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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    I am no jazz musician, I've said as much in this thread and in others. But I have played violin all my life, and to a reasonable standard. I played classical guitar all the way through school but lost interest in my 20s. To say I have no idea of harmony or melodic concepts is just a cheap insult.

    Like many people with a background in classical music, I find jazz difficult. Incomprehensible at times. The matter isn't helped when it seems there's so much absolute twoddle written about it. Modes? I've never heard any classically trained musician talk about modes as anything other than an historical footnote. Yet jazz forums like this are full of it. I know a violinist who plays for a very well known symphony orchestra in the UK and I kid you not he says he doesn't even know the key signatures. He says he knew them once when he was a kid and had to pass theory exams but other than that, not a clue. He just plays the notes on the score. And I tell you what, it is astonishing to stand next to him, a foot away from the instrument and hear the quality of tone and the musicality he can get from even the most simple melody. Furthermore, I've never seen a piece of music that he's even had to stop to think about, just reads and plays like we read words on a page. Then I hear someone like Wes and yes I think, what's all the fuss about? Good at what he does maybe, good because he was an innovativor in his genre maybe, but not "great". Not "legendary" or "genius". These are not terms I would use.

    I dabble in playing jazz on the guitar and wish I was more competent. Likewise I'd love to be able to play jazz violin but I can do little more than play the heads of tunes and for improvising my approach is to embellish the melody whilst trying to keep it in time and with the right 'feel'.

    I know what sounds musical when I hear it though and that's enough to have an opinion in my book. Some of the solo work from Joe Pass does not sound musical to me. It sounds like somebody playing random notes with a very generous sense of rubato. If you like that then great, crack on.

    I'm willing to learn, I'm willing to accept my opinion is unpopular here. But I'm not willing to accept I'm a "troll" or that my opinion shouldn't count because I've not got a PhD in music theory.
    Based on your avowed background, level of musicianship, and attitude that you find jazz difficult and incomprehensible, it's almost impossible not to view your statements on this thread as trolling. There's nothing wrong with saying you don't like something. But what you say about Pass and Wes in the above comment just shows that you have absolutely no grasp of what you're listening to.

    To a point, that's fine. We all have stuff we don't get. There's no law that says you have to understand and like everything. So when you see other people getting great enjoyment out of something and expressing great esteem for it from positions of knowledge of and competence, and it just seems like noise to you, you might consider that it's a fault in your understanding. Or you could piss all over it, call it unmelodic random notes with no rhythm, and pat yourself on the back for bravely taking an unpopular stance. Your call, but one of those approaches is more likely than the other to lead to people calling you a troll. Guess which one.

    John

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  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post

    Like many people with a background in classical music, I find jazz difficult. Incomprehensible at times. The matter isn't helped when it seems there's so much absolute twoddle written about it. Modes? I've never heard any classically trained musician talk about modes as anything other than an historical footnote. Yet jazz forums like this are full of it. I know a violinist who plays for a very well known symphony orchestra in the UK and I kid you not he says he doesn't even know the key signatures. He says he knew them once when he was a kid and had to pass theory exams but other than that, not a clue. He just plays the notes on the score. And I tell you what, it is astonishing to stand next to him, a foot away from the instrument and hear the quality of tone and the musicality he can get from even the most simple melody. Furthermore, I've never seen a piece of music that he's even had to stop to think about, just reads and plays like we read words on a page. Then I hear someone like Wes and yes I think, what's all the fuss about? Good at what he does maybe, good because he was an innovativor in his genre maybe, but not "great". Not "legendary" or "genius". These are not terms I would use.

