The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #101

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    The thing about Joe Pass, is that he broke new ground with the Virtuoso record in 1973.

    Maybe there were a few solo jazz guitar records at the time.

    I had just started college, Fall 1973, studying music and jazz guitar...

    But when Virtuoso LP came out it blew everyone’s mind: the solo guitar format, much of it acoustic on a 175, such speed and clarity, constant movement, and reharmonization, melody stated clearly, key changes, all done LIVE & improvised, etc etc etc... true virtuosity!!!

    and then several subsequent records in the same format...

    so fast he could keep up with Oscar Peterson, but the perfect gentleman accompaniment for Ella.

    I saw Joe numerous times in the 80s & early 90s, would get a table a close as possible where i could see his hands.

    finally got to know him, interviewed him for a local music rag, an even took a lesson from him.

    (not just strumming & sustaining pretty chords with the melody and a few fills like many other guitarists.)

    today i still listen to that Virtuoso record, but i can only take 2-3 tunes because it’s so rich with information & ideas.

    not exactly background wallpaper music, very engaging & demanding to listen to...

    and he revived the popularity of a lot of those old standards from the 30s, My Old Flame, Night & Day, Stella...

    I listen to jazz guitar records every morning when i’m cooking breakfast, Joe, Herb, Barney, Kenny Burrell, HR, Wes, Django...

    then i’m ready for the day... working with other peoples music at our studio.

    best, JT

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  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by VanEpsInDeChirico
    I completely agree with this statement. Jazz is waaaaay too full of reverence for idols today. It’s like a church where one goes to worship saints. Living musical forms need a certain amount of (a lot of) critical re-evaluation to continually strir up new ideas and uproot old ones. In the 1960s when jazz was more of a thriving art form a player like Kessell, for example was less respected than he is today because the new wave of young players felt he was old school and out of touch. Today one finds (in large part but not exclusively) not a living breathing changing art form in jazz so much as a space for worshiping the Gods Of ancient times.
    Is it that different in other genres? It seems to me it's even worse there. Clapton, Page, Hendrix, the Beatles, Elvis, etc. etc. Talking about the Gods of ancient times ...

    By the way, there's LOTS of modern jazz (guitar) being produced these days too. The fact that many of these players are not discussed so often here does not mean that they do not exist.

    I find lots of classic pop and rock music totally obsolete sounding. All this stuff is equally dated as bebop - the 1960s were over 50 years ago - but nobody is complaining there. Jazz always seems to get the exclusive flak of regurgitating the past. Classical music is not dead and jazz is????

    50s rock and roll, 60s beat music, 70s symphonic rock, 80s new age etc. etc. It's ALL over and done with but people still seem to like it. Same for bebop. No difference.

    Charlie Parker is no deader than Bach, John Lennon and Elvis IMHO. He is just as relevant. Only not so popular.

    DB

  4. #103

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    I won't take on the OP's premise about Joe Pass because enough folks have done so already.

    However, the recent posts about jazz in general in this thread reminded me of a brief discussion I had with Joe Pass between sets at a supper club he played in my area years ago. I asked his take on chord melody and he said two things:

    1. Learn melodies. He said that students of jazz guitar are so focused on learning all these chords that they forget about the melody. We should be able to play most any melody, just as folks sing along with their favorite tunes. That comes first and then start adding chords.
    2. Play the tunes you grew up with. He said that the tunes he plays (played) are what were on the radio when he was growing up - the popular music of the day. We have different music to play that we grew up with. It is the music we really know well because we heard it so often, and during our formative years. It becomes a part of us, and that is what we want to express.

    Clearly, we all will have our own take on these ideas, whether we agree, disagree, don't care, etc. I just wanted to get these out there for consideration.

    Tony

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbeltrans
    I won't take on the OP's premise about Joe Pass because enough folks have done so already.

