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  1. #151

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    Examples of non-guitar players who like Joe Pass: Oscar Peterson and Ella Fitzgerald. But since Cardi B outsells both of them, their opinions aren't worth much.
    well... they all were regular members of Norman Granz enterprise.
    Nothing wrong about it though of course...

    Joe is one of the well-known jazz guitarists not only by other jazz musicians but also by non-jazz players...
    most of my classical friends when I say jazz guitar think (ever of anything ever) of 'oh .. Joe Pass?' ... though for me personally Joe was never a principle influence of figure in jazz guitar.

    But I think he is so much accepted partly becasuse his technique is much more conventional from point of view of classical guitar.
    And his approach to 'arranging' tunes in my opinion is more 'concieveable' for a classically trained musicias.

    Wes looks much more strange and unorthodoxal to them...

    Another point.. I think this Norm Granz' Jazz at The... thing.. and his other projects ...
    it brought a lot of quite specific influence on jazz world into some specifique audience...
    Not all the players played in it (and not only becaus Granz did not want them to), I would say that not all the players could fit the conception of it.

    And as a result his enterprise also promoted some of its participants among some special audience, it made their name known even in the circles where for example people have not so many ideas about jazz, made thme to some degree protoganists of jazz outside jazz worlds.

    Of course there were lots of players who worked with Granz but I am speaking only about a few for whom this colaboration became really influential for the whole career.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #152

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    Mr Padraig
    you are under arrest by order of the jazz police.
    Report immediately to the NY jazz prison,waiting for the judgement.
    The caution to remain free is 1000000$
    You will be judged in the next few months.

    EmilP,investigating judge against jazz crimes

  4. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    I don't see that though, John. What I see is other guitarists fawning over it. And that's partly my point. That outside of guitar circles this stuff isn't highly rated.

    And I posed the question much earlier in the thread, how many none guitarist jazz fans actually put solo Joe Pass albums on for pleasure?

    Do we rate it highly because as guitarists we know how technically challenging it is? Because we aspire to have that level of facility on our particular instrument? Or do we rate it as a piece of music?

    Surely that's the acid test? Do people want to listen to it or not? Even plenty of people here are saying no, they've not got much time for his solo stuff.
    Always wrong, always ridiculous, always digging yourself deeper into that hole of ego and ignorance. Joe filled large halls worldwide as a soloist, for years. Never played the same set twice, rarely played the same tune twice in the same key. Always swung, always made music on the highest level. Sold lots of records, including all the solo albums. You're a weak and silly troll.

  5. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    And its sanctimonious nonsense like this that puts young people off getting involved in jazz at all.
    I completely agree with this statement. Jazz is waaaaay too full of reverence for idols today. It’s like a church where one goes to worship saints. Living musical forms need a certain amount of (a lot of) critical re-evaluation to continually strir up new ideas and uproot old ones. In the 1960s when jazz was more of a thriving art form a player like Kessell, for example was less respected than he is today because the new wave of young players felt he was old school and out of touch. Today one finds (in large part but not exclusively) not a living breathing changing art form in jazz so much as a space for worshiping the Gods Of ancient times.

  6. #155

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    One forgets that jazz, like most things, is an evolving art. In the old days those guys were breaking new ground. Nowadays it's taken for granted and they're regarded as old hat, etc etc.

    Which isn't fair at all. One may as well slate the old masters for not being 'imaginative' like Picasso, Turner or Van Gogh. It doesn't work like that.

  7. #156

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    Well, different strokes really!

    Herb Ellis said in a video interview that Joe Pass was his favorite guitarist.

    my favorite jazz guitar record of the month is “Two For The Road” by Herb & Joe.

    Brilliant jazz guitar Duo playing, they balance each other beautifully, and the interplay is remarkable.

    Joe was really the 180 opposite of the economical Jim Hall style... “less is more” thing.

    With Joe “More-Is-More” and he’s very passionate about it.