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbuddy View Post
    I've been a Metheny fan since the first note I heard, but frankly he was more or less on the back burner for me until fairly recently, and this is after one summer of playing a few gigs in a band doing all Metheny tunes and also performing two of his tunes with a college large jazz ensemble at the director's request. Yes, I knew he was great, but it's been in the last year that my appreciation reached a new level, because I've was gigging every week 1 1/2 hours away up in Indiana and had two of his albums on my phone, Trio 99/00 and The Unity Band, which I plugged into my car stereo and listened to on the way up. It's now my opinion that he's simply on another plane compared to almost every other guitarist and indeed most other jazz players. And of course, just like the reason we're all contributing to this thread, Metheny is one of the most dissed players ever for taking his own path and not playing how other people think he should sound.
    I had a long drive that I'd do a couple times a week when I was 18 (43 years ago!). I had a Charlie Parker cassette and I'd sing along to his playing. Did that for maybe a year and really got to know those tunes. One can really gain an appreciation when immersed like that.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  5. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    So when you see other people getting great enjoyment out of something and expressing great esteem for it from positions of knowledge of and competence, and it just seems like noise to you, you might consider that it's a fault in your understanding.
    I don't see that though, John. What I see is other guitarists fawning over it. And that's partly my point. That outside of guitar circles this stuff isn't highly rated.

    And I posed the question much earlier in the thread, how many none guitarist jazz fans actually put solo Joe Pass albums on for pleasure?

    Do we rate it highly because as guitarists we know how technically challenging it is? Because we aspire to have that level of facility on our particular instrument? Or do we rate it as a piece of music?

    Surely that's the acid test? Do people want to listen to it or not? Even plenty of people here are saying no, they've not got much time for his solo stuff.

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    I don't see that though, John. What I see is other guitarists fawning over it. And that's partly my point. That outside of guitar circles this stuff isn't highly rated.

    And I posed the question much earlier in the thread, how many none guitarist jazz fans actually put solo Joe Pass albums on for pleasure?

    Surely that's the acid test? Do people want to listen to it or not? Even plenty of people here are saying no, they've not got much time for his solo stuff.
    I think Joe is great but I haven't put any of his stuff on for a long time. To be honest, I seldom listen to traditional jazz at all (other than I try to listen to fellow forum members recordings that they post here). As close is I get is Robben Ford which I think many wouldn't consider to be jazz at all.

    I do play in a jazz style quite a bit, or at least attempt to.

    There was a time though when I listened to Joe Pass a lot. And, learning to play a Joe Pass chord melody really helped me appreciate him. Sometimes it requires a deep understanding to see the beauty of something.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    I don't see that though, John. What I see is other guitarists fawning over it. And that's partly my point. That outside of guitar circles this stuff isn't highly rated.
    Bullshit. You don't see it. That doesn't mean it (non-guitarist accolades for Pass) is not there.

    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    And I posed the question much earlier in the thread, how many none guitarist jazz fans actually put solo Joe Pass albums on for pleasure?

    Surely that's the acid test? Do people want to listen to it or not? Even plenty of people here are saying no, they've not got much time for his solo stuff.
    He played sold-out shows in big venues for 20 years. Hundreds, sometimes thousands, of people came to see him. The Virtuoso album was one of the top selling jazz albums of its time, a time when jazz actually sold records. It wasn't all guitar players.

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 05-14-2019 at 05:32 PM.

  8. #107
    B.S.

    The "tasty licks better than Wes" comment has never been addressed with any kind of example. Put up or shut up. The troll label is well deserved until there is SOME attempt at actually substantiating that asinine comment. It's 2019. Putting up a few dozen examples takes a couple of minutes if this is actually true. Where are the bedroom players examples?

    Joe and Wes don't major in "tasty licks" anyway. They mostly major in "tasty MULTIPLE choruses" the likes of which most modern players struggle to match after decades.

    I don't hear wankery here:

    I hear serving the melody over the improv. I hear a level of artistery which stands up pretty well, a couple of decades later. Again, multiple choruses without really "reaching" for ideas.

    Nor here:

    Multiple choruses of pure genius after pretty intimidating multi-chorus solos from great players preceding his.

    Screw tasty licks. Talk about sitting down with competent pros on piano/horn etc and not merely holding your own or staying alive...but delivering really compelling multiple choruses which each convey something special.