    However, the recent posts about jazz in general in this thread reminded me of a brief discussion I had with Joe Pass between sets at a supper club he played in my area years ago. I asked his take on chord melody and he said two things:

    1. Learn melodies. He said that students of jazz guitar are so focused on learning all these chords that they forget about the melody. We should be able to play most any melody, just as folks sing along with their favorite tunes. That comes first and then start adding chords.
    2. Play the tunes you grew up with. He said that the tunes he plays (played) are what were on the radio when he was growing up - the popular music of the day. We have different music to play that we grew up with. It is the music we really know well because we heard it so often, and during our formative years. It becomes a part of us, and that is what we want to express.

    Clearly, we all will have our own take on these ideas, whether we agree, disagree, don't care, etc. I just wanted to get these out there for consideration.

    Tony
    I couldn't agree more and I think I remember him also saying the same thing in an interview somewhere. I believe I also remember (I think) him saying in an interview that he didn't consider himself a jazz guitarist but as a guitarist who used 'jazz' chords in his playing. To me, the melody is the most important part of a tune - it's what you remember after you hear someone play it, not 15 choruses of improvisation built on the same harmonic structure. I guess that's why I'm drawn to chord melody instead of improvisation for it's own sake.

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbeltrans
    I won't take on the OP's premise about Joe Pass because enough folks have done so already.

    However, the recent posts about jazz in general in this thread reminded me of a brief discussion I had with Joe Pass between sets at a supper club he played in my area years ago. I asked his take on chord melody and he said two things:

    1. Learn melodies. He said that students of jazz guitar are so focused on learning all these chords that they forget about the melody. We should be able to play most any melody, just as folks sing along with their favorite tunes. That comes first and then start adding chords.
    2. Play the tunes you grew up with. He said that the tunes he plays (played) are what were on the radio when he was growing up - the popular music of the day. We have different music to play that we grew up with. It is the music we really know well because we heard it so often, and during our formative years. It becomes a part of us, and that is what we want to express.

    Clearly, we all will have our own take on these ideas, whether we agree, disagree, don't care, etc. I just wanted to get these out there for consideration.

    Tony
    Hello. New member here, 1st post. Long time lurker. Was browsing the chord melody forum and found this thread. It really struck home. A few days ago, on another forum, I posted a similar sentiment to the OP, in the context of a discussion. I had chosen my words poorly and was quickly attacked and told I couldn't hear, didn't have the musical or technical ability to understand and would never reach that level. Maybe that's true. But, to be derided publicly by a complete stranger was a bit unnerving. I was simply trying to say that while I appreciated that JP was a great musician, I generally prefer to listen to other players.

    When I read the above post, I had to respond. What great advice! After five plus decades as a student of guitar, I have recently gone back to where I started and have spent time to really learn some standards and Great American Songbook tunes. Also, I have been learning tunes for a new group and a lot of them are tunes I heard as a kid, back when radio just played music and wasn't subdivided into multiple niche markets.

    Not only has Joes words given me a bit of validation for my own current pursuit, they have given me a new appreciation for him as a player and reason to go back and maybe study his playing a little deeper.

    I get where the OP is coming from, but unfortunately on any forum, you have to present opinions very carefully or face the backlash.


    Thanks for reading.

  7. #106

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    I can see why Joe Pass' chord melody playing wouldn't be for everybody. It's certainly different from more conventional approaches. I like it for it's freedom and because listening to it, I get the sense of an artist going for broke. There's always a sense of tightrope dancing with Pass, and I love him for it. In fact, that's one of the things that attracted me to Pass from the moment I heard him. There's a sense of chance taking that had an energy I could understand as a teen mostly listening to rock. It also means that his playing is in some ways warts and all, not as smoothly elegant and seemingly effortless as some of his peers and I can see why that's not for everybody. But I like that. There's a mensch there.

    Otoh I think it's perfectly valid to not like every aspect or everything a player do or did. To my ears, some of the things Pass did with NHØP come across to me as horse racing in the Oscar Peterson vein. I admire the craft, I don't like it as music.