    Barney Kessell is perhaps the greatest of that generation, a consumate guitarist, solo, trio, combo, studio, etc.

    But sometimes he got caught up in his sweep & blur picking thing, which I love, but maybe not for everyone.

    There again I really like Herb, Joe, Barney, Tal, HR, & Wes. Naturally after the founding fathers Django, Eddie, Charlie.

    So different strokes, Joe may have been a bit busy & complex for passive listening, by neophytes.

    An acquired taste really. There again so was Tal... like an abstract painting.

    Let ‘em listen to those cool Johnny Smith records on Royal Roost, or late Wes’ pop records on A&M.

    I love those too...

    Cheers, JT

  8. #157

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    The thing about Joe Pass, is that he broke new ground with the Virtuoso record in 1973.

    Maybe there were a few solo jazz guitar records at the time.

    I had just started college, Fall 1973, studying music and jazz guitar...

    But when Virtuoso LP came out it blew everyone’s mind: the solo guitar format, much of it acoustic on a 175, such speed and clarity, constant movement, and reharmonization, melody stated clearly, key changes, all done LIVE & improvised, etc etc etc... true virtuosity!!!

    and then several subsequent records in the same format...

    so fast he could keep up with Oscar Peterson, but the perfect gentleman accompaniment for Ella.

    I saw Joe numerous times in the 80s & early 90s, would get a table a close as possible where i could see his hands.

    finally got to know him, interviewed him for a local music rag, an even took a lesson from him.

    (not just strumming & sustaining pretty chords with the melody and a few fills like many other guitarists.)

    today i still listen to that Virtuoso record, but i can only take 2-3 tunes because it’s so rich with information & ideas.

    not exactly background wallpaper music, very engaging & demanding to listen to...

    and he revived the popularity of a lot of those old standards from the 30s, My Old Flame, Night & Day, Stella...

    I listen to jazz guitar records every morning when i’m cooking breakfast, Joe, Herb, Barney, Kenny Burrell, HR, Wes, Django...

    then i’m ready for the day... working with other peoples music at our studio.

    best, JT

  9. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by VanEpsInDeChirico View Post
    I completely agree with this statement. Jazz is waaaaay too full of reverence for idols today. It’s like a church where one goes to worship saints. Living musical forms need a certain amount of (a lot of) critical re-evaluation to continually strir up new ideas and uproot old ones. In the 1960s when jazz was more of a thriving art form a player like Kessell, for example was less respected than he is today because the new wave of young players felt he was old school and out of touch. Today one finds (in large part but not exclusively) not a living breathing changing art form in jazz so much as a space for worshiping the Gods Of ancient times.
    Ridiculous.

  10. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by VanEpsInDeChirico View Post
    I completely agree with this statement. Jazz is waaaaay too full of reverence for idols today. It’s like a church where one goes to worship saints. Living musical forms need a certain amount of (a lot of) critical re-evaluation to continually strir up new ideas and uproot old ones. In the 1960s when jazz was more of a thriving art form a player like Kessell, for example was less respected than he is today because the new wave of young players felt he was old school and out of touch. Today one finds (in large part but not exclusively) not a living breathing changing art form in jazz so much as a space for worshiping the Gods Of ancient times.
    Is it that different in other genres? It seems to me it's even worse there. Clapton, Page, Hendrix, the Beatles, Elvis, etc. etc. Talking about the Gods of ancient times ...

    By the way, there's LOTS of modern jazz (guitar) being produced these days too. The fact that many of these players are not discussed so often here does not mean that they do not exist.

    I find lots of classic pop and rock music totally obsolete sounding. All this stuff is equally dated as bebop - the 1960s were over 50 years ago - but nobody is complaining there. Jazz always seems to get the exclusive flak of regurgitating the past. Classical music is not dead and jazz is????

    50s rock and roll, 60s beat music, 70s symphonic rock, 80s new age etc. etc. It's ALL over and done with but people still seem to like it. Same for bebop. No difference.