    Talk about taking the entire stage by yourself the way Pass does above and talk about the number of guitarists could do so as strongly as him, NOW - decades later.

    ...but put up the examples here. It's 2019, the peak of lazy-man's verification... Should be easy...
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 05-14-2019 at 03:21 PM.

  9. #108
    And you have a very low bar for the label "genius".
    Right. He replied within about a millisecond, without time to even listen to Wes's solo in the SHORTER of the posted clips.

    not a troll?

    I rest my case.
    YouTube is full of amateur bedroom players knocking out tastier licks than Wes.
    I'm sorry I got back in a conversation . It won't happen again.

    DNFTT

  10. #109

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    The OP is more confused than Scooby Doo! I don't think I seen more clueless poster here maybe ever. Great entertainment value!

  11. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk View Post
    When this kind of small epiphany happens it's one of the most rewarding things about this music for me. I also progress in my playing by a small series of leaps. The two go together.
    Absolutely agree. I've known English literature all my life.

    Reading Charles Lamb for the first time I was blown away that somebody could put so much truth into such a simple sentence. I sat and read the same sentence over and over, each time thinking why on earth has it taken me 40 years to discover this?

    His essay "On poetry in general", it's one of the best pieces of writing I've ever come across.

    Epiphany? It makes me wish I could be reborn and start over from there. Like I've wasted 40 years of my life.
    Last edited by padraig; 05-15-2019 at 02:03 AM.

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    I feel like I've wasted 40 years of my life.
    Yep, that's the general feeling here as well.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post

    His essay "On poetry in general", good Lord, it's one of the best pieces of writing I've ever come across. I'm astounded by it.
    meh. there are hundreds of amateur poets on reddit who wipe the floor with lamb.

  14. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    meh. there are hundreds of amateur poets on reddit who wipe the floor with lamb.
    And I have no doubt that's true!

    Lamb wasn't foremost a poet though, he was primarily an essayist who had an opinion on how to appreciate poetry.

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    I swear to God reading Charles Lamb for the first time I was blown away that somebody could put so much truth into such a simple sentence. I sat and read the same sentence over and over, each time thinking why on earth has it taken me 40 years to discover this?
    His essay "On poetry in general", good Lord, it's one of the best pieces of writing I've ever come across. I'm astounded by it.
    You have a very low bar for the label "pure genius"
    Charles Lamb? LOL

  16. #115

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    So it's a thing for people that like the color red to go to a forum dedicated to the color blue and proclaim that blue is not all it is cracked up to be?

  17. #116

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    I have shared the stage with many jazz guitar luminaries including Larry Coryell, Bruce Forman and Howard Alden. All were big fans of Joe Pass. I have never met a jazz guitarist whose playing I respected who disliked the playing of Joe Pass. Somehow, I doubt I ever will.

    We all have our subjective opinions, but objectively, Joe Pass is one of the giants of jazz guitar. IMO, Joe Pass WAS all that.
    _____________________________________________
    "When the chord changes, you should change" Joe Pass

  18. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger View Post
    I have shared the stage with many jazz guitar luminaries including Larry Coryell, Bruce Forman and Howard Alden. All were big fans of Joe Pass.
    Which luminaries on other instruments have you shared the stage with that were "big fans of Joe Pass"?

    List the luminary horn players or bass players or pianists that told you they were big fans of Joe Pass.

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    And I have no doubt that's true!

    Lamb wasn't foremost a poet though, he was primarily an essayist who had an opinion on how to appreciate poetry.
    Lol I've seen better essays on public restrooms walls than your Lamb.

  20. #119

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    Critique is fine, but it needs to be informed.

    I think that's why you're getting so much push back, padraig. Much of the stuff you stated as a criticism of Joe is simply untrue.

    If you said stuff along the lines of "His solo playing is sometimes too busy to my ears" or "in the 1980's he often recorded with a very dry, brittle tone and I much prefer the way he sounded on 'Joy Spring'" or "he smoked too many cigars" people would be like "yep."

