The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig
    I don't see that though, John. What I see is other guitarists fawning over it. And that's partly my point. That outside of guitar circles this stuff isn't highly rated.

    And I posed the question much earlier in the thread, how many none guitarist jazz fans actually put solo Joe Pass albums on for pleasure?

    Surely that's the acid test? Do people want to listen to it or not? Even plenty of people here are saying no, they've not got much time for his solo stuff.
    I think Joe is great but I haven't put any of his stuff on for a long time. To be honest, I seldom listen to traditional jazz at all (other than I try to listen to fellow forum members recordings that they post here). As close is I get is Robben Ford which I think many wouldn't consider to be jazz at all.

    I do play in a jazz style quite a bit, or at least attempt to.

    There was a time though when I listened to Joe Pass a lot. And, learning to play a Joe Pass chord melody really helped me appreciate him. Sometimes it requires a deep understanding to see the beauty of something.

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  3. #77
    B.S.

    The "tasty licks better than Wes" comment has never been addressed with any kind of example. Put up or shut up. The troll label is well deserved until there is SOME attempt at actually substantiating that asinine comment. It's 2019. Putting up a few dozen examples takes a couple of minutes if this is actually true. Where are the bedroom players examples?

    Joe and Wes don't major in "tasty licks" anyway. They mostly major in "tasty MULTIPLE choruses" the likes of which most modern players struggle to match after decades.

    I don't hear wankery here:

    I hear serving the melody over the improv. I hear a level of artistery which stands up pretty well, a couple of decades later. Again, multiple choruses without really "reaching" for ideas.

    Nor here:

    Multiple choruses of pure genius after pretty intimidating multi-chorus solos from great players preceding his.

    Screw tasty licks. Talk about sitting down with competent pros on piano/horn etc and not merely holding your own or staying alive...but delivering really compelling multiple choruses which each convey something special.

    Talk about taking the entire stage by yourself the way Pass does above and talk about the number of guitarists could do so as strongly as him, NOW - decades later.

    ...but put up the examples here. It's 2019, the peak of lazy-man's verification... Should be easy...
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 05-14-2019 at 03:21 PM.

  4. #78

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    I have shared the stage with many jazz guitar luminaries including Larry Coryell, Bruce Forman and Howard Alden. All were big fans of Joe Pass. I have never met a jazz guitarist whose playing I respected who disliked the playing of Joe Pass. Somehow, I doubt I ever will.

    We all have our subjective opinions, but objectively, Joe Pass is one of the giants of jazz guitar. IMO, Joe Pass WAS all that.

  5. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    I have shared the stage with many jazz guitar luminaries including Larry Coryell, Bruce Forman and Howard Alden. All were big fans of Joe Pass.
    Which luminaries on other instruments have you shared the stage with that were "big fans of Joe Pass"?

    List the luminary horn players or bass players or pianists that told you they were big fans of Joe Pass.

  6. #80

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    Critique is fine, but it needs to be informed.

    I think that's why you're getting so much push back, padraig. Much of the stuff you stated as a criticism of Joe is simply untrue.

    If you said stuff along the lines of "His solo playing is sometimes too busy to my ears" or "in the 1980's he often recorded with a very dry, brittle tone and I much prefer the way he sounded on 'Joy Spring'" or "he smoked too many cigars" people would be like "yep."

    And I bet if you rounded up a bunch of horn players and pianists and asked them to name 5 jazz guitar players, Joe would be on almost every list (and some wouldn't be able to name 5)

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig
    I am no jazz musician, I've said as much in this thread and in others. But I have played violin all my life, and to a reasonable standard. I played classical guitar all the way through school but lost interest in my 20s. To say I have no idea of harmony or melodic concepts is just a cheap insult.

    Like many people with a background in classical music, I find jazz difficult. Incomprehensible at times. The matter isn't helped when it seems there's so much absolute twoddle written about it. Modes? I've never heard any classically trained musician talk about modes as anything other than an historical footnote. Yet jazz forums like this are full of it. I know a violinist who plays for a very well known symphony orchestra in the UK and I kid you not he says he doesn't even know the key signatures. He says he knew them once when he was a kid and had to pass theory exams but other than that, not a clue. He just plays the notes on the score. And I tell you what, it is astonishing to stand next to him, a foot away from the instrument and hear the quality of tone and the musicality he can get from even the most simple melody. Furthermore, I've never seen a piece of music that he's even had to stop to think about, just reads and plays like we read words on a page. Then I hear someone like Wes and yes I think, what's all the fuss about? Good at what he does maybe, good because he was an innovativor in his genre maybe, but not "great". Not "legendary" or "genius". These are not terms I would use.