    Charlie Parker is no deader than Bach, John Lennon and Elvis IMHO. He is just as relevant. Only not so popular.

    DB

  11. #160

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    I won't take on the OP's premise about Joe Pass because enough folks have done so already.

    However, the recent posts about jazz in general in this thread reminded me of a brief discussion I had with Joe Pass between sets at a supper club he played in my area years ago. I asked his take on chord melody and he said two things:

    1. Learn melodies. He said that students of jazz guitar are so focused on learning all these chords that they forget about the melody. We should be able to play most any melody, just as folks sing along with their favorite tunes. That comes first and then start adding chords.
    2. Play the tunes you grew up with. He said that the tunes he plays (played) are what were on the radio when he was growing up - the popular music of the day. We have different music to play that we grew up with. It is the music we really know well because we heard it so often, and during our formative years. It becomes a part of us, and that is what we want to express.

    Clearly, we all will have our own take on these ideas, whether we agree, disagree, don't care, etc. I just wanted to get these out there for consideration.

    Tony

  12. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
    I won't take on the OP's premise about Joe Pass because enough folks have done so already.

    However, the recent posts about jazz in general in this thread reminded me of a brief discussion I had with Joe Pass between sets at a supper club he played in my area years ago. I asked his take on chord melody and he said two things:

    1. Learn melodies. He said that students of jazz guitar are so focused on learning all these chords that they forget about the melody. We should be able to play most any melody, just as folks sing along with their favorite tunes. That comes first and then start adding chords.
    2. Play the tunes you grew up with. He said that the tunes he plays (played) are what were on the radio when he was growing up - the popular music of the day. We have different music to play that we grew up with. It is the music we really know well because we heard it so often, and during our formative years. It becomes a part of us, and that is what we want to express.

    Clearly, we all will have our own take on these ideas, whether we agree, disagree, don't care, etc. I just wanted to get these out there for consideration.

    Tony
    I couldn't agree more and I think I remember him also saying the same thing in an interview somewhere. I believe I also remember (I think) him saying in an interview that he didn't consider himself a jazz guitarist but as a guitarist who used 'jazz' chords in his playing. To me, the melody is the most important part of a tune - it's what you remember after you hear someone play it, not 15 choruses of improvisation built on the same harmonic structure. I guess that's why I'm drawn to chord melody instead of improvisation for it's own sake.

  13. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
    I won't take on the OP's premise about Joe Pass because enough folks have done so already.

    However, the recent posts about jazz in general in this thread reminded me of a brief discussion I had with Joe Pass between sets at a supper club he played in my area years ago. I asked his take on chord melody and he said two things:

    1. Learn melodies. He said that students of jazz guitar are so focused on learning all these chords that they forget about the melody. We should be able to play most any melody, just as folks sing along with their favorite tunes. That comes first and then start adding chords.
    2. Play the tunes you grew up with. He said that the tunes he plays (played) are what were on the radio when he was growing up - the popular music of the day. We have different music to play that we grew up with. It is the music we really know well because we heard it so often, and during our formative years. It becomes a part of us, and that is what we want to express.

    Clearly, we all will have our own take on these ideas, whether we agree, disagree, don't care, etc. I just wanted to get these out there for consideration.

    Tony
    Hello. New member here, 1st post. Long time lurker. Was browsing the chord melody forum and found this thread. It really struck home. A few days ago, on another forum, I posted a similar sentiment to the OP, in the context of a discussion. I had chosen my words poorly and was quickly attacked and told I couldn't hear, didn't have the musical or technical ability to understand and would never reach that level. Maybe that's true. But, to be derided publicly by a complete stranger was a bit unnerving. I was simply trying to say that while I appreciated that JP was a great musician, I generally prefer to listen to other players.

    When I read the above post, I had to respond. What great advice! After five plus decades as a student of guitar, I have recently gone back to where I started and have spent time to really learn some standards and Great American Songbook tunes. Also, I have been learning tunes for a new group and a lot of them are tunes I heard as a kid, back when radio just played music and wasn't subdivided into multiple niche markets.

