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  1. #1

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    OK so a bunch of us have bought this course and it's something that I really want to get good at so hopefully this group will gain some momentum and we can all learn from each others (no doubt with our different styles).

    I'll be making a forensic science out of this course for myself so I'd rather go through the course slowly as opposed to going through it fairly fast. My practise time is limited but I'll do my best.

    We could practise each of Tim's exercises and apply the concepts to songs that we know or we can just improv to the progressions that Tim mentions.

    Maybe we can start ex 4 & ex 5 from the first segment add a basic melody and aim to have them down smooth for Sunday and do the Latin stuff in the next segment next week?

    Feel free to chime in..........

    Btw if you don't have a clue what were talking about Tim's course is here.
    Last edited by Liarspoker; 03-11-2020 at 03:21 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I did pre-order this way back when. Checked today and yes, I do have it.

    Love Tim's stuff but I am already working on the Patterns For Jazz and Garrison Fewell study groups (and my mom just broke her hip, had surgery, and is in rehab, and I picked up something while visiting her at the hospital and have been sick for ten days now----my life is not my own, it seems.)

    But I will track this group and also look at Tim's course (but not today or tomorrow, perhaps over the weekend.)

    Nonetheless, I'm glad this group is starting up and I wish it the best.

  4. #3
    Ah, that's a pity Mark. It would be great to have you participate.

    You can always jump in once life aligns yourself with this course.

    Best wishes to your mother and I hope that you feel better soon too.

  5. #4

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  6. #5

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    Hi Guys,
    I'm flattered that you would start a group to study the course. If there are any snags with the content and you need clarification please feel free to reach out .
    all the best
    Tim

  7. #6
    Hey fep, there's no better man for a study group than yourself!

    I haven't visited this forum for a while as I went and did some Trinity classical guitar exams but before I went I remember that you were playing some tasty altered licks. I can't wait to see how you've developed these.

    How do you envisage studying the course? After some thought I'd like to learn Tim's examples so that I can play them smoothly on the way to internalising them (there's great info in those examples such as syncopation and anticipation etc) AND apply the concepts to actual tunes.

    Tim - it's great that you found this study group and thanks for allowing us to reach out if the need arises.

    Anyway, enough typing.....time to practise before work.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    How do you envisage studying the course? After some thought I'd like to learn Tim's examples so that I can play them smoothly on the way to internalising them (there's great info in those examples such as syncopation and anticipation etc) AND apply the concepts to actual tunes.

    Tim - it's great that you found this study group and thanks for allowing us to reach out if the need arises.

    Anyway, enough typing.....time to practise before work.
    How to study the course? With a Telecaster of course.

    Seriously though; I haven't spent enough time with the course yet to have a good view of how I might organize the study of the course. But I like your thoughts of internalising them. To that end and again as you already wrote, as part of the study I would like to apply the ideas to tunes outside of the course, whether they be standards or something I write myself. At least a tune or two, perhaps that would be extra credit

    Tim, thanks for checking in that is very generous of you.

  9. #8

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    I played through the whole course up until the tune examples start. What you end up with is a collection of voicings/positions (and some melodic ideas to steal) that point you toward where the sweet spots on the guitar are. The flexible/fluid spots.

    Tim chose essentially the bare minimum voicings to get you improvising on any tune. I've played around 10 tunes using the stuff. I have some prior experience with a lot of these exact shapes from Ted Greene's Modern Chord Progressions book, and have been playing this style (not nearly at Tim's level) for years, so I've been going through this quickly. For me this has actually been a reductionist process that allows me to really focus on melody and timing (my tendency is to be hyper focused on harmony). If I stick to these positions, I know I'm playing the most flexible areas for melody; will have the most melodic options.

    The best course on the subject I have ever seen and would benefit jazz beginners (because I think these should be the first voicings to learn) to pros.

  10. #9

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    Tim has a related minimalist tutorial at Jazz Guitar Society. And remember that the artist gets a few additional beans if you purchase this course through his web site.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
    Tim has a related minimalist tutorial at Jazz Guitar Society. And remember that the artist gets a few additional beans if you purchase this course through his web site.
    I will check it out. Speaking of related material, I highly recommend going through Modern Chord Progressions with this approach in mind (after you go through Tim's course and want more ideas).
    Tim Lerch - Solo Jazz Pathways - Chordal Improv Study Group-f02bca52-3154-4957-abdb-98e7c0f47985-jpgPlay the circles, then the x’s. Awesome stuff, recommend the book.