    I dabble in playing jazz on the guitar and wish I was more competent. Likewise I'd love to be able to play jazz violin but I can do little more than play the heads of tunes and for improvising my approach is to embellish the melody whilst trying to keep it in time and with the right 'feel'.

    I know what sounds musical when I hear it though and that's enough to have an opinion in my book. Some of the solo work from Joe Pass does not sound musical to me. It sounds like somebody playing random notes with a very generous sense of rubato. If you like that then great, crack on.

    I'm willing to learn, I'm willing to accept my opinion is unpopular here. But I'm not willing to accept I'm a "troll" or that my opinion shouldn't count because I've not got a PhD in music theory.
    I tend to agree with a lot of what you say. I have never even pretended to be a jazz musician and, as much as I like SOME of Wes's (or Joe's or Johnny's or Herb's) stuff, I find it difficult to listen to a jazz album of anyone's all the way through - to me, it borders on boring. I know what they're doing and the point behind the improvisation but it all sounds pretty much the same to me. Once you get away from the melody, you start to lose me - sure, embellish it a little, but don't completely rewrite it and call it the same name. If you're so creative, write your own tune, give it a name and own it - that's what all the great songwriters have done. If I were a composer and wrote a beautiful piece of music, I would tend to refuse recording rights to anyone who didn't play it, more or less, as I wrote it. To me, the melody is the most important part of a tune. As an example, I have a book of hundreds of Irish and Scottish airs, jigs, hornpipes, etc. and there is not a single chord symbol in the entire book. If you're playing them on anything other than a wire strung Irish harp, you're free to add harmony as you will to flesh them out, but, the composer wrote a melody and that's all he felt was important to convey the emotion of the piece. Now, I know some will dismiss these as simple folk music but they're some of the most beautiful melodies ever written. There are lots of chord progressions out there - pick one (or devise your own) and make a nice melody that goes with it and you'll have a tune that folks will remember and whistle to themselves as they leave a venue. I don't see that happening with a 20 minute solo on ATTYR. I think that's why Wes's pop stuff was so popular - people could hear the song that he was playing. What's wrong with playing "California Dreaming" and "Winds of Barcelona" so they're recognizable?

  8. #82

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    I agree, Joe Pass was never my cup of tea. I never liked his tone, and I thought he was too "busy".

    Doesn't mean he's not a genius and one of the top guitarists, regardless of genre. Just not for me.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo
    I agree, Joe Pass was never my cup of tea. I never liked his tone, and I thought he was too "busy".

    Doesn't mean he's not a genius and one of the top guitarists, regardless of genre. Just not for me.
    I agree, although I'm a bigger Joe fan than you seem to be. I'd much rather listen to Johnny Smith and Herb Ellis and some of the pop Wes stuff. I think part of it is that their stuff is closer to attainable by someone of my skill level than what Joe played.

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
    I agree, although I'm a bigger Joe fan than you seem to be. I'd much rather listen to Johnny Smith and Herb Ellis and some of the pop Wes stuff. I think part of it is that their stuff is closer to attainable by someone of my skill level than what Joe played.
    I very much agree. Ellis, Johnny, etc are much more in line with what I like. It has nothing to do with "can I play like him" tho.

  11. #85

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    My next door neighbor says pretty much the same thing as the OP. Her favorite musician is Cardi B.

    At some point the old adage comes to mind.

    People say they know what they like but they really like what they know
    If you don't recognize the genius here, the problem isn't joe pass. IT'S YOU!


  12. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    My next door neighbor says pretty much the same thing as the OP. Her favorite musician is Cardi B.
    Go ahead. Sneer away, look down your nose. Cardi B is currently selling more records than Joe Pass.

    Music is supposed to be entertainment. Jazz was entertainment in the 40s and 50s and 20s and 30s. But it's not now is it.

    Why not? Because nobody wants to listen to Joe Pass solo albums other than amateur guitarists, a very small niche audience. And that is why people are so butthurt in this thread, because the truth hurts. Niche artists like your Joe Pass simply ain't popular. It's crap.

