Solo Guitar Tune #9 -In the Wee Small Hours of the Morning

[joe2758]

sounds really great, matt.

[John A.]

Okay here's one from me . I have kind of a love/hate relationship with this tune. It really is a beautiful tune, but I can't get out of my head the version from some "wife movie" of mine. Must be You've Got Mail or something. Anyway, I just can't seem to make myself practice this for more than a few minutes at a time.

I do apologize for the sound quality on this. I just had the phone sitting in a bad place I guess.

Anyway, to what Lawson was saying above, my frustration with these threads is that we're going to talk process more . That's what I was kind of more interested in, And it's what we could have originally laid out. I think a couple of us did that on the first one , and then it just kind of became poster version etc. And some really intimidatingly good versions maybe too. :-)

So, in the interest of original premise, I'll just throw in some thoughts about my personal process with this meager run-through. (Again, I'm not a jazz player. I really came to the forum is kind of a interested in chord melody fingerstyle list , and then actually started getting interested in things like improv. Kind of got sucked in.)
I'll do a quick "process" video, and paste it in the same post. Please feel free to ignore or whatever. It's pretty basic stuff to many here I'm sure.

Please feel free to rip apart, critique or ask any question about why I'm doing something I'm doing or whatever. This is the kind of conversation I'm most interested in anyway. I always appreciate positive comments and all, but there's other stuff as well.

That was a very cool take, Matt. Felt like a real performance.

As far as talking about process goes, I did that on one of the early ones. I'm not really clear on what people want to hear in term of analysis and description. I talked about generally what I'm trying to do aesthetically.

Basically, I think in terms of keeping flow going, having a way back to the head, and incorporating devices like walking bass lines, contrary motion, and mixing up open vs close voicings, harmony in fourth vs thirds dissonance and resolution, and leaving myself open to whatever voicing sounds OK and in reach.

The actual harmonic analysis of what any of us is doing kind speaks for itself, so I didn't talk about that. TL;DR: I have a fairly limited palette of things I can actually execute, so I focus on getting the most out of it. I don't know if anyone finds this kind description interesting or helpful (and there wasn't much response to it), so I figured that was that.

John

[joe2758]

cool breakdown.

To me, this forum can be an uncomfortable place to post instructional stuff because of weird dynamic. when i used to teach privately it’s like “i’m the teacher, you’re the student.” Here, there’s tons of players my level or better. So it’s like who am i even talking to? I know there are lurkers who read and appreciate the stuff, but they generally don’t engage.

I like sharing when someone asks a question because it means they liked my playing, but also that i am talking to a person and not just putting it out there in case someone finds it useful.

I also feel vulnerable to embarrassment, so the benefit (maybe someone somewhere will find it useful) vs. risk (someone is going to embarrass me or engage in a debate which we all know is just chest beating) usually doesn’t lead to me posting un-asked for vids (anymore).

In fact i had hours worth of edu material for beginners that i went back and made private over time

[lawson-stone]

cool breakdown.

To me, this forum can be an uncomfortable place to post instructional stuff because of weird dynamic. when i used to teach privately it’s like “i’m the teacher, you’re the student.” Here, there’s tons of players my level or better. So it’s like who am i even talking to? I know there are lurkers who read and appreciate the stuff, but they generally don’t engage.

I like sharing when someone asks a question because it means they liked my playing, but also that i am talking to a person and not just putting it out there in case someone finds it useful.

I also feel vulnerable to embarrassment, so the benefit (maybe someone somewhere will find it useful) vs. risk (someone is going to embarrass me or engage in a debate which we all know is just chest beating) usually doesn’t lead to me posting un-asked for vids (anymore).

In fact i had hours worth of edu material for beginners that i went back and made private over time

I always just envisioned here that we'd just tell a bit of what we were thinking, how we decided on the approach we did. I don't even consider that instructional material, just conversation.

[joe2758]

yeah it’s probably just my own issue carry on

[matt.guitarteacher]

I always just envisioned here that we'd just tell a bit of what we were thinking, how we decided on the approach we did. I don't even consider that instructional material, just conversation.

I think that was the premise in the original.

yeah it’s probably just my own issue carry on

Definitely not. I always feel the same way. But that's what I liked about the idea of this originally: that you're just sharing your own approach, without any baggage that you're trying to be "teacher" or whatever. I like the idea that it's for "whomever". If the approach part isn't "for you", that's fine.

Of course, by "you", I mean "one", not Joe.

