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I always wondered this....CM is considered jazz, and jazz is considered improvisation. Plus, I've seen far to many piano players sit down with a chart and do a similar thing to CM but on their instrument with little/no prep. So, can it be done on guitar? Is that the point? I love CMs, but it'll be years (read: decades) before I could ever improvise one. I should maybe start doing arrangements as CMs of the ballads I've played with my band...
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04-04-2010 07:18 PM
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Course it can.As long as you know the chord sequence, you're flying. If you can read a lead sheet it's even easier. Don't you ever sit down and noodle with the guitar and you'll hit a few notes that sound like a song you know, and just start playing the melody line?
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Yeah, a little bit, but I meant more the "combining melody and chords while not breaking fingers or guitar in the process yet also making the whole thing sound like a composition in the way it develops in complexity/dynamics/harmonic interest/etc over time" kinda thing. Like, i listen to someone like Martin Taylor and think "is he really improvising all of that?!?"
I have little chord connections, fills, etc., that I use when it fits a particular tune, but it just seems like they either have massively great ears, or a vast body of knowledge similar to mine (only vaster, much), or a combination of both to be doing that on the fly.
It doesn't help things that those guys never lose the rhythm either, whereas I invariably hit a bad chord or screw up the rhythm very quickly if I try to improvise this stuff.
So what's my way forward? Sit down and start writing some properly (i.e. they sound good but aren't improvised - it's combining those two that really gets me right now...), while stockpiling ideas for future improv experimentations?
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oh....and must I always put the melody on top? and can I displace the melody by octaves if that helps keep it on top? thx.
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I'd make a distinction about pure improvisation and rehearsed improvisation. He probably knows the song backwards, and is improvising bits of a song he already knows well.
My advice is to practice doing it. Start with something simple-like row,row,row the boat-seriously. Even Spock can do that! Then go to Frere Jaque and work your way up from there. Start simple. Then get a jazz song you know well, and have a fakebook for. Voice the chords so that the top note of the chord is where the melody would be at the time. you'll probably only have to do a couple of notes that don't have part of the melody on them per bar. Just use the bog standard fakebook chords. Once you can do that, start embelishing-it will come to you.
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Scrybe,
Are you asking:
1. if you can do song form improvisations with the melodies harmonized
2. if you can spontaneously create an arrangement at sight from a chart or from a song that you have never played but know by ear
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Both, eventually. But starting with (2) (largely because I think I'll have to really work to develop 2 if I want to ever be able to do 1. And I really want to be able to do 1 one day. And 2 as well).
At the moment, my ear, technique, and general knowledge of the FB and where voicings are etc, are all too weak to do either of these. But I want to know how close to the realms of possibility they are if I work really hard to get them down. Also, is a good way to start developing these skills to spend time creating my own CMs in a 'composed' way (slowly) now? Ideally, I'd like to develop to a point where I can do both of them on the fly though.
(not a big ask, is it? lol)
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Joe Pass seemed to be able to do that. And I rarely play a tune the same way twice myself. But I know a great many chords, fills, and licks, and can call on them as needed. So in answer to your question, yes it can be done.
Originally Posted by Scrybe
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I think it may be quite difficult to do it all along without performing a little rehearsal previously... anyway... IMO it seems to be the same if we thought about playing lines related to a song we have known yet.
As said, probably improvisation over chord melody may come as a result of knowing every chord related to certain tonality as well as inversions, substitutions, "passing chords"... stuff like that...
Everyday is growing my desire to understand music and that is the reason why I came to jazz... there is a whole different world around here that remains the same at the end of the day... the final idea is to unmask the paths of the soul by walking trough sound ambiences...
Bueno, me van a disculpar pero el spikinglirsch no es mi idioma nativo
Saludines desde Santiago de Chile!!!
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I'm considering Blame It On My Youth as a possible candidate for my inaugral attempt at composing (read as "try hard to improvise, then keep the bits I like....until I'm done. Then maybe tweak a little more") a CM. I'll post either audio or score, or both when I've done it. I was playing through the head a little earlier (I have the melody and chord chart for it) and think it might be doable. If my methods are unorthodox, it's probably easier to spot in a piece than me asking a ton of questions and not ever doing anything. Thanks for all the replies, both here and by PM - I'll be working off those and my own skills and general playing experience (limited) while I do this one.
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Improvising a Chord Melody simply just takes a lot of practice and knowledge of Harmony, Progression and having it down on your instrument.
A good practice method to eventually learn this is to work on Chord voicings for each chord quality where you have resting on top every tone from the chord including extention.
Through this you're able to voice a chord with any note on top for a melody. Although You don't need to have the melody on top for every chord, not every chord needs to be the same density and you don' thave to put a chord under every note.
It might seem to be a daunting task, but it just takes time, and then... wham you're just looking at tunes and playing harmonized passages for it
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Having done certain things (like taking the "E" note on the 2nd string, fifth fret and harmonizing it all keys as the top voice--i,e., CM7, FM7, Bb7b5, Eb7b9, Ab7#5, Dbm7, Gb7, B11, E7, Am7, D9, G13) My teacher has started a systematic program for me on this front:
Having already practiced the ii-V-Is on the 1st 4 strings in all 12 keys in 4 inversion forms, learn the same for the minor ii-V-is (ii7b5-v7-im6). AND
learn to harmonize the scale diatonically in triads in all 12 keys with triads with the 1 on top, 3 on top and with the 5 on top (find these top notes on the applicable 1st 2 strings). So, in C:
CM, Dm, Em, FM, GM, Am, Bm, CM
Better yet, write these out in Finale (in all 12 keys, with the inversions), which I have done.