    Not only has Joes words given me a bit of validation for my own current pursuit, they have given me a new appreciation for him as a player and reason to go back and maybe study his playing a little deeper.

    I get where the OP is coming from, but unfortunately on any forum, you have to present opinions very carefully or face the backlash.


    Thanks for reading.

  14. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitlifer View Post
    Hello. New member here, 1st post. Long time lurker. Was browsing the chord melody forum and found this thread. It really struck home. A few days ago, on another forum, I posted a similar sentiment to the OP, in the context of a discussion. I had chosen my words poorly and was quickly attacked and told I couldn't hear, didn't have the musical or technical ability to understand and would never reach that level. Maybe that's true. But, to be derided publicly by a complete stranger was a bit unnerving. I was simply trying to say that while I appreciated that JP was a great musician, I generally prefer to listen to other players.

    When I read the above post, I had to respond. What great advice! After five plus decades as a student of guitar, I have recently gone back to where I started and have spent time to really learn some standards and Great American Songbook tunes. Also, I have been learning tunes for a new group and a lot of them are tunes I heard as a kid, back when radio just played music and wasn't subdivided into multiple niche markets.

    Not only has Joes words given me a bit of validation for my own current pursuit, they have given me a new appreciation for him as a player and reason to go back and maybe study his playing a little deeper.

    I get where the OP is coming from, but unfortunately on any forum, you have to present opinions very carefully or face the backlash.


    Thanks for reading.
    Forums are an interesting side of human nature. Not in this forum, but in some others, I have been quite surprised at the backlash I have gotten on occasion. I wouldn't make a post like the OP did here, so I am not sure why I had gotten backlash at those times. Whether I agree with the OP or not is really not particularly important, but I wouldn't say something like that here if I did. If it was important to me, I would probably choose to pose a question about it to hear/read what other forums members thought. I think that would lead to interesting discussion, rather than challenging them with something that really does come across as something of a troll due to the chosen subject line and the wording.

    What I am much more interested in with a forum such as this, would be information on how I can continue to stay motivated to improve, how to improve, where to get what I need to improve, and maybe suggestions as to who to listen to for more music to educate my ears. Arguing about who likes some particular artist seems not worth my time, but that is just my own personal opinion. I rarely post in this forum, preferring instead to read and learn from others.

    The guitar is an interesting thing. We can fall in and fall out with it over time. I am coming back to it after spending time with the piano for several years. This thread brought back to my mind, Joe Pass' advice, and like you, it has been helpful in solidifying my approach to the instrument. I am truly glad that you got something from this thread.

    Tony

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitlifer View Post

    [snip]

    I get where the OP is coming from, but unfortunately on any forum, you have to present opinions very carefully or face the backlash.


    Thanks for reading.
    I'd say here instead, when you are posting on a forum where members have a vast knowledge and experience, and strong opinions growing out of those, do not carelessly throw out a generalized dismissal of a widely recognized and respected player and expect that to turn out well. The OP did not get "backlash" but got a serious and thorough rebuttal based on a lot of experience and information expressed by players, a great many of whose accomplishments merit respect.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  16. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by VanEpsInDeChirico View Post
    Jazz is waaaaay too full of reverence for idols today. It’s like a church where one goes to worship saints. Living musical forms need a certain amount of (a lot of) critical re-evaluation to continually strir up new ideas and uproot old ones. In the 1960s when jazz was more of a thriving art form a player like Kessell, for example was less respected than he is today because the new wave of young players felt he was old school and out of touch. Today one finds (in large part but not exclusively) not a living breathing changing art form in jazz so much as a space for worshiping the Gods Of ancient times.
    Why single out jazz? There is some of this in every art form (da Vinci, Beethoven, anyone?) And in every genre of music. Have a look at the periodically updated Rollingstone best guitarist poll and it's inevitably people like Hendrix, Clapton, Van Halen, Beck, etc. at the top. Hardly anyone under the age of 60 and a good chunk of those at the top of the poll are retired or dead.
    Beauty is as close to terror as we can well endure. -Rainer Maria Rilke

  17. #166

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    I see that many commented saying Jazz and Classical and Rock/Pop music are similar in that respecting traditions and the past idols are part of the culture and foundation for success. It certainly is in Jazz and Classical, but I'm not sure it applies the same way to Rock/Pop.

