The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    He clearly had a lot of technical facility, a great understanding and knowledge of harmony, more chords under his fingers than you can shake a stick at. He was clearly competent as an accompanist or in a band setting, and a lovely chap by all accounts.

    But his chord melody solo stuff, it just 'aint that musical is my unpopular opinion. Who listens to it apart from other guitarists? And do we actually listen to it for pleasure or just when we're trying to learn something?

    Compare this trio setting of Satin Doll with his solo recordings of the same tune:



    I first heard Joe Pass when I was about 16 and I thought then he was technically good, musically meh. I'm in my mid 40s now and I still think that.

    If a jazz pianist sat down and played like Joe Pass, would they be called "great", honestly? Where's the tune? Where's the melody? Where's the rhythm? Where can I hang my hat? There are glimpses of it but they are too few and too far betweem, it's simply not there for the most part.

    I wonder how many none guitarist jazz fans listen to Joe Pass albums?

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  3. #2

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    Well, you are welcome to your opinion. It is in the nature of opinions that they differ. Personally, I dig Joe Pass' playing very much. His endless invention, sense of swing and encyclopedic knowledge of the fretboard have inspired me to keep at it (this jazz thing); and also the acquisition of my ES-175 (at considerable sacrifice). I suspect this is true to one degree or another to a great many of us here at jazzguitar.be (Thanks, Dirk!). There are plenty of other players to dig, and that is as it should be. Have a good one!

  4. #3

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    Hes not one of my favorite players personally, but I wouldn't slight his artistry, nor diminish his influence or importance.

    If anything, hes one of few guitar players the rest of the jazz world took seriously. Undeniably one of the absolute greats.

    As for not hearing the melody in his solo improvisations, I think you need to listen closer, really. He also didn't know "more chords than anybody " Joe was actually a big proponent of keeping chord shapes simple and not using stuff you couldn't grab on the fly.

    Honestly, your opinion overall seems uninformed.

  5. #4

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    All I can say is that I always liked his small ensemble recordings, like "Intercontinental", but didn't care at all for his solo recordings.

    I never analyzed it, but I've listened to "Intercontinental", for example, many times over the years, but I don't think I listened to any of this solo recordings more than once. Now that's from memory, and therefore fallible, but that's how I recall it.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

    As for not hearing the melody in his solo improvisations, I think you need to listen closer, really.
    You shouldn't have to though, that's one of my points. Music shouldn't be an auricular exercise, it should be simply enjoyable. If the audience can't tell what you're playing then you're not playing it right.

    I think us jazz guitarists in particular have a tendency to disappear up our own bottoms sometimes.

  7. #6

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    It's often said that music is the universal language. This is not true because, like any language, it takes a certain amount of cultural context and, yes education, to understand what is happening.

    When I was in college, one of my fellow undergrads was from a different culture, a non-western culture whose classical music could be described as a single melodic line played against a drone. To him Beethoven sounded like a bunch of noise.

    Many people can't make sense of Indian classical music, as recorded by Ravi Shankar for example, because they don't understand the intent and context. This is not a put-down, we are all on a path after all. Musicians like Joe Pass were further along that path than perhaps you and I are today.

  8. #7

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    I think you're missing the point of what goes on in jazz, a bit though.

    And Joe was probably among the best ever at playing solo guitar "in time" and the harmony of a tune is always clearly outlined in his improv.

    I think you can criticize the "busy-ness" occasionally, but the criticisms you have posted are just not true.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    And Joe was probably among the best ever at playing solo guitar "in time" and the harmony of a tune is always clearly outlined in his improv.
    This made me think of Joe saying in one of his interviews that it was from playing with Oscar Peterson that he developed the habit of not rehearsing. Joe and Oscar were like-minded about harmony. (Joe says it's because they grew up listening to the same players.) I think one reason Joe was (fairly) popular among non-guitarists is precisely because he had a good sense of melody and an inventive (but not really strange or jarring) approach to harmony.

    That said, I get the preference for small group recordings over solo ones. (I think this goes for most piano players too though.)

    But this solo piece, introduced by Oscar Peterson who called Joe a genius, is fantastic in several ways. And as you say, in time! ;o)

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by dconeill
    All I can say is that I always liked his small ensemble recordings, like "Intercontinental", but didn't care at all for his solo recordings.

    I never analyzed it, but I've listened to "Intercontinental", for example, many times over the years, but I don't think I listened to any of this solo recordings more than once. Now that's from memory, and therefore fallible, but that's how I recall it.
    Thats exactly how I feel...I loved "Intercontinental" and "for Django", but I never listened to much else. I really an not a jazz guitarist, so I dont understand all the improvisation, I just like to hear the melody and maybe a little doodling...I used to buy records by checking the length of the songs....if they were 8 minutes then I knew the melody would soon be gone and the rest improvisation, and I wouldnt buy it. But in regards to Joe's playing, I consider him a genius of the guitar in all respects. Johnny Smith was criticized as not being a true jazz guitarist, as his "improvisation" was worked out ahead of time and thus not spontaneous...I loved Johnny Smith. But I am coming from a melody background and it is my lack of knowledge and skill, that I dont improvise...I am amazed and awed by those that can !!

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by pcpicker47
    Johnny Smith was criticized as not being a true jazz guitarist, as his "improvisation" was worked out ahead of time and thus not spontaneous...
    I suspect a very great many of these so called "improvisations" on many recordings have been carefully rehearsed beforehand. Maybe not note for note but the framework is there for sure.

