The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Yes, Reg, you're right about the G - my bad. Sorry I just took a quick look at a lead sheet, saw the note in the top space (on Cmaj7), without noticing it was bass clef... (duh Clearly I don't know this tune as well as I should...)

    BTW, though, it's B7#5 and Bb13 - that gives the G in both cases. Clearly (then) harmonising the melody was the reason for those alterations/extensions.
    The dom7s themselves - as I think you said - can be seen as tritone subs, or at least the Bb13 can (for E7alt).
    Last edited by JonR; 10-05-2012 at 12:49 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Monk... is a turnaround... simply the physical location... or are there other considerations...
    I hear what you're saying Reg and I'll respectfully disagree with you. At that point in the form, the song isn't turning around, it's still moving forward. I was taught that the phrase that leads from one section of the form to another is a cadence and that the turnaround ends the form and returns to the top. We simply have two ways of looking at the same thing.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    I hear what you're saying Reg and I'll respectfully disagree with you. At that point in the form, the song isn't turning around, it's still moving forward. I was taught that the phrase that leads from one section of the form to another is a cadence and that the turnaround ends the form and returns to the top. We simply have two ways of looking at the same thing.
    So it's a simple physical location thing... Where and who taught you and about what music... If I give you page numbers from Groves, dictionary of music as well as dictionary of jazz... would that be enough to maybe change your opinion. Do you really refer to chordal patterns as cadences when they set up any section of any form... that would be great at gig.

    The same set of changes used....at end of a tune...are a turnaround only when they return to the top of tune... what if the tune has a intro that's part of the form... or goes to a solo section... an interlude...this is a little silly, I could give tons of examples where the physical location concept breaks down.

    We're not looking at the same thing... I'm talking about jazz, Green Dolphin ST...right, not contrapuntal music from hundreds of years ago.
    I'll check in later... this is cool, I'll post some turnarounds... and we can decide which ones are cadences and which are real "turnarounds"

    Reg

  5. #29

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    Re turnarounds, I was made aware of their uses [beyond getting back to the top] by David Baker's book Jazz Improvisation.

    Baker offers various purposes for what he calls Turnbacks.

    1 The composition calls for that progression.
    2 The last two bars of one section of a tune consists of a tonic chord and the first beat of the next section is also a a tonic chord.
    3 To add forward motion in an inactive flat patch in the harmony of a tune.

    ....The third example could be used to rationalize what's happening in the
    situation that we're dealing with here.

    In fact isn't one of the main stand points of jazz harmony the use of
    forward motion?....anything to avoid a vacuum.
    I like Howard Rees' words: "As I see it either one becomes a becomes a
    chord "hitter" or a chord "mover".
    [Rees is the Barry Harris inspired pianist, writing in the intro to Alan Kingstone's Harmonic Method for Guitar]

  6. #30

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    Hey Moonray...
    Great references, Although I dig Howards metaphors for hitters, the traditional player who plays jazz tunes and the mover... much better representation of what playing jazz is, at least metaphorically... I'm not a big fan of Harris method... I have been through and understand the concepts... just don't like the mechanics, or the resulting sound. I still totally dig Harris, and all he does...

    Don't hear many using... Baker's ?..term Turnback much anymore. Sometimes in reference reading etc...never performing.

    Your point about motion is much more relevant... even in stagnant harmony there is movement. Not always with tonal, can be with modal concepts... anyway

    I understand western classical theory and terms, but they don't always apply to jazz concepts and usage of musical term, hell they don't really apply to much of late Romanticism, Impressionism and 20th century tonal music. I get carried away with the obvious sometimes... Man I got to go... work. Would dig hearing more of your views etc... I have doubles Sat and Sun... will check in when I can..
    Reg

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    So it's a simple physical location thing... Where and who taught you and about what music... If I give you page numbers from Groves, dictionary of music as well as dictionary of jazz... would that be enough to maybe change your opinion. Do you really refer to chordal patterns as cadences when they set up any section of any form... that would be great at gig.