    I think generally in Pop music the most valuable quality was uniqueness. Moreover, having an attitude of a rebel and disrespecting the past was more appreciated by the fans.

    When I was a kid and made my first home recording of a Led Zep song, everything note for note and accurate recreation, I showed to a well known critic and DJ (that was in the early 90's). His response was like yea good job and all, but if you thinking of a career as a rock musician showing your respect for the past won't take you anywhere. The young fans want new, fresh stuff, and who cares about the idols of the past... That put things in perspective for me.

  18. #167

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    Elsewhere, in related news from the most enlightened circles of our nation,
    Spray Cheese is at last beginning to receive the respect it deserves as
    one of America's premier contributions to world culture:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.88ead1a4648f

  19. #168

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    I can see why Joe Pass' chord melody playing wouldn't be for everybody. It's certainly different from more conventional approaches. I like it for it's freedom and because listening to it, I get the sense of an artist going for broke. There's always a sense of tightrope dancing with Pass, and I love him for it. In fact, that's one of the things that attracted me to Pass from the moment I heard him. There's a sense of chance taking that had an energy I could understand as a teen mostly listening to rock. It also means that his playing is in some ways warts and all, not as smoothly elegant and seemingly effortless as some of his peers and I can see why that's not for everybody. But I like that. There's a mensch there.

    Otoh I think it's perfectly valid to not like every aspect or everything a player do or did. To my ears, some of the things Pass did with NHØP come across to me as horse racing in the Oscar Peterson vein. I admire the craft, I don't like it as music.

  20. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post

    2. Play the tunes you grew up with.
    Shoot! I'm dead in the water then.

  21. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Howzabopping View Post
    Shoot! I'm dead in the water then.
    There are folks playing tunes from the 60s and 70s with varying degrees of success. However, the Great American Songbook lends itself so well to this style of playing.

    Anyway, with any advice, we have to "take what we need and leave the rest". I can understand the spirit of what Joe Pass was saying, but would not toss out the "baby with the bath water", so to speak.

    Tony

  22. #171

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    FWIW, my wife doesn't like jazz guitar, possibly the result of hearing me all the time, but loves Joe Pass solo and also the albums with Ella.
    Beauty is as close to terror as we can well endure. -Rainer Maria Rilke

  23. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    FWIW, my wife doesn't like jazz guitar, possibly the result of hearing me all the time, but loves Joe Pass solo and also the albums with Ella.
    This is purely my own opinion, but if anybody doesn't like listening to Joe Pass' earlier "Virtuoso" series (there were 4 of them), introduce that person to his last solo albums "Unforgettable" and "Songs For Ella". Beautiful stuff.

    Of course, those albums with Ella Fitzgerald are special too.

    Tony

  24. #173

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    I have always thought his solo album Blues for Fred was a high-water mark both of his chops, his taste, his selection of tunes, and his tone. It's just (to me) a perfect album.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  25. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    I have always thought his solo album Blues for Fred was a high-water mark both of his chops, his taste, his selection of tunes, and his tone. It's just (to me) a perfect album.
    I think that his last two solo albums might be more "Accessible" to the casual listener, but coud be wrong about that. I do know that folks who aren't "jazzers" seem to respond favorably to those albums when I put them on.

    Blues For Fred is a great album.

    I am glad to see this thread turning into more of a "Joe Pass appreciation" thread. I like that tone much better.