  12. #11

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    Speaking of Tim, there are a lot of great lessons at his site available for "something in the tip jar."
    Including his "Lost Mind Blues" chart and the "Sweet Lorraine" walking bass / comp lesson and many, many more.

    Website: timlerch.com

    Tim's a great player and teacher and a great guy too. He's a top level pro and we're lucky to have his lessons available to us anywhere on the planet for a few bucks. Take advantage! ;o)

  13. #12

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    Having fun with the Add a Basic Melody lesson this morning.

    It's working well for me and these are good platforms to work into variations.

  14. #13

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    One of the great things about Tim's approach is that his improv is primarily melodic. He thinks less in terms of scales and arpeggios (-which he knows) than of melodies. His blues lessons really bring this out. His chord moves are easier to learn and recall when you pay attention to the melodic line on top. (Not that all his chord moves are easy for me to learn... ;o)

  15. #14

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    Count me in.

    After playing through the examples in section 1, I have just learned the first 8 bars of "Improv in C".

    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    How do you envisage studying the course? After some thought I'd like to learn Tim's examples so that I can play them smoothly on the way to internalising them (there's great info in those examples such as syncopation and anticipation etc) AND apply the concepts to actual tunes.
    Since all the material is already videotaped, I don't think it is necessary to post videos of ourselves playing the exact same examples. May be we should focus more on improvising our own lines?! Or "composing" solos over tunes using the given (or our own) examples?! What do you think?

  16. #15

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    I wanted to add, impressed with the course quality. The material is good, well explained, and the notation is the best I've seen so far on truefire.

    (To be fair to truefire, the notation has been good on the other courses I've spent time with except for some enharmonic spelling errors, things like calling the flat third of a C chord D# when it should be an Eb. Seems nit picky of me, but those kind of things do cause a pause when I'm reading notation.)

  17. #16

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    Thanks for starting this study group thread. I'm a big fan of Tim's playing and teaching, and got the course on pre-order as soon as True Fire offered it.

    I realize now, however, that I'm really hampered by the fact that I never developed my right-hand pinky finger to articulate a top melody note on the high E string. I'm mainly a pick player, but even when I was doing some steel-string fingerstyle, or going through Scott Tenant's Pumping Nylon, the right hand fingering was always limited to p-i-m-a. So that right hand pinky just feels useless at this point....

    Does anyone have any suggestions, lesson material or other ideas about how to develop this laggard digit? For now, I'm trying out a few arpeggio exercises of my own, but there's probably a much more efficient way to tackle this problem.

    Thanks in advance.

  18. #17

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    I hope I don't need to use the pinky too much. I don't think I ever use the pinky independently.

    I mostly use it with the other fingers when going for a 5 note chord so it just kind of goes along for the ride with the third (a) finger. Before picking the strings all my fingers are placed on the strings (I believe that is refered to as "preparation" by the classical folks) and then there is an attack with all the fingers together or also sometimes in a raking fasion.

  19. #18
    Thanks for all the dialogue guys.

    Welcome to those coming along for the ride.

    Are we all working on the Add a Basic Melody lesson? My Ex 4 is getting there and have made a start on number 5.

    When it comes to videos maybe we could post some of ourselves playing diatonically (for the moment) over ii V I's?

  20. #19

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    I think we'll get by with PIMA. What's important, I think, is the concept. Get the melody note and the 3rd/7th and *maybe * the root and it'll sound good.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
    I think we'll get by with PIMA. What's important, I think, is the concept. Get the melody note and the 3rd/7th and *maybe * the root and it'll sound good.
    Yes, bass notes on 1 & 3 plus use syncopated chords.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    I wanted to add, impressed with the course quality. The material is good, well explained, and the notation is the best I've seen so far on truefire.
    I agree with you about the material and the presentation.

    This is my first true fire-course, so I don't have any experience with their notations, but so far I've found wrong notes in almost any of the examples.

    In the "Improv in C" for example, in the second measure, he plays a g on the and of one, while an a is notated.

    And sometimes I've found the notation a little cumbersome. In the first measure of "Altered Dominant" Tim plays a quarter note triplet, which is notated as two eight note triplets with ties and rests. That makes it way harder to read, I think.

    But since it is well filmed, I use the notation just as a clue and use my eyes and ears.

  23. #22
    Ok, I'll get the video thing of to a start.

    This is pure improv no pre planned moves as you'll see when I do a fancy chord sub move ( ie I lose my place a bit).