  8. #107

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    FWIW, my wife doesn't like jazz guitar, possibly the result of hearing me all the time, but loves Joe Pass solo and also the albums with Ella.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    FWIW, my wife doesn't like jazz guitar, possibly the result of hearing me all the time, but loves Joe Pass solo and also the albums with Ella.
    This is purely my own opinion, but if anybody doesn't like listening to Joe Pass' earlier "Virtuoso" series (there were 4 of them), introduce that person to his last solo albums "Unforgettable" and "Songs For Ella". Beautiful stuff.

    Of course, those albums with Ella Fitzgerald are special too.

    Tony

  10. #109

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    I have always thought his solo album Blues for Fred was a high-water mark both of his chops, his taste, his selection of tunes, and his tone. It's just (to me) a perfect album.

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I have always thought his solo album Blues for Fred was a high-water mark both of his chops, his taste, his selection of tunes, and his tone. It's just (to me) a perfect album.
    I think that his last two solo albums might be more "Accessible" to the casual listener, but coud be wrong about that. I do know that folks who aren't "jazzers" seem to respond favorably to those albums when I put them on.

    Blues For Fred is a great album.

    I am glad to see this thread turning into more of a "Joe Pass appreciation" thread. I like that tone much better.

    Tony

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbeltrans
    I think that his last two solo albums might be more "Accessible" to the casual listener, but coud be wrong about that. I do know that folks who aren't "jazzers" seem to respond favorably to those albums when I put them on.

    Blues For Fred is a great album.

    I am glad to see this thread turning into more of a "Joe Pass appreciation" thread. I like that tone much better.

    Tony
    The last two albums were recorded when Joe was actively dying from cancer. He barely had the strength to play, so it's ironic that people find the music so appealing, then again, maybe not.

  13. #112

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    I admired Joe Pass without enjoying him a whole lot.

    I saw him perform in a small room once toward the end of his career. His guitar was plugged into a Shure Vocal Master PA - a low-budget system provided by the promoter. Very hard to get a good tone out of that system, and he didn't.

    Conceivably they could have provided a JC-120 or a Twin Reverb, either of which would have sounded infinitely better, if Mr. Pass had requested it. This said to me that he didn't care a great deal about how he sounded.

    Of course musical content is more important than tone, but wow...

  14. #113

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    All a matter of one's preferences.

    Technically Joe is superior but to my ear he plays too busily, meaning you don't have to fill the interval between the melody notes with as many fill notes as humanly possible. Oscar Peterson does the same thing on the piano. Both technically brilliant, but too busy, too many notes … especially if accompanying a singer, i.e., check out this video of Peterson accompanying Nat Cole: Peterson is way overplaying.



    Sometimes less is more.

  15. #114

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    Never liked his tone! Herb Ellis even less. Sorry!
    Unfortunately in the jazz world guitar is considered pretty low in the pecking order. I heard someone once say that the only significant jazz guitar recording ever was The Bridge by Sonny Rollins (Jim Hall). There are important guitar recordings in the history of jazz guitar but only guitarists think they are important. Horns, keyboards, percussion, and usually a string bass will always dominate. It is what it is guys.

  16. #115

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    Joe's recorded tone ranged from perfect to abysmal.

    Never thought the bad tones were HIS fault.

    Joe's recorded PLAYING (you know, the thing that actually matters) was NEVER subpar. Never.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by md54
    Never liked his tone! Herb Ellis even less. Sorry!
    Unfortunately in the jazz world guitar is considered pretty low in the pecking order. I heard someone once say that the only significant jazz guitar recording ever was The Bridge by Sonny Rollins (Jim Hall). There are important guitar recordings in the history of jazz guitar but only guitarists think they are important. Horns, keyboards, percussion, and usually a string bass will always dominate. It is what it is guys.
    This is just wrong.

    Peruse any of a dozen "top 100 jazz albums of all time" or the like, and you'll find typically Django Reinhardt, Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, likely also Grant Green and Pat Metheny. Obviously people who are not just guitarists think at least these guitarists are important.