    Tony

  26. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
    I think that his last two solo albums might be more "Accessible" to the casual listener, but coud be wrong about that. I do know that folks who aren't "jazzers" seem to respond favorably to those albums when I put them on.

    Blues For Fred is a great album.

    I am glad to see this thread turning into more of a "Joe Pass appreciation" thread. I like that tone much better.

    Tony
    The last two albums were recorded when Joe was actively dying from cancer. He barely had the strength to play, so it's ironic that people find the music so appealing, then again, maybe not.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  27. #176

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    I admired Joe Pass without enjoying him a whole lot.

    I saw him perform in a small room once toward the end of his career. His guitar was plugged into a Shure Vocal Master PA - a low-budget system provided by the promoter. Very hard to get a good tone out of that system, and he didn't.

    Conceivably they could have provided a JC-120 or a Twin Reverb, either of which would have sounded infinitely better, if Mr. Pass had requested it. This said to me that he didn't care a great deal about how he sounded.

    Of course musical content is more important than tone, but wow...

  28. #177

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    All a matter of one's preferences.

    Technically Joe is superior but to my ear he plays too busily, meaning you don't have to fill the interval between the melody notes with as many fill notes as humanly possible. Oscar Peterson does the same thing on the piano. Both technically brilliant, but too busy, too many notes … especially if accompanying a singer, i.e., check out this video of Peterson accompanying Nat Cole: Peterson is way overplaying.



    Sometimes less is more.

  29. #178

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    Never liked his tone! Herb Ellis even less. Sorry!
    Unfortunately in the jazz world guitar is considered pretty low in the pecking order. I heard someone once say that the only significant jazz guitar recording ever was The Bridge by Sonny Rollins (Jim Hall). There are important guitar recordings in the history of jazz guitar but only guitarists think they are important. Horns, keyboards, percussion, and usually a string bass will always dominate. It is what it is guys.

  30. #179

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    Joe's recorded tone ranged from perfect to abysmal.

    Never thought the bad tones were HIS fault.

    Joe's recorded PLAYING (you know, the thing that actually matters) was NEVER subpar. Never.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  31. #180

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    Guitarbuddy, of course you are right.

  32. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by md54 View Post
    Never liked his tone! Herb Ellis even less. Sorry!
    Unfortunately in the jazz world guitar is considered pretty low in the pecking order. I heard someone once say that the only significant jazz guitar recording ever was The Bridge by Sonny Rollins (Jim Hall). There are important guitar recordings in the history of jazz guitar but only guitarists think they are important. Horns, keyboards, percussion, and usually a string bass will always dominate. It is what it is guys.
    This is just wrong.

    Peruse any of a dozen "top 100 jazz albums of all time" or the like, and you'll find typically Django Reinhardt, Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, likely also Grant Green and Pat Metheny. Obviously people who are not just guitarists think at least these guitarists are important.

    Your last sentence is more arrogant for being ignorant.

    Joe Pass' Virtuoso far outsold every other title released by Pablo in the history of that label. Evidently people spent money on an album that was not important? I know, Ella Fitzgerald toured and recorded with a lone saxophone player.... no...
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  33. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbuddy View Post
    The irony was the mix out front, thanks to the house production crew, sounded a bus station during rush hour - it was awful.
    I am gonna derail the thread here. Honestly, I have never really cared that much about dialing in a "tone" in a live setting, and I think this really hits home why: there are waaaaaaay too many variables in how things sound to try and control it. An empty big club sounds completely different than the same club filled with people, that restaurant is gonna sound way different when it's crowded than when it's a rainy wednesday, and the sound will even vary quite a lot depending on where people are sitting or standing.

    I'm not suggesting that the solution is not to care at all, or that it's silly to worry about, but I do think consistent "tone" is a fiction in almost any live setting most of us gig in.

  34. #183

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    Anyone who cares about tone over musicianship isn't listening.

  35. #184

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    Don't they sort this stuff out at the sound check?