    And I bet if you rounded up a bunch of horn players and pianists and asked them to name 5 jazz guitar players, Joe would be on almost every list (and some wouldn't be able to name 5)
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    I am no jazz musician, I've said as much in this thread and in others. But I have played violin all my life, and to a reasonable standard. I played classical guitar all the way through school but lost interest in my 20s. To say I have no idea of harmony or melodic concepts is just a cheap insult.

    Like many people with a background in classical music, I find jazz difficult. Incomprehensible at times. The matter isn't helped when it seems there's so much absolute twoddle written about it. Modes? I've never heard any classically trained musician talk about modes as anything other than an historical footnote. Yet jazz forums like this are full of it. I know a violinist who plays for a very well known symphony orchestra in the UK and I kid you not he says he doesn't even know the key signatures. He says he knew them once when he was a kid and had to pass theory exams but other than that, not a clue. He just plays the notes on the score. And I tell you what, it is astonishing to stand next to him, a foot away from the instrument and hear the quality of tone and the musicality he can get from even the most simple melody. Furthermore, I've never seen a piece of music that he's even had to stop to think about, just reads and plays like we read words on a page. Then I hear someone like Wes and yes I think, what's all the fuss about? Good at what he does maybe, good because he was an innovativor in his genre maybe, but not "great". Not "legendary" or "genius". These are not terms I would use.

    I dabble in playing jazz on the guitar and wish I was more competent. Likewise I'd love to be able to play jazz violin but I can do little more than play the heads of tunes and for improvising my approach is to embellish the melody whilst trying to keep it in time and with the right 'feel'.

    I know what sounds musical when I hear it though and that's enough to have an opinion in my book. Some of the solo work from Joe Pass does not sound musical to me. It sounds like somebody playing random notes with a very generous sense of rubato. If you like that then great, crack on.

    I'm willing to learn, I'm willing to accept my opinion is unpopular here. But I'm not willing to accept I'm a "troll" or that my opinion shouldn't count because I've not got a PhD in music theory.
    I tend to agree with a lot of what you say. I have never even pretended to be a jazz musician and, as much as I like SOME of Wes's (or Joe's or Johnny's or Herb's) stuff, I find it difficult to listen to a jazz album of anyone's all the way through - to me, it borders on boring. I know what they're doing and the point behind the improvisation but it all sounds pretty much the same to me. Once you get away from the melody, you start to lose me - sure, embellish it a little, but don't completely rewrite it and call it the same name. If you're so creative, write your own tune, give it a name and own it - that's what all the great songwriters have done. If I were a composer and wrote a beautiful piece of music, I would tend to refuse recording rights to anyone who didn't play it, more or less, as I wrote it. To me, the melody is the most important part of a tune. As an example, I have a book of hundreds of Irish and Scottish airs, jigs, hornpipes, etc. and there is not a single chord symbol in the entire book. If you're playing them on anything other than a wire strung Irish harp, you're free to add harmony as you will to flesh them out, but, the composer wrote a melody and that's all he felt was important to convey the emotion of the piece. Now, I know some will dismiss these as simple folk music but they're some of the most beautiful melodies ever written. There are lots of chord progressions out there - pick one (or devise your own) and make a nice melody that goes with it and you'll have a tune that folks will remember and whistle to themselves as they leave a venue. I don't see that happening with a 20 minute solo on ATTYR. I think that's why Wes's pop stuff was so popular - people could hear the song that he was playing. What's wrong with playing "California Dreaming" and "Winds of Barcelona" so they're recognizable?

  22. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    Lol I've seen better essays on public restrooms walls than your Lamb.
    Yes you may well have done. Everyone has to go for a piss sometime and it's not unreasonable to think that in the last 2 centuries since Charles Lamb, at least one person might have had a worthwhile thought whilst relieving themselves of vesicle discomfort.

  23. #122

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  24. #123

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    Hard to believe you're in your 40s, and I'm ashamed to say I just spent 5 minutes reading some of this thread.

  25. #124

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    I agree, Joe Pass was never my cup of tea. I never liked his tone, and I thought he was too "busy".