    I need to work on making it more jazzy sounding, slow it down a bit, use the fretboard more, alternate the bass more etc etc but my playing will only go upwards from here.


  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    Ok, I'll get the video thing of to a start.

    This is pure improv no pre planned moves as you'll see when I do a fancy chord sub move ( ie I lose my place a bit).

    I need to work on making it more jazzy sounding, slow it down a bit, use the fretboard more, alternate the bass more etc etc but my playing will only go upwards from here.

    I look forward to seeing your progress.

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by corpse
    I look forward to seeing your progress.
    Thanks, I'm looking forward to progressing.

  26. #25

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    I jumped right to Blues Around the Block and picked up some great moves already.....looking forward to working with all the lessons.

  27. #26

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    Thanks for all the good commentary....

    Since I introduced the topic of using the RH little finger, I'll share this additional info from the lesson sequence. I snuck ahead a bit and noticed that towards the end of Section 2 there is a chapter called "Right Hand Considerations." In that chapter, Tim shares the following thoughts, in his typical non-doctrinaire fashion:

    --"And yes, I'm using my little finger on a lot of these examples, to be able to have melodic distinction."
    --"It might take you a little while to get your little finger going, but I highly recommend using it."
    --"So if I'm playing a melody note on the high E string while I'm playing a chord, I'm almost always using my little finger for that."

    There's lots of other useful information there about related topics.

    So I think I'd be well advised to go into "a little while" mode and get that thing going. Besides, with all the social distancing I'm committed to these days, I really have no excuses...

  28. #27

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    Listened and worked on the "Add a Melody" lesson again today. I'll move on now to the next video lesson.

    Here is a short sample of what I'm practicing:


  29. #28

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    You're on the pathway, Frank!

  30. #29
    That's lovely Frank. I need to use space more and the walking bass is a cool idea too.

    In my example I was playing 8th notes already but instead of practising ex 4 & 5 I will move on to the latin grooves. If I could do a short improv over a bossa beat that would be super cool. Plenty to practise so.

    With regards to pinky I only use it when playing 4 notes chords. For the melody on the high E string I use a.

    Would love to see some more videos from everyone else. Don't be shy, were all learning.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    OK so a bunch of us have bought this course and it's something that I really want to get good at so hopefully this group will gain some momentum and we can all learn from each others (no doubt with our different styles).

    I'll be making a forensic science out of this course for myself so I'd rather go through the course slowly as opposed to going through it fairly fast. My practise time is limited but I'll do my best.

    We could practise each of Tim's exercises and apply the concepts to songs that we know or we can just improv to the progressions that Tim mentions.

    Maybe we can start ex 4 & ex 5 from the first segment add a basic melody and aim to have them down smooth for Sunday and do the Latin stuff in the next segment next week?

    Feel free to chime in..........

    Btw if you don't have a clue what were talking about Tim's course is here.
    I will take a look at it and get back to you


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  32. #31

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    There is much unspoken information in watching a master play.

    This morning I watched the "Using Chromaticism ii V I in C Demo" and two things stuck me. First, notice how Tim is thinking ahead by watching his left hand fingers. 1:43-1:46, for example - while our attention is on the rising chromatic melody, Tim is moving his index finger into place for the bass G note well before the downbeat occurs. Second, hang onto what you can... in the same clip, and by contrast, the second and third fingers hang onto that D-7 root and 7th until the very last moment before the finger configuration changes to the 3rd and 7th of the dominant chord. This "hang on" also results in the "backward fingering" at 1:59.

    That's quite a little, as and old professor of mine used to say. Enough nutrition in those ideas to fuel some practice.

  33. #32

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    I play a bit a bass and wanted to share a lesson from Scott's Bass Lessons on walking bass lines. For me this is a great start for putting bass lines into my guitar playing. (I'm not sure if Tim covers this somewhere in his course)

    To sum up the video, to start with walking bass lines it's chord tones plus 1/2 step approach tones to the next chord. So Dm7 to G7, three chord tones then the 1/2 step might look like: D F A Ab - G or D A F F# - G. And you don't have to always put in the 1/2 step approach, you actually probably don't want to be that repetitive. And, you don't have to play only quarter notes, pretty tough to do continous quarter note walking bass when also playing melody and chords at the same time.

    Skip to the 9 minute mark if you want to skip to the meat of the lesson:

    Last edited by fep; 03-14-2020 at 03:24 PM.