  36. #185

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    I recently finished playing a musical (Godspell) for a theater company for which I play in the house band. The last number had us jamming out on a vamp that featured me playing with distortion. The sound guy insisted on putting me through the PA system, which wasn't made for distorted electric guitar.
    Some guy came running up to the band asking us where the trumpet player was. I told him it was me playing the guitar. He said, "I could've sworn that was a trumpet!"

  37. #186

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    I saw Benny Goodman (at a jazz festival) and Phil Woods (at Ronnie Scott’s) both refuse to play with any kind of PA or amplification, presumably because of all the issues mentioned above. Their groups both sounded great playing ‘all-acoustic’.

    However it has to be said that people at the back of the festival could not hear Benny, understandably they were annoyed! (luckily I was right at the front). Good band too, had Scott Hamilton and Chris Flory in the line-up.

  38. #187

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    Guitarbuddy made a good point, that Mr. Pass's amplified sound may have been beyond his control at the show I saw. My apologies.

    However, let's all avoid using antique Shure Vocal Master PA systems to amplify our jazz music. For me, it was disconcerting to hear the great Joe Pass with the scratchy, harsh, midrangey tonal quality of a cheap answering machine. Forty lashes to whoever provided this crummy system.

    (Sometime in the early 1980s a promoter I knew asked if she could use my 2x10 65 watt Music Man amp for a few shows - she was bringing Tal Farlow and Herb Ellis to town on different dates. I told her that my price was, I get to meet them. These were terrific shows, and they sounded great through this excellent amp - I was delighted to meet these gentlemen, and proud that I could help them out.)

  39. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    Ridiculous.

    Yes, and we all know that there is no hero worship in rock and other popular musics! :-/

  40. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    I recently finished playing a musical (Godspell) for a theater company for which I play in the house band. The last number had us jamming out on a vamp that featured me playing with distortion. The sound guy insisted on putting me through the PA system, which wasn't made for distorted electric guitar.
    Some guy came running up to the band asking us where the trumpet player was. I told him it was me playing the guitar. He said, "I could've sworn that was a trumpet!"
    I think we just answered the question of how to sound like a horn player!

  41. #190

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    Can’t be arsed to read the whole thread but it does seem that Padraig at present lacks the rhythmic awareness to distinguish really swinging playing from merely good time.

    Don’t mean to be a dick, it took me ages to understand that difference myself. I listen to music totally differently to the way I did 20 years ago and that’s a beautiful thing. There’s probably players I don’t get now that I’ll come around to in a couple of decades.

    In terms of technical standards and there’s been a sea change in recent years, everyone is amazing now... but in terms of anyone swinging like Wes for instance? Pace all the excellent youtube players but I hope they’d acknowledge themselves that Wes is pretty much the high mountain top, along with Grant, Charlie C and so on and Joe of course.

    Plus the music has changed even when people try to copy the past, they always get it different because we no longer live in that environment. Which is cool, because it means jazz is showing some signs of life...
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-02-2019 at 04:22 AM.

  42. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    I see that many commented saying Jazz and Classical and Rock/Pop music are similar in that respecting traditions and the past idols are part of the culture and foundation for success. It certainly is in Jazz and Classical, but I'm not sure it applies the same way to Rock/Pop.

    I think generally in Pop music the most valuable quality was uniqueness. Moreover, having an attitude of a rebel and disrespecting the past was more appreciated by the fans.

    When I was a kid and made my first home recording of a Led Zep song, everything note for note and accurate recreation, I showed to a well known critic and DJ (that was in the early 90's). His response was like yea good job and all, but if you thinking of a career as a rock musician showing your respect for the past won't take you anywhere. The young fans want new, fresh stuff, and who cares about the idols of the past... That put things in perspective for me.
    He may have said that but he was obviously taking out his arse.

    The existence of rock music owes itself to an attempt to recreate 1950s Chicago blues by spotty white boys from the Home Counties.

    What the fans care about doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the musicians.