    Doesn't mean he's not a genius and one of the top guitarists, regardless of genre. Just not for me.

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnzo View Post
    I agree, Joe Pass was never my cup of tea. I never liked his tone, and I thought he was too "busy".

    Doesn't mean he's not a genius and one of the top guitarists, regardless of genre. Just not for me.
    I agree, although I'm a bigger Joe fan than you seem to be. I'd much rather listen to Johnny Smith and Herb Ellis and some of the pop Wes stuff. I think part of it is that their stuff is closer to attainable by someone of my skill level than what Joe played.

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Ellis View Post
    I agree, although I'm a bigger Joe fan than you seem to be. I'd much rather listen to Johnny Smith and Herb Ellis and some of the pop Wes stuff. I think part of it is that their stuff is closer to attainable by someone of my skill level than what Joe played.
    I very much agree. Ellis, Johnny, etc are much more in line with what I like. It has nothing to do with "can I play like him" tho.

  28. #127

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    My next door neighbor says pretty much the same thing as the OP. Her favorite musician is Cardi B.

    At some point the old adage comes to mind.

    People say they know what they like but they really like what they know
    If you don't recognize the genius here, the problem isn't joe pass. IT'S YOU!


  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    But his chord melody solo stuff, it just 'aint that musical is my unpopular opinion. Who listens to it apart from other guitarists? And do we actually listen to it for pleasure or just when we're trying to learn something?
    I try not to be negative on these forums, but you have no idea. You might want to try transcribing a couple of his solos and reassess.

  30. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    My next door neighbor says pretty much the same thing as the OP. Her favorite musician is Cardi B.
    Go ahead. Sneer away, look down your nose. Cardi B is currently selling more records than Joe Pass.

    Music is supposed to be entertainment. Jazz was entertainment in the 40s and 50s and 20s and 30s. But it's not now is it.

    Why not? Because nobody wants to listen to Joe Pass solo albums other than amateur guitarists, a very small niche audience. And that is why people are so butthurt in this thread, because the truth hurts. Niche artists like your Joe Pass simply ain't popular. It's crap.

    Does that mean jazz as an art form is dead? No, not at all. I was at the theatre last Friday, went to see a performance of The Great Gatsby and it was marvellous. 1920s tunes played by an orchestra and the audience absolutely loved it. It's not dead at all, good music is good music. What is dead is losers trying to learn forty year old Joe Pass solos in their living room and then crying like babies when somebody suggests nobody wants to listen to it.

  31. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    Go ahead. Sneer away, look down your nose. Cardi B is currently selling more records than Joe Pass.

    Music is supposed to be entertainment. Jazz was entertainment in the 40s and 50s and 20s and 30s. But it's not now is it.

    Why not? Because nobody wants to listen to Joe Pass solo albums other than amateur guitarists, a very small niche audience. And that is why people are so butthurt in this thread, because the truth hurts. Niche artists like your Joe Pass simply ain't popular. It's crap.

    Does that mean jazz as an art form is dead? No, not at all. I was at the theatre last Friday, went to see a performance of The Great Gatsby and it was marvellous. 1920s tunes played by an orchestra and the audience absolutely loved it. It's not dead at all, good music is good music. What is dead is losers trying to learn forty year old Joe Pass solos in their living room and then crying like babies when somebody suggests nobody wants to listen to it.
    You don’t play guitar. You don’t like Joe Pass. You don’t like Wes Montgomery. So what om earth are you doing here?

  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    Go ahead. Sneer away, look down your nose. Cardi B is currently selling more records than Joe Pass.

    Music is supposed to be entertainment. Jazz was entertainment in the 40s and 50s and 20s and 30s. But it's not now is it.

    Why not? Because nobody wants to listen to Joe Pass solo albums other than amateur guitarists, a very small niche audience. And that is why people are so butthurt in this thread, because the truth hurts. Niche artists like your Joe Pass simply ain't popular. It's crap.