    And in classical music, the "cadenza" is always rehearsed by the soloist, sometimes for years before they record it or play it in a public performance.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig
    I suspect a very great many of these so called "improvisations" on many recordings have been carefully rehearsed beforehand. Maybe not note for note but the framework is there for sure.
    .
    The framework is worked out...its called "the song."

    Are you suggesting Joe wasn't improvising?

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

    Are you suggesting Joe wasn't improvising?
    I've no idea what he was doing. I'm simply saying I wouldn't be at all surprised if sometimes he didn't know exactly what was coming next. Because he practiced it. That's what professional performance artists do, practice an awful lot, it's absolutely nothing to do with this absurd idea of "talent".

    Like the way actors in the theatre will often rehearse little "mistakes" and the "ad libs" to make a performance seem more "live", yet you go back the next night and it's exactly the same.

  14. #13

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    I dig Joe's chord melody playing and his solo playing.

    I don't listen to him nearly as much as Wes or Grant Green or Peter Bernstein, because I'm more into hardbop these days--that and Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow, and Billy Bean.

    Now, if we're talking about Joe's single line improvisations... not so much. I think the content of his lines are quite interesting. I just don't like the sound. He does a lot of hammer-on pull off articulations and they are clearly different than his picked or plucked notes. And I was never crazy about his tone.

    That said, he was the first jazz guitarist I ever heard. He's responsible for introducing the jazz guitar world to a lot of concepts. And he knows how to drive a swing feel.

    However, I wonder what the jazz guitar world would look like if as many people who listened to Joe Pass listened to George Van Eps instead. In terms of revolutionary chord melody, GVE takes the cake.

  15. #14

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    Joe Pass’s solo performances are technically amazing, but they usually leave me a bit cold. I guess I feel that he makes the tunes fit his style of playing rather than bringing out the beauty in the melody. For pretty much every tune he plays I think I could find at least one other recording by someone else I like better.

    I don’t deny his great influence on music, and he influenced me as well, but when I want to hear solo guitar I’ll usually play someone else. I love his performances in groups though—the duets with Ella Fitzgerald in particular.

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    Joe Pass’s solo performances are technically amazing, but they usually leave me a bit cold.......
    For pretty much every tune he plays I think I could find at least one other recording by someone else I like better.

    ......when I want to hear solo guitar I’ll usually play someone else. I love his performances in groups though—the duets with Ella Fitzgerald in particular.
    I thought it was an unpopular opinion but I think the majority of replies so far seem to agree. Technically great, not that enjoyable to listen to.

  17. #16
    I don't like these broad revisionist analyses of players from the past. There simply wasn't anyone playing solo guitar in the way that he did at the time. feels a little like comparing baseball players from decades ago to current players or something.

    Also, Virtuoso is widely considered to be an engineering /recording disaster . They basically lost the mic recording the amp or something? Anyway, that's not so much to do with his actual playing or musicianship.

    The videos of his live performances late in life - solo and unaccompanied - are really so much better than those early recordings. What's the context, and who are we comparing him to?
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 05-12-2019 at 02:28 PM.

  18. #17

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    I know where you're coming from. Sometimes Joe seems so busy cramming as many notes in as possible that it can be exhausting, however...……. I love his Unforgettable album. So tasteful and elegant and a beautiful tone. Ms. darkwaters is a big fan of this album and always remarks on it when it's on the stereo.


  19. #18

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    Padraig couldn’t see what all the fuss was about Wes Montgomery either, in a previous thread. It’s all subjective, ultimately.

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Padraig couldn’t see what all the fuss was about Wes Montgomery either, in a previous thread. It’s all subjective, ultimately.
    Haha, yes you're right, I'd forgotten about that it was so long ago. But yeh, I don't. I suppose it was a time and a place. YouTube is full of amateur bedroom players knocking out tastier licks than Wes. But then I guess they're piggybacking on decades of collective experience whereas people like Wes invented it.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig
    YouTube is full of amateur bedroom players knocking out tastier licks than Wes.
    I’m sorry, but this statement does make me question your judgement!

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I’m sorry, but this statement does make me question your judgement!
    Do you not agree? There's a lot of tripe on the Internet but one thing you can't deny about the technology age is that it turns out there are a hell of a lot of very capable people who now have access to an audience. Not just music but every discipline you can think of.

    There are people playing on YouTube that are far better than some of these musicians we like to put on a pedestal as 'legends'.

    An example, ten years ago and the chap has since passed away sadly. But he was a very capable fiddle player:



    As somebody joked on a popular website the other week, "if the Mona Lisa had been painted today it would have got about 44 likes on Instagram and that would have been the end of it"

  23. #22

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    So padraig, please list your five favorite jazz guitar players who were known recording artists prior to 1970.

  24. #23

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    And your five to ten favorite jazz albums where the guitarist is the leader, and no fusion, gypsy, or Latin artists please just for the time being.

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    So padraig, please list your five favorite jazz guitar players who were known recording artists prior to 1970.
    Gosh, top five is difficult but I can offer some names that are surely in the running?

    Kessel, Jimmy Raney, Rene Thomas, Herb Ellis, Grant Green?

    Dunno, what would your top five be? Good question.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig
    Haha, yes you're right, I'd forgotten about that it was so long ago. But yeh, I don't. I suppose it was a time and a place. YouTube is full of amateur bedroom players knocking out tastier licks than Wes. But then I guess they're piggybacking on decades of collective experience whereas people like Wes invented it.
    Got some examples? Keep them to "tastier", not "more technically difficult". I'm sure that others would be interested as well.