Anyway, I also fully understand that for a great many people music isn't something which is easily quantifiable or described. I think that's for the particular nerd-type of which I am victim personally. I just think that if I can save any time for the Matt- of- six- years ago who may be reading, it might be worth sharing.

Chord melody really IS pretty unique in one sense: from what I gather, everyone's approach is pretty unique. I'm curious about any insights into other's, even IF it's not something I'm going to be able to personally use immediately.

[joe2758]

I see what you mean. I do like talking about the stuff, i’m just self conscious. I’ll do one next time since I know at least you guys here will watch and respect even if i’m wrong haha.

Incidently, Matt, counterpoint is essentially my end goal (pretty why mine are 100% arranged), and my approach is entirely based on block chords and scales. The block chords are places to land and places that feel solid along the way, if that makes sense

[joe2758]

what i mean is i could never just write 4 voice counterpoint, its just various voices moving between block chords

[matt.guitarteacher]

I see what you mean. I do like talking about the stuff, i’m just self conscious. I’ll do one next time since I know at least you guys here will watch and respect even if i’m wrong haha.

Incidently, Matt, counterpoint is essentially my end goal (pretty why mine are 100% arranged), and my approach is entirely based on block chords and scales. The block chords are places to land and places that feel solid along the way, if that makes sense

Yeah. To be clear, I'm certainly not saying that I think anyone should feel obligated . More like you should feel free to share without having to justify being able to be a "teacher" to everyone or something.

Personally, I find it intimidating enough just to post something. I don't know if there is even anyone who might learn something from what I might say, but I guess I can just put it out there and let it be its own thing.

[joe2758]

what’s the next tune? anyone want to do darn that dream ir east of the sun? maybe polka dots? nothing too exciting but theyve been on my list for a while

[John A.]

what’s the next tune? anyone want to do darn that dream ir east of the sun? maybe polka dots? nothing too exciting but theyve been on my list for a while

The next one on the poll list was Nearness of You, but I'm good with those.

John

[joe2758]

I would do nearness of you also. We could just stick to the poll and do that. Is there one after that?

[John A.]

I would do nearness of you also. We could just stick to the poll and do that. Is there one after that?

I think that was the last one.

John

[PaulW10]

I think that was the last one.

John

Like wow! I've been away a lot and haven't even posted my own contribution here yet. I also haven't watched the latest contributions yet I'm sorry to say. The last time I checked these threads seemed to be fizzling out. However I am more than happy to keep them going. There have been a lot of "regulars" who seemed to fall away, but again, it could just be the time of year.

As far as sharing here, I figured it would grow into whatever the group wanted it to be. I also figured people would share in whatever ways they wanted.

Personally I was hoping people would sometimes describe their thinking in selecting certain voicings, tempo, etc. To a large extent I think that has actually happened.

Anyway, I'm glad there are people wanting to keep this alive! The Nearness of You was the last song of the poll, so if we go past that one, we'll need a new poll I suppose. Any suggestions?

[joe2758]

just the few i mentioned above, i'd also add round midnight

[John A.]

just the few i mentioned above, i'd also add round midnight

I'd like to do some more up tempo stuff. Perhaps:
A Foggy Day
Almost Like Being in Love
My Romance

[joe2758]

i'd be into cherokee for up tempo

[mr. beaumont]

Cherokee''s a good one for uptempo solo guitar, because the melodic rhythm is slow.

But I'll surely get back in this month, Nearness is one of my absolute favorite tunes..

I still need to go back and do Emily...just got busy dadding this summer.

[PaulW10]

Okay here's one from me . I have kind of a love/hate relationship with this tune. It really is a beautiful tune, but I can't get out of my head the version from some "wife movie" of mine. Must be You've Got Mail or something. Anyway, I just can't seem to make myself practice this for more than a few minutes at a time.

I do apologize for the sound quality on this. I just had the phone sitting in a bad place I guess.

Anyway, to what Lawson was saying above, my frustration with these threads is that we're going to talk process more . That's what I was kind of more interested in, And it's what we could have originally laid out. I think a couple of us did that on the first one , and then it just kind of became poster version etc. And some really intimidatingly good versions maybe too. :-)

So, in the interest of original premise, I'll just throw in some thoughts about my personal process with this meager run-through. (Again, I'm not a jazz player. I really came to the forum is kind of a interested in chord melody fingerstyle list , and then actually started getting interested in things like improv. Kind of got sucked in.)
I'll do a quick "process" video, and paste it in the same post. Please feel free to ignore or whatever. It's pretty basic stuff to many here I'm sure.