    Does that mean jazz as an art form is dead? No, not at all. I was at the theatre last Friday, went to see a performance of The Great Gatsby and it was marvellous. 1920s tunes played by an orchestra and the audience absolutely loved it. It's not dead at all, good music is good music. What is dead is losers trying to learn forty year old Joe Pass solos in their living room and then crying like babies when somebody suggests nobody wants to listen to it.
    You don't play guitar. You don't like Joe Pass. You don't like Wes Montgomery. So why on earth are you here?

  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    Go ahead. Sneer away, look down your nose. Cardi B is currently selling more records than Joe Pass.

    Music is supposed to be entertainment. Jazz was entertainment in the 40s and 50s and 20s and 30s. But it's not now is it.

    Why not? Because nobody wants to listen to Joe Pass solo albums other than amateur guitarists, a very small niche audience. And that is why people are so butthurt in this thread, because the truth hurts. Niche artists like your Joe Pass simply ain't popular. It's crap.

    Does that mean jazz as an art form is dead? No, not at all. I was at the theatre last Friday, went to see a performance of The Great Gatsby and it was marvellous. 1920s tunes played by an orchestra and the audience absolutely loved it. It's not dead at all, good music is good music. What is dead is losers trying to learn forty year old Joe Pass solos in their living room and then crying like babies when somebody suggests nobody wants to listen to it.
    Unpopular opinion Sunday - Joe Pass wasn't all that.-a3f-gif

  34. #133
    Shall we just consider this thread closed, call it a day and agree to disagree?

    I thank all the people that have opened my eyes to some great musicianship by Joe Pass. I'm more informed than I was before and I appreciate it.
    Last edited by padraig; 05-15-2019 at 01:58 AM.

  35. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    Yes you may well have done. Everyone has to go for a piss sometime and it's not unreasonable to think that in the last 2 centuries since Charles Lamb, at least one person might have had a worthwhile thought whilst relieving themselves of vesicle discomfort.
    I've never read Charles Lamb but that was hilarious.

    And yes, perhaps it is time to let this thread die.

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Ellis View Post
    So, what you're saying is: one is not qualified to express an opinion on his/hers dislikes in music without being a better player or more musically educated than the player? A masters degree can only be critiqued by a PhD? A BS can only be judged by a Masters? In 'academia', maybe, but in the real world, that's absolute rubbish. Remember the old saying, " those who can't, teach". That's just pure arrogance IMHO.

    ...
    No that is not what he's saying. He did not say "qualified to express an opinion" but was talking about properly assessing someone technically. I agree with him on that. You cannot properly assess, evaluate in detail, expose the strengths and weaknesses, of any practice that you are not intimately familiar with on a much broader scale than the specific example you're assessing.

    As for just having an opinion, anybody can have an opinion. But nobody has the right to have their opinions respected by others unless they can support their claims. These "mere opinion" statements often still smuggle in a lot of claims that are not matters of opinion but of fact, many wrong, or of judgment, which requires discernment, wisdom, taste, and experience.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    Shall we just consider this thread closed, call it a day and agree to disagree?

    I thank all the people that have opened my eyes to some great musicianship by Joe Pass. I'm more informed than I was before and I appreciate it.

    Thank you.
    Class dismissed?

  38. #137

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    I dunno, I thought there was a lot of potential for open discussion in this thread.

    There were a few good points on either side of the coin, now that I've reread it all.

    Let's leave it at this: I love listening to jazz, but sometimes I find the jazz community a little... I dunno... repulsive.

    That goes for what was said here (on either side) and what is often shared by the "elder statesmen" of the craft.

    I'm kind of ashamed that I took part in the volley.

  39. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    I hear you getting very uppity because somebody dared criticise one of your heroes.

    What have you added to the conversation other than trying to discredit my opinion?