  34. #33

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    To motivate/encourage you guys to develop your right hand pinky (and if you think of when you’ll be using it, it doesn’t need to be very developed), think of what you can do with hybrid picking.

    You can pinch all your 4 note chords while holding the pick.

    I play this stuff all different ways (hybrid, all pick, all fingers) and one isn’t better than the other, just different.

    Can’t go wrong just copying guys like Tim though.

  35. #34

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    Just watched Melody in 8th Notes... With my guitar in hand and pausing here and there to give the material a try.

    I'm going to break this into two parts and will spend as long as it takes to get some facility with these ideas.

    Part 1 - Eight note melody with the chords, and then with half note bass, and then quarter note bass

    Part 2 - The bossa rhythm with bass and chords, then bossa rhythm bass, chords melody. This is my current roadblock and I see that I'll have to spend some extra time on this.

    I like the linear nature of the course and as such I'm reluctant to look ahead to other videos.

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by corpse
    I play this stuff all different ways (hybrid, all pick, all fingers) and one isn’t better than the other, just different..
    Agreed. I think which and how many fingers you use is a detail. It's the concepts that are important.

    Another guitarist I admire said that the left hand is like your brain and the right hand is like your personality. Gary Davis, Merle Travis, Ernie Hawkins... those guys used/use one finger and thumb which contributes significantly to their personality.

  37. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Just watched Melody in 8th Notes... With my guitar in hand and pausing here and there to give the material a try.

    I'm going to break this into two parts and will spend as long as it takes to get some facility with these ideas.

    Part 1 - Eight note melody with the chords, and then with half note bass, and then quarter note bass

    Part 2 - The bossa rhythm with bass and chords, then bossa rhythm bass, chords melody. This is my current roadblock and I see that I'll have to spend some extra time on this.

    I like the linear nature of the course and as such I'm reluctant to look ahead to other videos.
    I'll stay with you here fep. I tried improvising with a bossa feel today. I'm improving but it's still pretty bad so a good few hours more practise needed.

    Also I want to practise improvising more with the bass in half notes while I'm trying to play what I hear on top.

    I'm happy to stay here for a while.
    Last edited by Liarspoker; 03-14-2020 at 05:52 PM.

  38. #37
    Did a little practise this morning before the family got up and applied a simple melody and alternating bass on 1 & 3 over the first few bars of Misty.

    It's certainly not natural for me to improvise freely over changes like this yet. This video is half composed and half improvised as I did a few takes and had a road map in place.

    Edit: In hindsight I'm struggling through this a bit so that's another area of practise for me.

    Last edited by Liarspoker; 03-15-2020 at 06:36 AM.

  39. #38
    Here's another video from this morning. Thought I'd post it here to preserve it as I'm deleting it from my phone as I do with all my practise videos.

    Do you all record all or part of your practise sessions? I find it very beneficial to record things after I have practised them to see progress etc.

    Anyhow this is the melody from Lesson 2 8th Note melody over ii V I in C with a variation added on.

    Btw I think that Tim's fretboard looks awesome


  40. #39
    So I worked on the Latin thing in lesson 2 yesterday and today.

    Here's a little progress video. Lots to work on still and I certainly can't improvise in this feel yet. I need to play it another 1,000 times.

    Regarding bass lines just before this course came out I purchased Martin Taylor's Beyond Chord Melody book. It's very good and I envisage using it in conjunction with the material in this course in my playing. There's a whole chapter on bass line approaches.

    Anyhow I'll stick to this course and will keep on practising Tim's exercises as well as applying them to standards that I know.

    How are you all doing with this course?

    Edit: Lol, just realised that I uploaded the wrong video from my phone and the other is deleted. Nevermind.

    Last edited by Liarspoker; 03-16-2020 at 06:07 PM.

  41. #40
    Ok, progress video, 1 minute improv over ii V I re lessons 1 & 2.

    Tried to slow it down, bass on 1 & 3 though not always.

    Didn't warm up, straight improv.


  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Listened and worked on the "Add a Melody" lesson again today. I'll move on now to the next video lesson.

    Here is a short sample of what I'm practicing:


    Wow, that sounds great. Can't wait until I'm at your level of learning. I've been a guitarist for a long time and have "played jazz" in a jump blues/swing band. But I want to be a real deal jazz player. I'm especially interested in being able to competently play chord melodies. My close friend, who is now deceased, was a great chord melody player. I want to be able to play like him.

  43. #42

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    Tim,
    Is the enhanced harmony course a continuation of this course? Any teasers as to what we might see? Any info on the other one?

