Playing melody in thirds, fourths, etc.

[pauln]

I'm actually (for real) working on an idea I came up with a few years ago, "Everything You Need to Get Started With Jazz Guitar."

"Tuning the Guitar (Beginner to Advanced Techniques)" would be an important book; few guitarists I've met have a clear conception of it. As far as your "Everything... " pamphlet, I've thought many times of just that, but every time I end up wanting to call it "Everything You Were Told You Need to Get Started With Jazz Guitar Was Wrong".

[lydian_dorian]

How dare you.

Pachelbel's Canon. Bach would never ....

Yes, you're right, of course.

After all this time, Bach keeps getting credit for other people's compositions. I have a piano book that has "Bach's" Minuet in G Major.

[AllanAllen]

Major scale in all positions across the neck.

Then go by thirds. Then go by triads. Then go by 7th chords.

Six months later you’ll be harmonizing no problem by ear.

[lydian_dorian]

lydian_dorian -

Would you mind showing us what the melody is that you want to harmonise? Is it well known or one of yours?

Also, what style is it in? I'm asking because the guy in your video at 7.40 is playing sixths in what sounds like a country-type way. So the style is going to dictate what intervals you use.

Don't forget this is a jazz forum and these guys can theory you till your brain bleeds. But if all you're asking is how to make a fairly simple tune prettier then really it's no big deal. First play the tune without intervals and you should be able to hear when you need an extra boost on it and of what kind.

So let's hear the melody and I'll show you how you can do it. And it won't be difficult or a question of memorising anything, it's just a matter of what suits.

Incidentally, if you don't actually have a melody yet then you must find one. You'll only learn this by applying intervals to something concrete. You won't learn it by wallowing in a lot of abstract theory. So find a tune if you don't already have one.

I cited the wrong time in the video. He's playing two notes at a time start at the 14:08 mark.

Ultimately, I'd like to figure this out for any piece I want to play, like this example, though he's doing more than just playing intervals:

[ragman1]

I cited the wrong time in the video. He's playing two notes at a time start at the 14:08 mark.

It's the same thing, doesn't matter. He's just moving up the scale using notes a sixth apart. Which, of course, you can do with any interval. It's very easy to do at that level but complex jazz pieces (like James) need a lot of know-how to negotiate effectively.

[Mick-7]

Hi, all. Glad to be here.

Playing a melody in thirds, fourths, and various intervals is something I'm very interested in doing. However, I'm really just guessing and winging it whenever I try it.

Are there books or videos which explain the exact way to harmonize major, minor, modal scales as thirds and cadence fourths, both ascending and descending (because I discover that resolving a melody might require either a third or a fourth, depending in which direction the melody is ending up.)

It's not rocket science, just harmonize those scales in 3rds and 4ths (6ths are nice too) and practice them. And see the attached files on chord patterns I wrote - I'm half way to a book.

[alltunes]

Hi, all. Glad to be here.

Playing a melody in thirds, fourths, and various intervals is something I'm very interested in doing. However, I'm really just guessing and winging it whenever I try it.

Are there books or videos which explain the exact way to harmonize major, minor, modal scales as thirds and cadence fourths, both ascending and descending (because I discover that resolving a melody might require either a third or a fourth, depending in which direction the melody is ending up.)

Having a looper, a pencil and some staff paper along with the ability to write music will be a big help. As everyone has mentioned at the end of the day it is what sounds best to your ear. Having the ability to document your ideas on paper will be invaluable. Looping your original melody and then trying your harmonies priceless. I also have a lot of luck using music notation software to document and try my ideas.


This book has a chapter on harmonizing a melody which is what I think you are looking for.

Music Theory For Modern Mandolin by Thomas P. Ohmson | eBay

I used to own the book but I remember that the author was very specific and has mapped out some “rules”. Basically the approach was thirds but he gave suggestions as to how to adjust the interval when a third did not sound right. i.e. a fourth, an octave etc.

If you post over at the mandolincafe.com someone might be willing to copy that chapter for you.

A quick google search turned up this

11.1 Introduction to Harmonizing a Melody: Tutorial – Comprehensive Musicianship, A Practical Resource

How to Harmonize a Melody in 6 Easy Steps (For Beginners)

a YT

and so on

[AllanAllen]

See, this is my point. This is all very well but how do you apply it to a tune? Not that I don't know, I do, but what is someone who doesn't know going to do?

Let's have a tutorial on that.

What tune would you like?

[pamosmusic]

What tune would you like?

It’s not that he doesn’t know, he does.

[bako]

Parallel interval scales will be useful but perhaps a more direct path to what you are seeking is to practice dyad arpeggios.