    The same set of changes used....at end of a tune...are a turnaround only when they return to the top of tune... what if the tune has a intro that's part of the form... or goes to a solo section... an interlude...this is a little silly, I could give tons of examples where the physical location concept breaks down.

    We're not looking at the same thing... I'm talking about jazz, Green Dolphin ST...right, not contrapuntal music from hundreds of years ago.
    I'll check in later... this is cool, I'll post some turnarounds... and we can decide which ones are cadences and which are real "turnarounds"

    Reg
    Reg,
    I"m always willing to listen to what someone has to say. By all means, post page numbers and I'll be happy to take the time to look them up. As to where I learned most of what I know about theory, It was from Sarah Vaughn's pianist, Carl Schroeder. While you're looking for your Grove's, here's what my Harvard Dictionary of Music says about cadences.

    "Cadence-A melodic or harmonic formula that occurs at the end of a composition, a section or a phrase, conveying the impression of a momentary or permanent conclusion."

  8. #32

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    Turnaround, turnback. In jazz, a passage occurring at the end of one section of a form leading harmonically or melodically to the next, especially to the repetition of the section or of the entire form...--the new harvard dictionary of music...

  9. #33

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    Hey Monk... yea I remember Carl back in late 70's and 80's down in LA, I was teaching at UCLA. So Carl taught you to use term Cadence or Channel to refer to series of chords... a Chord pattern... at end of section of music... in a jazz tune which gets you back to beginning or next section. Not that common in actual usage... maybe in composition. Somewhat a stretch, but OK.

    I found your reference in older Harvard dictionary of music...mainly deals with Western Classical tradition and the latest reference to actual music was late 1800's... from development of harmonic vocabulary, composition of novelty and modal cadences, again all with reference to Western Classical tradition. That article ends with, "Unfortunately the classification and terminology in this area lack uniformity and frequently also clarity." Now that resonates.

    I also have Randall's reference the new Harvard ed. and if you check in the Harvard Concise Dictionary of Music and Musicians, pg 693, you'll see, " In Jazz, a turnaround is a passage at the end of a section which leads to the next section. The next section is most often the repetition of the previous section or the entire piece or song,"

    The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Music and Musicians... I have old as well as new sets... has basically the same as Harvards... just much more with way too many references and is also Western Classical Tradition... But the New Groves Dictionary of Jazz... does talk about Turnarounds and leads you to a discussion where Turnarounds and Chord Patterns are discussed harmonically with reference to Form and gets into usage with Western Classical, Pop and Jazz. It's a good read and helps bridge some of the language and terms confusion.

    I generally try and use terms with reference to the subject being discussed. We are somewhat discussing two aspects,

    1) Form of the music... what governs the overall structure of the music, which relates to the period of the music.

    2) Form in the music... the relationships within the music, within a single chords and also between successive chords and the rest of arrangement concepts and principles.

    Getting back to the...Cadence, Channel or Turnaround... the Chord Pattern at end of A section of Green Dolphin St, Cmaj7, B7, Bb7, A7.

    There are obviously many methods to approach... Hmm..This could be a great example to go through and explain how Jazz Concepts work, It's short, simple, most know the tune and can cover many of standard jazz performance practices as well as compositional techniques.

    If you don't mind j-mo, I'll put something together and post my comments/video over at my thread in the Theory section... I do have two doubles today and tomorrow, I'll be a little fried, 7 hours today, 4 hours as trio outdoors... don't know the bassist or drummer... yea I love playing Jazz, lots of jazz...
    Reg

  10. #34

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    Notice two C half notes sound clunky played on 1 and 3 and a lot of players either just hold the C through the first bar and a half or hit the second off beat. In general I am guessing it is a swing thing to hit longer sustained notes either ahead or behind the beat?

  11. #35

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    On Green Dolphin Street-capture-jpg

    This is what I have for the first two bars, swapped the half /whole C's