    I would say that there is a healthy synthesis to be had between imitation and innovation. The latter is often less a result of conscious activity and actually more often just ‘getting it wrong’ but going with it.

    Nowadays people are better at getting it right. Which can be amazing to hear.



    But you gotta ask - do you really want to be in the 1930s or just a fantasy version of it? Either way it’s not the present....

    I blame Transcribe .

  43. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Anyone who cares about tone over musicianship isn't listening.
    Tell that to a singer.

  44. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by docsteve View Post
    Tell that to a singer.
    Actually, I'd say the same thing. Someone can have a lovely mellifluous voice but if there's no real musicianship there it won't amount to much.

  45. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    He may have said that but he was obviously taking out his arse.

    The existence of rock music owes itself to an attempt to recreate 1950s Chicago blues by spotty white boys from the Home Counties.

    What the fans care about doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the musicians.

    I would say that there is a healthy synthesis to be had between imitation and innovation. The latter is often less a result of conscious activity and actually more often just ‘getting it wrong’ but going with it.

    Nowadays people are better at getting it right. Which can be amazing to hear.



    But you gotta ask - do you really want to be in the 1930s or just a fantasy version of it? Either way it’s not the present....

    I blame Transcribe .
    No I think he was right, at that time it made sense. So much cool new shit was happenning! These days I dunno, maybe playing really old music is the coolest. Many kids would agree too.

    Im not a fan of museum approach though. It's a dead end artistically.

  46. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    He may have said that but he was obviously taking out his arse.

    The existence of rock music owes itself to an attempt to recreate 1950s Chicago blues by spotty white boys from the Home Counties.
    Isn't amazing how many spotty Brits there were at the Spanish Castle in 1960 or Newport in '65? And of course "Cell Block #9" was in Newgate Prison. And who knew Link Wray was from the Home Counties? And if only Buddy Guy and Magic Sam had heard some Chicago Blues? I bet they sure could've rocked. And that Hendrix fellow. It sure was great when he came home to England from his sojourn in the colonies. And too bad all those San Francisco psychedelic pranksters didn't have electric guitars until waaaaaaay after the Spotty Brits plugged in.


    Go west, young man.

    John

  47. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Actually, I'd say the same thing. Someone can have a lovely mellifluous voice but if there's no real musicianship there it won't amount to much.
    I've heard plenty singers with a more mellifluous voice & wider range than Billie Holiday, they're not always the ones I listen to...

  48. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    Isn't amazing how many spotty Brits there were at the Spanish Castle in 1960 or Newport in '65? And of course "Cell Block #9" was in Newgate Prison. And who knew Link Wray was from the Home Counties? And if only Buddy Guy and Magic Sam had heard some Chicago Blues? I bet they sure could've rocked. And that Hendrix fellow. It sure was great when he came home to England from his sojourn in the colonies. And too bad all those San Francisco psychedelic pranksters didn't have electric guitars until waaaaaaay after the Spotty Brits plugged in.


    Go west, young man.

    John
    San Francisco? Rock? Don't make me laugh. (Although my little sister has a puzzling fondness for the Airplane. No idea why.)

    LA, maybe.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-02-2019 at 05:46 PM.

  49. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    San Francisco? Rock? Don't make me laugh. (Although my little sister has a puzzling fondness for the Airplane. No idea why.)

    LA, maybe.
    The first rock band out of San Francisco was Metallica, and that was in the 80s. Before that it was pretty dead. Greatful dead.
    Ha ha ha

  50. #199

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    Metallica?

    More like Wimptallica!

    Give me some Iron Maiden, AC/DC (no Guns and Poses for me), and I'll have a sabbath of my own--make it Black!

  51. #200

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    Metallica?

    More like Wimptallica!

    Give me some Iron Maiden, AC/DC (no Guns and Poses for me), and I'll have a sabbath of my own--make it Black!
    Ok then!

    We're just making a point that there was no rock in San Francisco to speak of. The bands you mention are all British. I love them too btw.