    Your last sentence is more arrogant for being ignorant.

    Joe Pass' Virtuoso far outsold every other title released by Pablo in the history of that label. Evidently people spent money on an album that was not important? I know, Ella Fitzgerald toured and recorded with a lone saxophone player.... no...

  18. #117

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    Guitarbuddy made a good point, that Mr. Pass's amplified sound may have been beyond his control at the show I saw. My apologies.

    However, let's all avoid using antique Shure Vocal Master PA systems to amplify our jazz music. For me, it was disconcerting to hear the great Joe Pass with the scratchy, harsh, midrangey tonal quality of a cheap answering machine. Forty lashes to whoever provided this crummy system.

    (Sometime in the early 1980s a promoter I knew asked if she could use my 2x10 65 watt Music Man amp for a few shows - she was bringing Tal Farlow and Herb Ellis to town on different dates. I told her that my price was, I get to meet them. These were terrific shows, and they sounded great through this excellent amp - I was delighted to meet these gentlemen, and proud that I could help them out.)

  19. #118

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    Can’t be arsed to read the whole thread but it does seem that Padraig at present lacks the rhythmic awareness to distinguish really swinging playing from merely good time.

    Don’t mean to be a dick, it took me ages to understand that difference myself. I listen to music totally differently to the way I did 20 years ago and that’s a beautiful thing. There’s probably players I don’t get now that I’ll come around to in a couple of decades.

    In terms of technical standards and there’s been a sea change in recent years, everyone is amazing now... but in terms of anyone swinging like Wes for instance? Pace all the excellent youtube players but I hope they’d acknowledge themselves that Wes is pretty much the high mountain top, along with Grant, Charlie C and so on and Joe of course.

    Plus the music has changed even when people try to copy the past, they always get it different because we no longer live in that environment. Which is cool, because it means jazz is showing some signs of life...
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-02-2019 at 04:22 AM.

  20. #119

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    But Joe Pass did Stones Jazz!!!

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    But Joe Pass did Stones Jazz!!!.
    It could be his Record label pressure to put out something more pop. Do you think he enjoyed it?

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    It could be his Record label pressure to put out something more pop. Do you think he enjoyed it?
    Joe Pass always said any musical genre could be interpreted in a jazz oriented style and did an album of Hank Williams tunes with Roy Clark to prove it. I would hope Joe hated doing that Stones album, but in his own quirky way, I bet he enjoyed it.

    But my nomination was with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

  23. #122

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    I'm reminded that Keith Jarret said Art Tatum played "too many notes."

    Interview with Keith Jarrett | DO THE M@TH

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by Binyomin
    I'm reminded that Keith Jarret said Art Tatum played "too many notes."

    Interview with Keith Jarrett | DO THE M@TH
    Wow, that was one of the best musician interviews that I have ever read. Thanks!

    Took a while to get through it, as I kept getting diverted by cross referencing some of the content with youtube. Also came across this gem of a piece:

    Five Awkward Conversations With Paul Motian — Vinnie Sperrazza

  25. #124

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  26. #125

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    "Then I hear someone like Wes and yes I think, what's all the fuss about? Good at what he does maybe, good because he was an innovativor in his genre maybe, but not "great". Not "legendary" or "genius". These are not terms I would use."

    I suspect the op is gone, but he should seriously consider going back and relistening to Wes like he did w/ Joe and wake up and smell the coffee. I still listen to Wes all the time, but haven't listened to Joe much in quite awhile, not that I don't still dig him [I got a kick out of the Ain't Misbehavin clip earlier in the thread] I guess I'm more attracted to other cats these days. Certainly one of the best to ever do it though, saw him many times and he was always great.
    I rarely use that 'genius' term and wouldn't w/ Wes or Joe or any other jazz guitarist I can think of really, those two just happen to be fantastic and influential jazz guitarists, legendary for sure.
    But in jazz, Ellington, Pops, Bird, Miles, Monk, I'd put those cats in the 'g' club, depends on your criteria I guess....