C

CE EG GC in 3rds and 4ths
EC GE CG in 6ths and 5ths

or with a fixed note

CE CG CC
EG EC EE
GC GE GG

major and minor triads are made up of the same intervallic DNA inverted.
ma3, m3, P4 // m6, ma6, P5

augmented all ma3 or m6
diminished triad m3 b5 or ma6 #4

4 note and larger structures expand the content exponentially

C7

CE EG GBb BbC
CG EBb GC BbE
CBb EC GE BbG

CE CG CBb CC
EG EBb EC EE
GBb GC GE GG
BbC BbE BbG BbBb

Similar to practicing arpeggios to establish confidence locating chord tones within a scale context for single line playing, dyad arpeggios can help do the same for double note melodies.

Basically your ear will guide you as some suggest but if you seek the understanding route then what harmony does a given interval represent within the harmony of the moment.
One thing to be aware of is that just as there are passing notes in single note melody there are also passing chordal sounds implied by intervals.

Fun area of exploration.

[ragman1]

What tune would you like?

I wouldn't. It's the OP who wants to do this, not me. Read back where I said to him he needs a tune to apply it to (I doubt if it would be a quartal tune at this stage).

I actually have a feeling he's not sure what he wants yet. Not precisely anyway.

[AllanAllen]

I wouldn't. It's the OP who wants to do this, not me. Read back where I said to him he needs a tune to apply it to (I doubt if it would be a quartal tune at this stage).

I actually have a feeling he's not sure what he wants yet. Not precisely anyway.

Oh, I get what you’re saying now. Carry on…

[Reg]

Generally most would label this arranging a melody.

You need a melody or some type of lead line to start with....and then either implied harmony, changes or chords.

Generally you also need to either be able to make an analysis of the music... or just use your ears as to what the melody with changes within a Form implies.

You then add a 2nd line to work with the starting melody which reflect the harmony from either your analysis or someones. Or just what your ear thinks sounds good. The added line should support the Melody not become take away from. This has all been worked out... and your ears sometimes will change as you musically develop your skills.

Its really fairly mechanical.... almost plug and play like.

Use of diatonic 3rds or 6ths... is the somewhat default standard. The type of 3rds and 6ths reflects the implied harmony.

For developing the skill.... start by playing scales with an added note a diatonic 6th below the scale note.

Ex. Cmaj. C D E F G A B C with harmony line below a diatonic 6th

X X 2 X 1 X ... Min 6th
X X 3 X 3 X ... Maj 6th
X X 5 X 5 X ... Maj 6th
X X X 2 X 1 ... Min 6th
X X X 4 X 3 ... Min 6th
X X X 5 X 5 ... Maj 6th
X X X 7 X 7 ... Maj 6th
X X X 9 X 8 ... Min 6th

Or with harmony line above or on top above a diatonic 3rd

X X X 5 5 X ...Maj 3rd
X X X 7 6 X ...Min 3rd
X X X 9 8 X ...Min 3rd
X X X X 6 5 ...Maj 3rd
X X X X 8 7 ...Maj 3rd
X X X X 10 8 ...Min 3rd
X X X X 12 10 ...Min 3rd
X X X X 13 12 ...Maj 3rd

[rpjazzguitar]

There's a related idea I've usually heard called "moving a chord through a scale".

So, for example, you start with a Cmaj7 chord (C E G B) and move it through the Cmaj scale (C D E F G A B).

Suppose you start with x3543x (that's fret number starting from the low E). Then, you move each note to the next note, on the same string, in the C scale.

So, that C on the A string moves to the next note, D. The G on the D string moves up to an A. And so on. You end up with x5755x. And you do that for 5 more voicings.

The OP is asking about the same sort of thing, but with only two notes.

Take All of Me. Two bars of Cmaj7 followed by E7. You pick your melodic line and put a note below the first note of the line. If the melody is a C, maybe you put an A below it. Then, as you move forward in the line, you're moving the C to other notes in the C scale and you're moving the A, also to other notes in the C scale, maintaining the same intervallic relationship. If you move the C two notes to E, you move the A two notes to C. Like that.

Then, when you get to the E7, you have some choices. The simplest thing is simply to raise the G to a G# in your scale thinking. Continue doing the same thing as before, but this time, change all the Gs to G#s. That makes the scale C D E F G# A B. Or, if you want to unnecessarily complicate your thinking, it's A harmonic minor, fifth mode.

The next chord is A7. This time, you have to raise the C to C# and, arguably, the F to F#. So, you make those adjustments and continue as before.

[Mick-7]

Playing a melody in thirds, fourths, and various intervals is something I'm very interested in doing.

Attached is a guide to using 4th chord voicings I wrote up ages ago, with an example of using them to harmonize the tune Little Sunflower.

[Reg]

Hi, all. Glad to be here.

Playing a melody in thirds, fourths, and various intervals is something I'm very interested in doing. However, I'm really just guessing and winging it whenever I try it.

Are there books or videos which explain the exact way to harmonize major, minor, modal scales as thirds and cadence fourths, both ascending and descending (because I discover that resolving a melody might require either a third or a fourth, depending in which direction the melody is ending up.)