    And you have a very low bar for the label "pure genius". Get tickets for your local concert hall next time a symphony orchestra is playing. Every single musician in that orchestra will be more expressive and more skilled on their instrument than the likes of your Wes Montgomery. And they're only run of the mill, scratching a living nobodies. Soloists like Heifetz or Nathan Milstein or Joshua Bell or Hilary Hahn are what you could call "great". Somebody like Wynton Marsalis can cross genres and also be considered "great".
    Bach was a "genius".

    Wes Montgomery? Lol.
    Hero? Not so, but ANY musician could learn something from JP.

    As a wise man once said, welcome to my ignore list.
    Check out my tracks at www.soundcloud.com/billmcmannis

  40. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkwaters View Post
    I know where you're coming from. Sometimes Joe seems so busy cramming as many notes in as possible that it can be exhausting, however...……. I love his Unforgettable album. So tasteful and elegant and a beautiful tone. Ms. darkwaters is a big fan of this album and always remarks on it when it's on the stereo.
    Just a note. The reason "Songs for Ellen" and "Unforgettable" are so different from Joe Pass' other work is that... he was far gone with cancer and dying Those sessions were in 1992. He was gone in 1994. I was regularly corresponding with him during those years, spoke with him on the phone about a week before he passed. I have the video of the last note he played on guitar. He stops and says "I can't do this anymore." It makes you weep.

    Those tracks were all he could manage to play physically. He no longer had the strength to play the steel strings and get the attack he was known for. He had to go low-tension nylon.

    So I don't like to compare those albums with his others, because it feels like saying "I liked Joe Pass while he was dying better than when he was full of life."

    I will always remember his humanity, his humor, his generosity toward me as a genuinely mediocre player, the wisdom and advice he gave. I will never forget the electric shock that ran down my spine the first time I heard him play "Stompin' at Savoy" on the Virtuoso Live album and couldn't believe someone could play like that.

    When I hear Songs for Ellen and Unforgettable, all I can feel is sadness and loss. It's also true that Joe Pass, nearly dead, on an acoustic nylon-string guitar, could outplay most players at the top of their game with their best gear.

    It's easy to pluck the lion's whiskers and say "he ain't so tough" when he's gone.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  41. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Just a note. The reason "Songs for Ellen" and "Unforgettable" are so different from Joe Pass' other work is that... he was far gone with cancer and dying Those sessions were in 1992. He was gone in 1994. I was regularly corresponding with him during those years, spoke with him on the phone about a week before he passed. I have the video of the last note he played on guitar. He stops and says "I can't do this anymore." It makes you weep.

    Those tracks were all he could manage to play physically. He no longer had the strength to play the steel strings and get the attack he was known for. He had to go low-tension nylon.

    So I don't like to compare those albums with his others, because it feels like saying "I liked Joe Pass while he was dying better than when he was full of life."

    I will always remember his humanity, his humor, his generosity toward me as a genuinely mediocre player, the wisdom and advice he gave. I will never forget the electric shock that ran down my spine the first time I heard him play "Stompin' at Savoy" on the Virtuoso Live album and couldn't believe someone could play like that.

    When I hear Songs for Ellen and Unforgettable, all I can feel is sadness and loss. It's also true that Joe Pass, nearly dead, on an acoustic nylon-string guitar, could outplay most players at the top of their game with their best gear.

    It's easy to pluck the lion's whiskers and say "he ain't so tough" when he's gone.
    And that's some of my favorite JP stuff!

  42. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Just a note. The reason "Songs for Ellen" and "Unforgettable" are so different from Joe Pass' other work is that... he was far gone with cancer and dying Those sessions were in 1992. He was gone in 1994. I was regularly corresponding with him during those years, spoke with him on the phone about a week before he passed. I have the video of the last note he played on guitar. He stops and says "I can't do this anymore." It makes you weep.

    Those tracks were all he could manage to play physically. He no longer had the strength to play the steel strings and get the attack he was known for. He had to go low-tension nylon.

    So I don't like to compare those albums with his others, because it feels like saying "I liked Joe Pass while he was dying better than when he was full of life."