Please feel free to rip apart, critique or ask any question about why I'm doing something I'm doing or whatever. This is the kind of conversation I'm most interested in anyway. I always appreciate positive comments and all, but there's other stuff as well.

Matt it was very enjoyable to hear both your arrangement and your discussion. Thanks for taking the time to do both of them.

I've been sort of overwhelmed at work and have not been able to concentrate on these threads like I'd really like to be doing. I would say your discussion though is right on the money of expressing how you go about it. As was said, everyone has a different approach.

I think I use a lot of the same ideas as you. You're are able to express them much better in a technical sense. Your discussion early on about block chords is right on. One thing I think to do is to act like I'm accompanying a singer by trying to play something underneath the melody, but then visualizing what I would do in between the melody lines. There's a lot of space in a melody to add custom touches that make an arrangement unique to each player. I believe you do a really good job in that area.

Paul

[matt.guitarteacher]

Paul. Thanks for the comments and kind words. Glad to hear there's someone else who thinks somewhat similarly. I just never hear anyone talk about it that way. The end result for me is so un-block-chord style to my ears, that I'm always kind of in awe of the illusion of independence that it creates. Of course so many people talk aboutactually thinking about it THAT way , that I thought it was worth mentioning as a different viewpoint.

Anyway, I honestly can hear that common rhythmic focus in your style as well. I'm prejudiced for obvious reasons, but it's still worth saying: I really like it. :-)

Thanks again.

Matt it was very enjoyable to hear both your arrangement and your discussion. Thanks for taking the time to do both of them.

I've been sort of overwhelmed at work and have not been able to concentrate on these threads like I'd really like to be doing. I would say your discussion though is right on the money of expressing how you go about it. As was said, everyone has a different approach.

I think I use a lot of the same ideas as you. You're are able to express them much better in a technical sense. Your discussion early on about block chords is right on. One thing I think to do is to act like I'm accompanying a singer by trying to play something underneath the melody, but then visualizing what I would do in between the melody lines. There's a lot of space in a melody to add custom touches that make an arrangement unique to each player. I believe you do a really good job in that area.

Paul

[PaulW10]

Paul. Thanks for the comments and kind words. Glad to hear there's someone else who thinks somewhat similarly. I just never hear anyone talk about it that way. The end result for me is so un-block-chord style to my ears, that I'm always kind of in awe of the illusion of independence that it creates. Of course so many people talk aboutactually thinking about it THAT way , that I thought it was worth mentioning as a different viewpoint.

Anyway, I honestly can hear that common rhythmic focus in your style as well. I'm prejudiced for obvious reasons, but it's still worth saying: I really like it. :-)

Thanks again.

Coming out of the block chord foundation, one thing I probably do is grab full chords when I don't need to and actually have no intention of playing the entire chord. It's a crutch I do to make sure i have some kind of filler notes under my fingers to lay under the melody. I remember Jeff Matz in one of the early threads talking about leaving the roots out and I've tried to keep that in mind, but old habits are hard to break.

You're able to flow from chord to chord smoothly and don't seem to fall into that, Matt. That's especially evident in your uptempo version here.

[John A.]

Coming out of the block chord foundation, one thing I probably do is grab full chords when I don't need to and actually have no intention of playing the entire chord. It's a crutch I do to make sure i have some kind of filler notes under my fingers to lay under the melody. I remember Jeff Matz in one of the early threads talking about leaving the roots out and I've tried to keep that in mind, but old habits are hard to break.

You're able to flow from chord to chord smoothly and don't seem to fall into that, Matt. That's especially evident in your uptempo version here.

Yeah, leave out roots. Thirds, fifths, sevenths, ninth, elevenths and thirteenths, too ...

... only half joking. A good percent of the time, my voicing choices are based on what chords I can actually move in and out of while keeping up with the melody, and sometimes the best I can do is single line, or an interval. Necessity is the mother of reharmonization.

John

[matt.guitarteacher]

Coming out of the block chord foundation, one thing I probably do is grab full chords when I don't need to and actually have no intention of playing the entire chord. It's a crutch I do to make sure i have some kind of filler notes under my fingers to lay under the melody. I remember Jeff Matz in one of the early threads talking about leaving the roots out and I've tried to keep that in mind, but old habits are hard to break.

You're able to flow from chord to chord smoothly and don't seem to fall into that, Matt. That's especially evident in your uptempo version here.

