical style, which was what my folks, faithful to European musical tradition, almost imposed me to do. To see Jack go from the finger technique and what was familiar to me as far as sound and phrasing to a rhythmic pulse, in which the music flowed, almost shamefully free of constraints, was as hard to accept as the renouncement to something alike that I had accepted, in a time not so long before. The wound was, so to speak, still sore and I would listen to him (as I still do today, if I have the chance to walk into a lesson of his, and hear him show a young aspiring jazz guitarist how "Nuages should be done with certain amazement and a kind of awe. He has the magic capability to fill the room with what does not really exist! In fact, during the time separating a phrase from the other, I seem to hear an imaginary echo of the drums, the bass. But only because he makes them exist in his musical space, and I am a lucky one who can perceive that! I think he's a very lucky man, who has been able to sample and master both sides of our instrument. That great Jazz, that made Chicago famous in the Thirties, was the most fertile ground where to grow his Italian roots and carry on the seeds of what finally grew, out of this combination becoming his own guitar".

- Oscar Ghiglia -



"I know of no other guitarist or educator that has inspired so many players…Jack is the best"!

-Bob Benedetto-
(Chairman Benedetto Guitars, Inc.)


"I have known Jack for over 30 years. Our association has been an enrichment to my life that goes much further then just the music. His knowledge of the guitar and classical music has stretched my boundaries far past anything I would have ever imagined. I could write a book about Jack".

-Phil Upchurch-

[jseaberry]

I'll second that opinion. I sure miss the days when South Wabash was Music Central.

[Aristotle]

he has used his classical technique to develop his jazz playing,

Which classical techniques did he use to develop jazz playing?

[NSJ]

Which classical techniques did he use to develop jazz playing?

Well, as a non-classical player, I'm not really qualified to address all the technical differences and requirements in the two distinct traditions and disciplines. It is beyond the scope of my limited understanding to give a meaningful response to that question.

I do know that when Jack has you switching over from a pick, for single note lines, he has you beginning on developing alternate strokes with both p-i and i-m, as well as developing a feel for apoyando and tirando (rest and free strokes), as well as developing and articulating good sounding ascending and descending slurs and paying careful attention to finger and hand angles for both right and left hands.

One thing Jack emphasizes, that I think is fairly unique in the jazz world, is the sense of touch and dynamics, musical qualities not really emphasized in jazz, but form the basis for the various interpretative skills required of a classical player. Even when playing with a pick, for example, I know that he will have you practicing downstrokes and upstrokes in which you are to maintain the same speed/velocity (ie, keep the same time) but vary the volume of the sound, to be able to go from soft to loud without changing speed of your down or upstrokes, which is dependent on how tightly one grips the pick.

Interestingly enough, Gary Peacock addressed this issue in part when someone asked him the difference between Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett. Gary said that while Bill had a sound, he did not have the sense of touch that Keith has. Keith himself attributed this ability to play with touch and dynamics to his classical skills (he also said that classical players "never pound" the piano).

[hed_b94]

i'm not avoiding it, i'm just not going out my way for you. if you'll watch and listen to these guys you can see and hear the difference. watch a few videos of those players and then watch John Williams, Julian Bream, David Russell, Pepe Romero, etc. also check out Noad's book like i hinted at. that was a big clue for you, but you'll need to check it out.

a couple of hints - the players mentioned here have a flatter hand, use the thumb to cover more strings, use less alternation of fingers, use less rest stroke, use the side of the thumb much more, and on and on.

regarding the style and sound comment - you'll notice that these guys play with a loose sound and style - and that fits jazz. a strict classical technique would sound comparatively stiff and strident. like i said, i think they know what they're doing.

Are we playing some game I'm not aware of?

I am able to see the difference between casual electric fingerstyle and classical technique, but I don't think those players know what they're doing in terms of classical playing.

[fumblefingers]

Are we playing some game I'm not aware of?

I am able to see the difference between casual electric fingerstyle and classical technique, but I don't think those players know what they're doing in terms of classical playing.

no game. and i never said that.

i said that they know what they are doing - and it is not classical technique. it is their own brand of finger style technique that suits their musical style and playing goals. they are not playing classical music, nor are they trying to play with that technique.

clear now?

[hed_b94]

no game. and i never said that.

i said that they know what they are doing - and it is not classical technique. it is their own brand of finger style technique that suits their musical style and playing goals. they are not playing classical music, nor are they trying to play with that technique.

clear now?

I never said you said it.
and yes, I know exactly what you meant.
Now here is what I said: Why the hell should I play like those players if they don't know how the fingers are supposed to be used? in jazz you don't have time to carefuly check every detail of your playing, so when I said I don't think they know what they're doing, I meant that they probably never learned the classical way, and never tried working on the best way for them to play with the fingers. That results in medicore technique, even though they do have a good musical sense.
"clear now?"

[fumblefingers]

well, you can do whatever you want.

its a little bit difficult to tell where you are going with this via back and forth posts. so to clarify the discussion and eliminate all the negatives, what are you prescribing, if anything?

1. non-classical players should master classical technique, then apply it directly to non-classical styles, or
2. should work out there own system and go for it, or
3. should first master classical, then modify/simplify it to (a) suit the jazz style/feel and (b) enable adaptive responses to improvisational needs etc., or
4. something else, or
5. nothing - you're looking for answers.

[Aristotle]

One thing Jack emphasizes, that I think is fairly unique in the jazz world, is the sense of touch and dynamics, musical qualities not really emphasized in jazz, but form the basis for the various interpretative skills required of a classical player.