    Does that mean jazz as an art form is dead? No, not at all. I was at the theatre last Friday, went to see a performance of The Great Gatsby and it was marvellous. 1920s tunes played by an orchestra and the audience absolutely loved it. It's not dead at all, good music is good music. What is dead is losers trying to learn forty year old Joe Pass solos in their living room and then crying like babies when somebody suggests nobody wants to listen to it.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkwaters
    I know where you're coming from. Sometimes Joe seems so busy cramming as many notes in as possible that it can be exhausting, however...……. I love his Unforgettable album. So tasteful and elegant and a beautiful tone. Ms. darkwaters is a big fan of this album and always remarks on it when it's on the stereo.
    Just a note. The reason "Songs for Ellen" and "Unforgettable" are so different from Joe Pass' other work is that... he was far gone with cancer and dying Those sessions were in 1992. He was gone in 1994. I was regularly corresponding with him during those years, spoke with him on the phone about a week before he passed. I have the video of the last note he played on guitar. He stops and says "I can't do this anymore." It makes you weep.

    Those tracks were all he could manage to play physically. He no longer had the strength to play the steel strings and get the attack he was known for. He had to go low-tension nylon.

    So I don't like to compare those albums with his others, because it feels like saying "I liked Joe Pass while he was dying better than when he was full of life."

    I will always remember his humanity, his humor, his generosity toward me as a genuinely mediocre player, the wisdom and advice he gave. I will never forget the electric shock that ran down my spine the first time I heard him play "Stompin' at Savoy" on the Virtuoso Live album and couldn't believe someone could play like that.

    When I hear Songs for Ellen and Unforgettable, all I can feel is sadness and loss. It's also true that Joe Pass, nearly dead, on an acoustic nylon-string guitar, could outplay most players at the top of their game with their best gear.

    It's easy to pluck the lion's whiskers and say "he ain't so tough" when he's gone.

  14. #88

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    I need to say that Joe and Wes were such giants because they were just a few of the guitarists enjoyed and respected as masters outside of the guitar brotherhood. They were so well known because their superb musicality and virtuosity was enjoyed and respected by so many. Not just by a bunch of guitar nerds.

  15. #89

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    No-one has posted ‘Django’ yet - this is one of my favourite tracks by Joe:


  16. #90

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    I must post one thing by Wes Montgomery. This is so soulful and atmospheric. It’s not about playing a million notes. I’d have thought if you like Grant Green, you can appreciate this.


  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig
    I am no jazz musician, I've said as much in this thread and in others. But I have played violin all my life, and to a reasonable standard. I played classical guitar all the way through school but lost interest in my 20s.
    Quote Originally Posted by padraig
    Like many people with a background in classical music, I find jazz difficult. Incomprehensible at times.
    Classical and Jazz are similar to French and German. Just because you've learned, understand French does not mean you understand German even you have great sense of language. The same is true about literacy. Just because you have great literacy of French culture that does not mean you also have German literacy. Recognizing this can save one to make extraordinary statements about a territory what may not fully known.

    ***

    It comes with time, and repeated listening. If you are open, and you can find minimal enjoyment of listening jazz, gradually, but surely after 1000s hours you will have the same regarding jazz, what you have now in classical music. You can pick your heroes, not necessary Joe Pass of course.

  18. #92

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    I once was in a masterclass of a very good player (quite well-known but it does not really matter)... and there was some part of discussion about players and some of the students talked first about Benson that he is good bit all that pop-stuff etc. and about Joe approximately something like the OP here...

    and this player answered: wel.. yes... you know... maybe ... hm (he kept silence for a minute)... you know..
    maybe you are right..
    maybe I somehow even agree with you... . but...
    let us just not touch George and Joe...

    If I think backwards they gave me at least a few of the happiest moments in my musical experience...
    so I just do not want to say anything about what you are talking about ... let's just put it aside and that's it

  19. #93

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    "YouTube is full of amateur bedroom players knocking out tastier licks than Wes."

    A tribute to all of those amateur bedroom players, wherever they may be. Good luck to you!


  20. #94

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    Examples of non-guitar players who like Joe Pass: Oscar Peterson and Ella Fitzgerald. But since Cardi B outsells both of them, their opinions aren't worth much.

