Playing melody in thirds, fourths, etc.

[pamosmusic]

Oh yeah all those classic etude guys do that — Sor, Giuliani, Carulli. Probably Carcassi too but never played much of him.

Ive taught this one before.

https://www.classicalguitarshed.com/...k5OS4wLjAuMA..

[AndyV]

Perhaps Barney can be of help?

[Reg]

It would be the ability to do this with any tune that I'm working with.

So, right now, I'm just practicing a little bit with D major scale harmonic thirds, 5th position: DF# (M3), EG (m3), F#A (m3), GB (M3), AC# (M3), etc. Then trying to work out the same D scale in harmonic thirds further up and down the fretboard. Hoping that I'll become accustomed to it enough that I can easily play any major scale in harmonic thirds.

As far as a tune to play: how about, "Autumn Leaves" (which I can play in Wes-style octaves, something I do all the time with tunes).

The trick is with tunes that use chromaticism, etc. and what harmonic intervals to play.

Yea... so this is how you start. Your playing Diatonic 3rds in Dmaj. Scale, (Ionian).
Just for info. Your 1st finger defines what position your in. Playing 3rds as you described above generally requires changing positions.... which is again how you start.

Next... play the same pattern of 3rds... but using different scale.... Dmin. Dorian, then another scale etc...

Obviously you need to KNOW your scales. And these are technical exercises.

As far as playing tunes or "notes" that you don't understand what they are or how they function in a tune.
That is more complicated and requires understanding how to make an analysis of a tune. The analysis is just how you decide how the Melody and the Chords are working together within the "Tune".

You can just do this by ear or trial and error approaches...but it takes years to get your library of Plug and Play collection of Analysis of Tunes together. And generally most never get it together.

As compared to learning the theory of Analysis, which takes a year or two. Notes you might be thinking or hearing as chromatic etc... generally are just part of the harmony reflected by the Tune and Style your playing that Tune in.

Using chromatic approach is generally more of a Vanilla harmonic approach, a choice but more of an effect.

It takes time.... but it just will never happen without going through the technical process...

If you want to get it together... I'll help when I can. I got all this BS together decades ago. There are really no short cuts and you generally need help educating your ears...

[Kirk Garrett]

Here’s the full Barney video:

[ragman1]

It would be the ability to do this with any tune that I'm working with.

Of course it would. But my point always was that the quickest way to get this is to apply it to something, work with it. There's a limit to endless exercises.

All right, take Autumn Leaves. Can you hear where a two-note sound would be good? Experiment with it. Also remember that you should use different intervals for different places, not just use all thirds or all sixths. Use what is the best sound at the right place. And you don't need to put them in on every note, just where it's effective.

See, one problem here is that I, or rather we, don't really know where you are with it, what you can already do and where you're at. Using octaves is a good start and now you need to vary it. Can you read music?

What key are you playing AL in? Probably Em... and you're practicing in D. Move to G and remember that Em has a D#.

The trick is with tunes that use chromaticism, etc. and what harmonic intervals to play.

Steady, one thing at a time :-)

[pamosmusic]

Steady, one thing at a time :-)

Valid question though ... take Autumn Leaves. First phrase in the bridge has a little chromatic approach note. So if we're working on a tune, it does help to have the tools on hand.

[pamosmusic]

PS. Take this, but don't it throw you... yet :-)

What interval is that F# and C? It's your exam!

This is a bit of a different thing.

Better (and more easily) understood as rootless shells, a la Ed Bickert. Just search his name (or rootless shell) in the JGO search tab and go to town.

[ragman1]

PS. Take this, but don't let it throw you... yet :-)

What interval is that F# and C? It's your exam!

[ragman1]

Valid question though ... take Autumn Leaves. First phrase in the bridge has a little chromatic approach note. So if we're working on a tune, it does help to have the tools on hand.

But if you're working with the chords, which is what's really happening, it's the connecting chord tones that matter, not what kind of interval it is. If you come to the B7 then you can't help but put the D# in.

As for the chromatic rundown, I'd say that's the same thing - if you're going to use two-note punches for that. Which I'm not sure I would, personally. It's not about comping with shells.

[ragman1]

Listen to the punches. Of course, Bill's doing it quick and modern so take it with a pinch of salt :-)

[Bobby Timmons]

Here’s the full Barney video:

Good lesson, can't go wrong with Barney! I've never thought to approach chord melody by number of voices. I'll have to start doing that. The first thing he said was chord melody sort of implies that you need to use a different chord for each melody note, but that isn't true so he likes to call it harmonic treatment. Exactly what I've been saying but noone listens to me. :P

[ragman1]

no one listens to me. :P

I do. I listen to everybody. It's an addiction

[pamosmusic]

As for the chromatic rundown, I'd say that's the same thing - if you're going to use two-note punches for that. Which I'm not sure I would, personally. It's not about comping with shells.