Isn't this what he's looking for.... Playing a Melody with Various Intervals.

His comments about what intervals and resolving a Melody is obviously not where one starts. Hell most good players have difficulty playing a harmony 2nd part for most melodies. Not so much understanding how to do it.... just having the chops LOL. At least like on the spot... live when a tube is called. Unless they have something worked out previously.

Anyway Diatonic 3rds and 6ths are generally where one starts. keeping it diatonically constant structurally with 3rds or 6ths. And yes as one gets better performing in this style... you can begin to add more musical organization.

[Reg]

Attached is a guide to using 4th chord voicings I wrote up ages ago, with an example of using them to harmonize the tune Little Sunflower.

Yea Mick7... cool voicings ... but not where one starts. Back in the 60s and early 70s....we played the shit out voicing in 4ths or quartal voicings.... and all the Pentatonics.... burnin...LOL I don't have the chops anymore.

[lydian_dorian]

I wouldn't. It's the OP who wants to do this, not me. Read back where I said to him he needs a tune to apply it to (I doubt if it would be a quartal tune at this stage).

I actually have a feeling he's not sure what he wants yet. Not precisely anyway.

It would be the ability to do this with any tune that I'm working with.

So, right now, I'm just practicing a little bit with D major scale harmonic thirds, 5th position: DF# (M3), EG (m3), F#A (m3), GB (M3), AC# (M3), etc. Then trying to work out the same D scale in harmonic thirds further up and down the fretboard. Hoping that I'll become accustomed to it enough that I can easily play any major scale in harmonic thirds.

As far as a tune to play: how about, "Autumn Leaves" (which I can play in Wes-style octaves, something I do all the time with tunes).

The trick is with tunes that use chromaticism, etc. and what harmonic intervals to play.

[Bobby Timmons]

The trick is with tunes that use chromaticism, etc. and what harmonic intervals to play.

If there's chromaticism, just follow the chords. You need to know how to follow the chords in jazz anyway.

[pamosmusic]

If there's chromaticism, just follow the chords. You need to know how to follow the chords in jazz anyway.

With chords that don't fit the key, etc.

With half step chromaticism, you can use the same interval you're using for the nearest diatonic note.

So like in D major, if you're playing D#, then E, you can do a minor third up to the D# (C and Eb, or god help us B# and D# --- up to C# and E)

[Mick-7]

Yea Mick7... cool voicings ... but not where one starts. Back in the 60s and early 70s....we played the shit out voicing in 4ths or quartal voicings.... and all the Pentatonics.... burnin...LOL I don't have the chops anymore.

I know what you mean, I often used to come up with stuff I could never play at a speed anyone would want to hear unless I pulled a Les Paul, i.e., recorded it and sped up the recording. I try to avoid getting beyond my skis like that now.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, you're right, of course.

After all this time, Bach keeps getting credit for other people's compositions. I have a piano book that has "Bach's" Minuet in G Major.

Bach == all baroque music

Apparently

[Christian Miller]

With chords that don't fit the key, etc.

With half step chromaticism, you can use the same interval you're using for the nearest diatonic note.

So like in D major, if you're playing D#, then E, you can do a minor third up to the D# (C and Eb, or god help us B# and D# --- up to C# and E)

I was thinking of all those 19th century classical guitar pieces that do stuff like that. There's a few by Guiliani that I've taught for early grade guitar exams.

[grahambop]

Sor has studies which specifically play melodies in thirds, sixths etc.

[Christian Miller]

Sor has studies which specifically play melodies in thirds, sixths etc.

Yeah that's probably been recycled in the ABRSM stuff. The later grades have a lot of that.

@ the OP....

With the mention of cadential 6/4 chords and so on on this thread, I would say that mastering intervals on the fretboard is a prerequisite for a study of figured bass. If the latter is of interest, I would recommend (as was recommended to me by Mr MacKillop) Peter Croton's figured bass for classical guitar. It's a classic.

But if the students primary interest is jazz harmony... I would also recommend learning the intervals all over the neck haha.

It's sort of really helpful for everything?

Maybe take a look at Van Eps. His first book is relatively accessible - basically straightforward but attractive harmonisations of the octave (an old way to teach practical harmony). His later book (Harmonic Mechanisms) is a lot more exhaustive. Ted Greene's stuff is legendary and aside form his books there's a mountain of resources on his website.

Basic harmonisations in jazz can be done in a number of different ways, but parallel harmonisation in intervals form the predominant key, later mechanical voicings/block chords and then eventually intervallic stuff through modes or Barry Harris approaches (whatever floats your boat) is a good way to go.

Counterpoint between bass and melody, also very helpful. Two part stuff (Kreisberg and Martin Taylor both teach this.)

Study Bach.

Honing ones ears and muscle memory to access good sounding harmonisations intuitively is more important than theory