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by djelley
    Examples of non-guitar players who like Joe Pass: Oscar Peterson and Ella Fitzgerald. But since Cardi B outsells both of them, their opinions aren't worth much.
    This is a good one :-). Actually (based on what my Spotify say) Cardi B or more:

    Billie Eilish outsells

    Joe Pass: 196x
    Oscar Peterson: 40x
    Ella Fitzgerald: 17 times (this is not so bad)

    I do not want hijack this thread but what is really sad:

    Jesse van Ruller: 22500x :-(
    Jonathan Kreisberg: 4500x
    Peter Bernstein: 3200x

    Regarding JVR, Kreisberg and Bernstein maybe the results are a bit better in reality if we add their recording under other leaders, which Spotify does not credit under their names.

  22. #96

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    Examples of non-guitar players who like Joe Pass: Oscar Peterson and Ella Fitzgerald. But since Cardi B outsells both of them, their opinions aren't worth much.
    well... they all were regular members of Norman Granz enterprise.
    Nothing wrong about it though of course...

    Joe is one of the well-known jazz guitarists not only by other jazz musicians but also by non-jazz players...
    most of my classical friends when I say jazz guitar think (ever of anything ever) of 'oh .. Joe Pass?' ... though for me personally Joe was never a principle influence of figure in jazz guitar.

    But I think he is so much accepted partly becasuse his technique is much more conventional from point of view of classical guitar.
    And his approach to 'arranging' tunes in my opinion is more 'concieveable' for a classically trained musicias.

    Wes looks much more strange and unorthodoxal to them...

    Another point.. I think this Norm Granz' Jazz at The... thing.. and his other projects ...
    it brought a lot of quite specific influence on jazz world into some specifique audience...
    Not all the players played in it (and not only becaus Granz did not want them to), I would say that not all the players could fit the conception of it.

    And as a result his enterprise also promoted some of its participants among some special audience, it made their name known even in the circles where for example people have not so many ideas about jazz, made thme to some degree protoganists of jazz outside jazz worlds.

    Of course there were lots of players who worked with Granz but I am speaking only about a few for whom this colaboration became really influential for the whole career.

  23. #97

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    Mr Padraig
    you are under arrest by order of the jazz police.
    Report immediately to the NY jazz prison,waiting for the judgement.
    The caution to remain free is 1000000$
    You will be judged in the next few months.

    EmilP,investigating judge against jazz crimes

  24. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by padraig
    And its sanctimonious nonsense like this that puts young people off getting involved in jazz at all.
    I completely agree with this statement. Jazz is waaaaay too full of reverence for idols today. It’s like a church where one goes to worship saints. Living musical forms need a certain amount of (a lot of) critical re-evaluation to continually strir up new ideas and uproot old ones. In the 1960s when jazz was more of a thriving art form a player like Kessell, for example was less respected than he is today because the new wave of young players felt he was old school and out of touch. Today one finds (in large part but not exclusively) not a living breathing changing art form in jazz so much as a space for worshiping the Gods Of ancient times.

  25. #99

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    One forgets that jazz, like most things, is an evolving art. In the old days those guys were breaking new ground. Nowadays it's taken for granted and they're regarded as old hat, etc etc.

    Which isn't fair at all. One may as well slate the old masters for not being 'imaginative' like Picasso, Turner or Van Gogh. It doesn't work like that.

  26. #100

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    Well, different strokes really!

    Herb Ellis said in a video interview that Joe Pass was his favorite guitarist.

    my favorite jazz guitar record of the month is “Two For The Road” by Herb & Joe.

    Brilliant jazz guitar Duo playing, they balance each other beautifully, and the interplay is remarkable.

    Joe was really the 180 opposite of the economical Jim Hall style... “less is more” thing.

    With Joe “More-Is-More” and he’s very passionate about it.

    Barney Kessell is perhaps the greatest of that generation, a consumate guitarist, solo, trio, combo, studio, etc.

    But sometimes he got caught up in his sweep & blur picking thing, which I love, but maybe not for everyone.

    There again I really like Herb, Joe, Barney, Tal, HR, & Wes. Naturally after the founding fathers Django, Eddie, Charlie.

    So different strokes, Joe may have been a bit busy & complex for passive listening, by neophytes.

    An acquired taste really. There again so was Tal... like an abstract painting.

    Let ‘em listen to those cool Johnny Smith records on Royal Roost, or late Wes’ pop records on A&M.

    I love those too...

    Cheers, JT