He recommends doing this and getting it down cold FIRST in all 12 keys (or as he often states, "make sure you're not out for beer as you go from chord to chord") before working on chord melodies proper.
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Absolutely.
The key is knowing as many inversions as you can--which just takes time.
When I play solo, the heads are somewhat "arranged," sort of a shell that I can play around with a bit as I go, but it initially it's "figured out."
When i go into the improvised choruses, I essentially slowly devolve out of the melody and into the changes--but the melody is always the guide...
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The most comprehensive method I have been exposed to for really learning CM comes from Jody Fisher. Here is his advice:
- Learn the melody in every 5-6 fret area on the guitar. Then learn it by 4 string set. This yields 6 areas
- Take these same areas, and write out every chord possibility you know for the chords in the tune.
- Practice the CM in each area, one at a time.
I can now play ATTYA anywhere on the board, and never play it the same way twice. I have yet to do this with another tune, but Jody says that each time you do this, the time gets shorter, and after a while, you see all the same changes, and you can put one together pretty quickly.
VERY time intensive, but it is amazing what this did for my playing. Good luck with it.Last edited by derek; 04-05-2010 at 12:26 PM.
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Some good suggestions. Everything that strengthens the foundation will certainly help.
Questions for Derek,
I'm curious about the parameters and limitations imposed.
Did you do all the string set possibilities or just the most commonly used?
String sets of 4 notes:
6543
5432
4321
6432
5321
6532
5421
6542
5431
6541
6531
6431
6421
6321
Did you use extensions and alterations, approach chords and subs or just interpret the symbols on the chart?
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Scybe,
Another possible approach. Solo arrangements for guitar are built up of varying ratios of different orchestration elements.
1. melody
2. bass line
3. chords (rhythm guitar)
4. harmonized melody (2 or more notes)
5. groove elements
6. counter melody/obligato
Work on any or all of these separately. Then try to combine 2 or more at once. Because of a limited supply of fingers and strings something will frequently have to be simplified.
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The easiest way to start is to begin simply, but this requires fingerstyle: play the melody as written, and play the bass notes where they fall in the music with the thumb from the root progression (chord symbols). So, you have (1) top voice; (2) root progression.
Inner voices can be added to taste.
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Originally Posted by bako
Sorry, I should have said adjacent string sets. If you include nonadjacent, that would really muck things up. Yes, I used extended/altered chords, and diatonic subs. Didn't mess with passing chords, unless written in the chart. I got to mid20's to mid30's in each region without adding subs. Just using extensions, inversions and altered chords. I printed out sheets of chord grids I have in pdf form, 3 hole punched them and was off.Last edited by derek; 04-05-2010 at 03:03 PM.
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@NSJ:
Thank you so much man!!!!
I have been thinking about these ideas all the day and a while ago I came home took my guitar and started to pick some chord with E 2nd string on top... and guess what? everything started to make sense!!!
No joke!!! I could remember a REH video with Joe Pass talking about the same thing... but I watched that about 2 or 3 years ago... and It just made me click since I read this post...
Tomorrow I will try every playable chord with A on 1st string...
After that I will keep going with those inversions and ii-V-Is
I am so happy because today (in fact, tonight) i felt my mind was expanded in a new way of thinking of music... ok... I have been thinking in a deep manner about all this theoretical stuff and reading all your suggestions and valuable comments have helped me to understand what I needed to keep growing in music...
Hasta mañana y buenas noches
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Rino,
I love it when the mental "light bulb" blinks on when learning new concepts. It makes all the work worth while.
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They ought to make a saying out of this. Maybe something like "let the melody be your guide". Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I love the spinal Tap on Jazz, very funny.....( nice playing Jeff)...
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Derek, Originally Posted by derek
I meant to ask, but why do you say using non adjacent voicings would muck things up. I can understand setting limitations in the context of a particular exercise but can see only gain in learning to use non adjacent string voicings as well.
Thanks,
Bako
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Well, Jody's approach is comprehensive enough. I mean, I came up with hundreds of choices just using his 6 regions, and I spent 2 months + on just one tune. If you add non adjacent string sets, It might be a while before you have enough tunes for a solo set. I am thinking 5 years or so. Originally Posted by bako
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Hey scribe... I play chord melodies all the time. I did a duo gig last night with a vocalist. My first time through was basically the the melody voiced , counter lines, etc... I make it a point to not memorize but to play the tune as I hear it for the gig. ...Got to go....tonight's gig is actually jazz... I'll add more later...Reg
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Thanks Reg, and to everyone else who posted. I'm gonna start working on my first chord melody mainly using the Jody Fisher method that derek outlined, and then take it from there. I might do my second one following another method (e.g. bako's suggestion) and work through that way, until I'm a little clearer on how to go with this.
I always felt I was being very hacky in my approach before - I'd learned a few tricks like vaguely faking a walking bass line, and knowing certain chord connections I can use, but I want to work on this on a regular basis so I'll be solid on it in a few years.
It's a little frustrating - jazz and blues were the styles of music I loved when I first began playing. A combination of not knowing anyone who was into that, and not having internet (nor many muso friends who could e.g. recommend good books to me or stuff) meant I never progressed with it and ended up playing loads of grungey stuff instead. I wish I'd managed to really develop on all this earlier, and it made learning guitar frustrating and rife with bad habits I'm having to correct now, but I'm glad I'm on the right path with it all. Can't wait til this time next year, when I can see some solid overall improvements tho - right now I feel like a total hack. And come next year, I'm sure I'll have the next lot of goals to be progressing towards, too. :-)
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