I wonder what that means in English.
-----

I continue to think the communication breakdown is the result of the use of the word "classical technique." Whatever that means in the thread title, nylong strings and steel don't operate quite the same way as metal strings. Right hand technique is about setting strings in motion, and stopping the motion. Unless there is a specific technical question, I can't really say there is a difference between what the opening post called "casual fingerpicking" and "classical." I don't do anything paricularly different for Beatles than I do for Bach.

If you want to fingerpick, then fingerpick. Some jazz has to be played that way, some can be played in multiple ways.

[hed_b94]

well, you can do whatever you want.

its a little bit difficult to tell where you are going with this via back and forth posts. so to clarify the discussion and eliminate all the negatives, what are you prescribing, if anything?

1. non-classical players should master classical technique, then apply it directly to non-classical styles, or
2. should work out there own system and go for it, or
3. should first master classical, then modify/simplify it to (a) suit the jazz style/feel and (b) enable adaptive responses to improvisational needs etc., or
4. something else, or
5. nothing - you're looking for answers.

1 mostly.

I think there is a little part of the technique that is a must to modify in order to IMPROVISE, mostly the part of right hand fingerings (I hope that makes sense, I just don't know the name of it- I DONT mean left hand). Other than that it's prboably best to go the classical way. Of course even in classical there are different approaches for different kind of people, but the principles are the same.


aristotle- just because you can't understand the difference doesn't mean it's not there.
There are some differences that fumble pointed out himself, I think the main one would be the sitting position. after that I will say the right hand position and attack angle.


So here's a specific for you- why do most non-classical players lower their right hand and place it as if they were playing with a pick?
Why is it better for jazz than for classical?
And why do they place their thumb so high on the neck, even when bending isn't needed at all? and play with no seperation of the left hand fingers?


I think the classical way is better for everything- Beatles and Bach, but most people don't play that way, and there are major differences between those two. If you can't see them, then you probably never learned classical and should stop posting here. If you did and just have a problem with the terms I am using, then I'll say the diffences between them is exactly the specifis I said earlier.

[oneworld]

I think the classical way is better for everything- Beatles and Bach, but most people don't play that way, and there are major differences between those two. If you can't see them, then you probably never learned classical and should stop posting here. If you did and just have a problem with the terms I am using, then I'll say the diffences between them is exactly the specifis I said earlier.

do some research to rethink your position...
i use the exact RH technique as the players below on all guitars...
fwiw... even the pujol RH approach is better suited to get the job done, if you know what i mean...

[hed_b94]

Ok, you basicly gave me two LUTISTS, and a few paintings of old baroque guitar players. Which holds the guitar completly different from the two lutists above. So yeah.....


If you show me a decent classical guitar player, that anchors his pinky (which is always bad), lowers his palm, attacks the strings with maximum-friction angle and still plays well difficult pieces beatifully - I will rethink my position


You probably mistakes 'good technique' and 'good playing'. It is possible to play with bad technique, it's just a lot harder. I think YOU should rethink your playing.

[oneworld]

1
So here's a specific for you- why do most non-classical players lower their right hand and place it as if they were playing with a pick?
Why is it better for jazz than for classical?

in the late medieval/early renaissance period that was a common RH position,
which developed out of 'Pick' (feather etc) playing... resting your pinkie on the soundboard is something you'll find in almost all stringed instruments traditions... from early blues to early classical guitar playing... check the methods/pictures of these periods... you'll see it clearly...

[hed_b94]

in the late medieval/early renaissance period that was a common RH position,
which developed out of 'Pick' (feather etc) playing... resting your pinkie on the soundboard is something you'll find in almost all stringed instruments traditions... from early blues to early classical guitar playing... check the methods/pictures of these periods... you'll see it clearly...

And yet somehow the tradition developed away from that technique... Almost like something better was found.. weird, huh?

Showing me that it was done doesn't prove anything- it's still done all over the world, even by good musicians. Still doesn't mean it's a best holding position. And check out my message above.

And luckily for me, you posted your stuff on youtube. So let me promise you this:
There is no way you could play well a whole Bach suite for lute on classical guitar with your technique.

[oneworld]

I think YOU should rethink your playing.

thanks for your concerns... but i think i'm doing quite alright...

can you show me how YOU do it ?!?

[oneworld]

There is no way you could play well a whole Bach suite for lute on classical guitar with your technique.

never said i could or would... and who wants to play Bach on guitar if you can play it on baroque lute...

but in the spirit of learning something from you, can you give me an example of yours ?

[hed_b94]

never said i could or would... and who wants to play Bach on guitar if you can play it on baroque lute...

but in the spirit of learning something from you, can you give me an example of yours ?

Please tell me you're kidding....

This thread is about guitar, and guitar technique. I don't care if you can play Bach on lute, or with your ass, because I'm talking about GUITAR technique.
So you tell me I should rethink my playing, as if yours is better FOR GUITAR, but then changing to "it's better for me". So please decide, and don't bother me.


Now for your next childish move:
My playing isn't related. And isn't even a topic of discussion here. I only replied to you talking about your technique.

[Jazzpunk]

and why do you think it wouldn't sound 'stylistically correct'? the classical technique is the "right" technique for guitar playing.

Classical technique is the 'right' technique for playing classical guitar not the 'right' technique for playing all styles of guitar. If you want to adopt this technique go for it! It's hardly a requirement for becoming a jazz guitarist though.