    I will always remember his humanity, his humor, his generosity toward me as a genuinely mediocre player, the wisdom and advice he gave. I will never forget the electric shock that ran down my spine the first time I heard him play "Stompin' at Savoy" on the Virtuoso Live album and couldn't believe someone could play like that.

    When I hear Songs for Ellen and Unforgettable, all I can feel is sadness and loss. It's also true that Joe Pass, nearly dead, on an acoustic nylon-string guitar, could outplay most players at the top of their game with their best gear.

    It's easy to pluck the lion's whiskers and say "he ain't so tough" when he's gone.
    Fantastic post Lawson.

    Joe was a true giant in the history of the guitar.

    I saw him perform many times. My life is the better for it.
    _____________________________________________
    "When the chord changes, you should change" Joe Pass

  43. #142

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    I need to say that Joe and Wes were such giants because they were just a few of the guitarists enjoyed and respected as masters outside of the guitar brotherhood. They were so well known because their superb musicality and virtuosity was enjoyed and respected by so many. Not just by a bunch of guitar nerds.

  44. #143

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    No-one has posted ‘Django’ yet - this is one of my favourite tracks by Joe:


  45. #144

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    I must post one thing by Wes Montgomery. This is so soulful and atmospheric. It’s not about playing a million notes. I’d have thought if you like Grant Green, you can appreciate this.


  46. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    I am no jazz musician, I've said as much in this thread and in others. But I have played violin all my life, and to a reasonable standard. I played classical guitar all the way through school but lost interest in my 20s.
    Quote Originally Posted by padraig View Post
    Like many people with a background in classical music, I find jazz difficult. Incomprehensible at times.
    Classical and Jazz are similar to French and German. Just because you've learned, understand French does not mean you understand German even you have great sense of language. The same is true about literacy. Just because you have great literacy of French culture that does not mean you also have German literacy. Recognizing this can save one to make extraordinary statements about a territory what may not fully known.

    ***

    It comes with time, and repeated listening. If you are open, and you can find minimal enjoyment of listening jazz, gradually, but surely after 1000s hours you will have the same regarding jazz, what you have now in classical music. You can pick your heroes, not necessary Joe Pass of course.

  47. #146

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    I once was in a masterclass of a very good player (quite well-known but it does not really matter)... and there was some part of discussion about players and some of the students talked first about Benson that he is good bit all that pop-stuff etc. and about Joe approximately something like the OP here...

    and this player answered: wel.. yes... you know... maybe ... hm (he kept silence for a minute)... you know..
    maybe you are right..
    maybe I somehow even agree with you... . but...
    let us just not touch George and Joe...

    If I think backwards they gave me at least a few of the happiest moments in my musical experience...
    so I just do not want to say anything about what you are talking about ... let's just put it aside and that's it

  48. #147

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    "YouTube is full of amateur bedroom players knocking out tastier licks than Wes."

    A tribute to all of those amateur bedroom players, wherever they may be. Good luck to you!


  49. #148

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    Examples of non-guitar players who like Joe Pass: Oscar Peterson and Ella Fitzgerald. But since Cardi B outsells both of them, their opinions aren't worth much.

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by djelley View Post
    Examples of non-guitar players who like Joe Pass: Oscar Peterson and Ella Fitzgerald. But since Cardi B outsells both of them, their opinions aren't worth much.
    This is a good one :-). Actually (based on what my Spotify say) Cardi B or more:

    Billie Eilish outsells

    Joe Pass: 196x
    Oscar Peterson: 40x
    Ella Fitzgerald: 17 times (this is not so bad)

    I do not want hijack this thread but what is really sad:

    Jesse van Ruller: 22500x :-(
    Jonathan Kreisberg: 4500x
    Peter Bernstein: 3200x

    Regarding JVR, Kreisberg and Bernstein maybe the results are a bit better in reality if we add their recording under other leaders, which Spotify does not credit under their names.

  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    No-one has posted ‘Django’ yet - this is one of my favourite tracks by Joe:

    Oh yea, thats a great track, i was listening to excessively in my college days, even had a transcription by a fellow student.