For what it’s worth, in your recording, you are comping with shells.

I’m also talking about notes in the melody that are chromatic in that they don’t come from the chord or scale and require a different strategy than harmonizing with a third or sixth from the scale.

I was referring earlier to the D# in m16

[Bobby Timmons]

I do. I listen to everybody. It's an addiction.

I listened to your advice to listen to the Sinatra versions of tunes when you're learning them because he sticks to the exact melody.

[ragman1]

For what it’s worth, in your recording, you are comping with shells.

I was copying what most arrangements do which is insert those chord punches. I don't call that comping and I don't call two-note voicings shell voicings. You might, I don't. Shell voicings are R-3-7 and take the place of chords.

I’m also talking about notes in the melody that are chromatic in that they don’t come from the chord or scale and require a different strategy than harmonizing with a third or sixth from the scale.

I was referring earlier to the D# in m16

Don't tell me, tell the OP. It's his party, not mine. I don't care :-)

[ragman1]

I listened to your advice to listen to the Sinatra versions of tunes when you're learning them because he sticks to the exact melody.

Gosh, that was a long time ago. Is that the only one?

[pamosmusic]

I was copying what most arrangements do which is insert those chord punches. I don't call that comping and I don't call two-note voicings shell voicings. You might, I don't. Shell voicings are R-3-7 and take the place of chords.

Rootless shells. So R 3 7 without the R.

Ed Bickert calls it comping, for whatever that's worth.

[Bobby Timmons]

Gosh, that was a long time ago. Is that the only one?

The only piece of advice I've taken from you? Probably not.

[Christian Miller]

Rootless shells. So R 3 7 without the R.

Ed Bickert calls it comping, for whatever that's worth.

Some people call shells 1-3 or 1-7 I notice…

I call 3-7s guide tones? But some people use the term for something else.


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[Christian Miller]

For what it’s worth, in your recording, you are comping with shells.

I’m also talking about notes in the melody that are chromatic in that they don’t come from the chord or scale and require a different strategy than harmonizing with a third or sixth from the scale.

I was referring earlier to the D# in m16

I’m confused on ragman’s behalf. The melody is E minor at that point? You’d use harmonic or melodic minor as required.


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[pamosmusic]

Some people call shells 1-3 or 1-7 I notice…

I call 3-7s guide tones? But some people use the term for something else.


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Point being it’s effectively chord stabs and not really what the OP is asking about.

[pamosmusic]

I’m confused on ragman’s behalf. The melody is E minor at that point? You’d use harmonic or melodic minor as required.


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I guess six of one in that instance … how about something like All of Me, if we’re sticking to the first few pages in the real book

[ragman1]

Point being it’s effectively chord stabs and not really what the OP is asking about.

I agree. What he actually said was:

Playing a melody in thirds, fourths, and various intervals is something I'm very interested in doing

But he also references jazz. We're not (presumably) talking about playing Careless Love or Amazing Grace using a lot of sixths and thirds. Which isn't hard but not jazz. It could be jazz but not in its simple form.

So he has to be clear. As I said before, we don't know exactly where he is with the guitar. Maybe he should play Amazing Grace or something just as simple so he can get off the ground with this.

But, of course, there are very few tunes where you're going to play the whole thing using intervals. He probably ought to start learning chord melody of which intervals are a basic part (rather than just intervals by themselves). Or, indeed, classical guitar.

In fact, I'm going to tell him that when he comes back!

[Reg]

The approach... "learning how to play jazz tunes, in a jazz style with out learning the Skills to do so approach",

leads to ... Not being able to play jazz tunes in a jazz style.

Not really great advice

Here's a simple example of "Autumn" with simple intervals of "A" section. Boring, simple would never use.... but is example of using simple intervals with organization... not good or bad, but with use of organization of shape using intervals to imply Tune...using 3rds and 6ths , a 5th and a tri-tone.

pickup
X X 5 X 5 X
X X 7 X 7 X
X X 9 X 8 X
tune
--------------
X X X 9 X 8
-------------
X X X X 8 10
X X X X 7 10
-------------
X X 4 X 3 X
X X 5 X 5 X
X X 7 X 7 X
-------------
X X X 7 X 7
-------------
X X 7 X 7 X
X X 9 X 8 X
-------------
X X X 5 5 X
X X X 7 7 X
X X X 9 8 X
-------------
X X X 11 10 X
--------------
X X X 9 X 8
X X X 8 X 7
-------------
X X X 4 4 X
X X X 6 5 X
X X X 8 7 X
-------------
X X X 6 8 X

[Christian Miller]

I guess six of one in that instance … how about something like All of Me, if we’re sticking to the first few pages in the real book

What am I being asked again?


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