    I know they are months away, but I’m curious because I had a blast playing through this course. I love Can I Get an Amen; so much fun.

  44. #43

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    Just got this course. Looks great.
    I'm going to dig out my Tele.
    Seems like the right thing to do.

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by corpse
    Tim,
    Is the enhanced harmony course a continuation of this course? Any teasers as to what we might see? Any info on the other one?

    I know they are months away, but I’m curious because I had a blast playing through this course. I love Can I Get an Amen; so much fun.
    Thank you for your interest in the Enhanced Harmony course, it will be a while before its out but here is a YT live thing we did right after I shot it. There are two new courses coming. one is Jazz Blues and the other is Enhanced Harmony. I talk about the E H course at around the 40 minute mark. its not intended to be a continuation of Harmonic improv but definitely along the same lines.



    all the best
    Tim

  46. #45

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    My approach to this course is to go slowly and get some licks under my fingers. Learning Tim's first improvised solo reveals quite a bit to me. I see how ideas are reused and modified and I find some grips I've never used before. And fingerings... keep that pinky untethered! Check out Tim's Art of Two Note Accompaniment for a companion to this course.

    This is a progress report, shameless plagiarism, but my fingers are learning to move in new ways and that's progress in my book! I'll try improvising new lines with these ideas for a while next



  47. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
    My approach to this course is to go slowly and get some licks under my fingers. Learning Tim's first improvised solo reveals quite a bit to me. I see how ideas are reused and modified and I find some grips I've never used before. And fingerings... keep that pinky untethered! Check out Tim's Art of Two Note Accompaniment for a companion to this course.

    This is a progress report, shameless plagiarism, but my fingers are learning to move in new ways and that's progress in my book! I'll try improvising new lines with these ideas for a while next


    Wow, that's lovely Michael. Well done!!

    Looking forward to seeing you use these ideas in your improvisations.

    I skipped ahead slightly to the altered and chromatic sections which in turn lead me to the melodic minor scale in which I have been writing a few progressions. This coupled with playing rock with my 12 year old on bass, and practising my chord melody tunes as kept me somewhat away from this course though I have been practising bits and pieces from it. So thanks to this study group I'll get back to it today. Let's support and encourage each other to practise more.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
    My approach to this course is to go slowly and get some licks under my fingers. Learning Tim's first improvised solo reveals quite a bit to me. I see how ideas are reused and modified and I find some grips I've never used before. And fingerings... keep that pinky untethered! Check out Tim's Art of Two Note Accompaniment for a companion to this course.
    Michael, that's tremendous! I've been working on this same section, and I only have about 16 bars after a good week of shedding. Keeping the bass and chord rhythms going under the melody, and figuring out the fingerings, is quite a challenge for me.

    I agree that learning this solo has already taught me a lot. I'm starting to see the scales and melodies inside familiar chord shapes.

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Neverisky
    My approach to this course is to go slowly and get some licks under my fingers. Learning Tim's first improvised solo reveals quite a bit to me. I see how ideas are reused and modified and I find some grips I've never used before. And fingerings... keep that pinky untethered! Check out Tim's Art of Two Note Accompaniment for a companion to this course.

    This is a progress report, shameless plagiarism, but my fingers are learning to move in new ways and that's progress in my book! I'll try improvising new lines with these ideas for a while next


    You got that independence between the bass line and melody happening

  50. #49

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    Thanks Michael Neverisky for your video. It re-inspired me to finish picking out Tim's Pathway Improv #1 and today after much scratching and re-scratching my head, I finally got it under my finders. Still sloppy but all the parts are there. And thanks Tim for the great lessons! I agree with Michael and I think I'll stay here for a bit and try improvising new lines with these ideas.

  51. #50

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    A busy weekend here, my dog had foot surgery on Friday and attending to her has taken up most of my time. But that's what we do for our best friends.

    What time I have had has been wood shedding this bass note rhythmic thing. Mostly (always?) a hammer-on from the 5th below, conveniently an open string. Maybe Tim covers it in detail later in the course, but in the ii-V-I-VI in D section he makes it a part of the final improvisation and subtle as it is, I think the technique is a big part of the swing I hear in Tim's playing. Annotated from the transcription:



    Tim Lerch - Solo Jazz Pathways - Chordal Improv Study Group-anticipation-jpg


    I've spent the better part of my life coordinating my thumb with the beat... Chet, Merle Travis, etc. I can almost feel the new pathways being carved in my brain.