Yeah. That's what I think is interesting though. This is kind of the chicken/egg thing. My beginning context was always the block chords. Then you arpeggiate them. Then your ears kind of teach your fingers to actually play what they are "hearing", (when you're only playing pieces of fully fingered chords), and you start to play smaller and hear things more separate as well.

Beyond that, the harmonic rhythm itself is great for manipulating the space in between things, giving you more room to fill in, more space think. So, the doubletime at the end accomplishes two things at once: it gives a rhythmic context which sounds slightly more complex, while at the same time giving a lot more real estate and "room to work". Paradoxically, it sounds more complex while actually being easier to play in a lot of ways. 8 eighth notes per measure versus 12 eighths note triplets per measure, vs 16 double time eighth notes poorer measure etc etc. More subdivisions = more space. basically, I just don't have enough mental space to work if I'm not coming from ax subdivision standpoint of at least a kind of 12/8 feel, with eight note triplets. I'm just not good enough to fill in smaller spaces otherwise. Still learning.

The other thing is the space kind of demands being filled in a way that really sparks creativity with other harmonies etc. The other thing is that they are never one-to- one anyway. When you subdivide smaller, you don't spread everything out evenly to suit. Usually you're pushing things to one side or another, creating even bigger spaces. Anyway, sorry. Doesn't make sense in text form like that probably.

[PaulW10]

Yeah. That's what I think is interesting though. This is kind of the chicken/egg thing. My beginning context was always the block chords. Then you arpeggiate them. Then your ears kind of teach your fingers to actually play what they are "hearing", (when you're only playing pieces of fully fingered chords), and you start to play smaller and hear things more separate as well.

Beyond that, the harmonic rhythm itself is great for manipulating the space in between things, giving you more room to fill in, more space think. So, the doubletime at the end accomplishes two things at once: it gives a rhythmic context which sounds slightly more complex, while at the same time giving a lot more real estate and "room to work". Paradoxically, it sounds more complex while actually being easier to play in a lot of ways. 8 eighth notes per measure versus 12 eighths note triplets per measure, vs 16 double time eighth notes poorer measure etc etc. More subdivisions = more space. basically, I just don't have enough mental space to work if I'm not coming from ax subdivision standpoint of at least a kind of 12/8 feel, with eight note triplets. I'm just not good enough to fill in smaller spaces otherwise. Still learning.

The other thing is the space kind of demands being filled in a way that really sparks creativity with other harmonies etc. The other thing is that they are never one-to- one anyway. When you subdivide smaller, you don't spread everything out evenly to suit. Usually you're pushing things to one side or another, creating even bigger spaces. Anyway, sorry. Doesn't make sense in text form like that probably.

One trouble spot I've always had reading sheet music was playing notes in the proper time as written. It's never come naturally, so thinking in terms of triplets, etc. does not come naturally to me. However, if I know the song, I am able to hear in my head how a vocalist might phrase it and that helps me a lot I think with the harmonic rhythm.

I've been working to try and leave the entire block chord "at home" and be economical with my fingerings. In fact, I very recently added a nylon string guitar to the arsenal (which I'm loving by the way - a 2017 Taylor 812ce-n. Maybe I'll start a separate thread for that). Hearing your nylon string here Matt as well as others prompted me to search a nylon guitar out. Anyway that guitar sometimes screams to just play a single note line as the melody with no accompaniment, particularly in the upper registers. It's sort of liberating and can relax me some while little playing solo. Big block chords just don't fall under the fingers as easily on that guitar as they do on my archtop, so sometimes that's all I can pull off!

[matt.guitarteacher]

One trouble spot I've always had reading sheet music was playing notes in the proper time as written. It's never come naturally, so thinking in terms of triplets, etc. does not come naturally to me. However, if I know the song, I am able to hear in my head how a vocalist might phrase it and that helps me a lot I think with the harmonic rhythm.

I've been working to try and leave the entire block chord "at home" and be economical with my fingerings. In fact, I very recently added a nylon string guitar to the arsenal (which I'm loving by the way - a 2017 Taylor 812ce-n. Maybe I'll start a separate thread for that). Hearing your nylon string here Matt as well as others prompted me to search a nylon guitar out. Anyway that guitar sometimes screams to just play a single note line as the melody with no accompaniment, particularly in the upper registers. It's sort of liberating and can relax me some while little playing solo. Big block chords just don't fall under the fingers as easily on that guitar as they do on my archtop, so sometimes that's all I can pull off!

Yeah. The nylon string teaches you to fill up the spaces for sure, as the sustain just isn't the same. Interesting how each instrument has different lessons to teach.

Rarely play it these days. I do these things in phases in spurts.