Solo Guitar Tune #3 - Tenderly

**grahambop** · 03-23-2018, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Absolutely. As I said, useful occasionally although I'm not a great fan of 'new theories'. I mean, I knew about the relationship between 7b9's and diminished chords, which is fairly obvious. Whether all related dominants can be substituted for each other is another matter.

Can I go on a bit? Say you have the usual 2-5-1 in C. The G7 be seen as a G7b9 and substituted with any diminished chord in the family D,F,B and Ab. They're just inversions so that's simple.

But apparently those notes can be treated as dominants D7, F7, B7 or Ab7 and substituted for the G7. Is that right?

I may have this wrong, of course, so open to correction.

I think you're on the right lines, you just got those dominants off by one semitone. The 4 related dominants for G7 are actually G7, Bb7, Db7, E7. (because Ab diminished = G7b9 = G7). They all work over G7 with various tensions.

It's not really a new theory, Barry just codified it for jazz purposes. He says you can find it in Bach, Chopin, etc.

**ragman1** · 03-23-2018, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

I think you're on the right lines, you just got those dominants off by one semitone. The 4 related dominants for G7 are actually G7, Bb7, Db7, E7. (because Ab diminished = G7b9 = G7). They all work over G7 with various tensions.

Ah! That makes sense. I already knew those subs, of course, just to show off. I understood why Joe played a root F dominant, just not the diminished stuff.

It's not really a new theory

They never are :-)

**joe2758** · 03-23-2018, 09:15 AM

yeah the act of lowering a note of the diminished chord is what makes those all regular dominants. as you know playing the diminished as is gives you a b9 sub. mine was a b9 chord because I had a diminished chord and ADDED the root/bass note, rather than lowering the diminished note that would become the root

**jazzdan** · 03-23-2018, 10:47 AM

Thanks Paul. I thought it came out pretty good but I've been told that I have to work on my timing which I know I need work on. When I'm playing I try to feel the song rather than counting it. Or maybe I can start a new musical trend, going back and forth between 4/4 and 3/4 in the same song.

**ragman1** · 03-23-2018, 10:58 AM

Joe -

video

Sure, why not?

I get most theory, it's not difficult, but this diminished stuff makes my head go round.

I can change a G7 into a G7b9 and make Abo. But the dominant subs aren't the notes of Abo, they come from the diminished chord below it, Go.

I find it all counter-intuitive. In fact, I'm not sure it actually makes sense. Worse than maths at school!

The way I remember the subs is Bb7 (m3 up), Db7 (tritone) and E7 (V chord of Am, relative minor of C, so the two V's can be substituted).

**kris** · 03-23-2018, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Joe -

Sure, why not?

I get most theory, it's not difficult, but this diminished stuff makes my head go round.

I can change a G7 into a G7b9 and make Abo. But the dominant subs aren't the notes of Abo, they come from the diminished chord below it, Go.

I find it all counter-intuitive. In fact, I'm not sure it actually makes sense. Worse than maths at school!

The way I remember the subs is Bb7 (m3 up), Db7 (tritone) and E7 (V chord of Am, relative minor of C, so the two V's can be substituted).

why you do not realise your theory in practical way... ?
I am looking for it in your playing staff...

**PaulW10** · 03-23-2018, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Gramps

PaulD always plays stuff I like but I was referring to PaulW10 in this case.

Looks like I almost blew up your thread. Click tracks indeed! Some peoples kids. lol

Had I known peoples feelings about it I wouldn't have started the thread with that track or mentioned that I didn't see what difference it makes. Since someone said that if the track wasn't an issue more people might get involved I thought....sure more people is nice. Good intentions, bad decision.

Anyway, you sounded great. Looking forward to hearing more.

What an incredibly nice compliment Gramps. To be mentioned along with Tim in the same sentence is truly an honor. Thanks for that. It really makes my day

I sincerely appreciate you starting the thread Gramps. And I don't think it was a bad decision at all to start the thread with a backing track interpretation. It sounded great and, heck if you hadn't done that we probably wouldn't have gotten going on Tenderly at all.

One of the really cool things about this forum and these threads is hearing everyone's different take on a basic song and melody. Thank God we all walk to the beat of our own drummer and do our own thing. Life would sure get boring if we didn't (or at least music would!)

**PaulW10** · 03-23-2018, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

I find the Barry Harris framework very useful for solo guitar (although I haven't yet got into the 'families of dominants' thing as much as Joe has). All my solo things these days contain some elements of it. Very useful when harmonizing a melody or creating additional movement to fill out the structure.

The discussions going on here between you, Joe and Ragman (and others) about theory are very interesting. I've always liked theory but am only somewhat dangerous with it. I certainly like the sounds I'm hearing from you Grahambop and others using the Barry Harris framework. I think I want to look into that. I haven't done any serious study for a while and it may be time to try and shake things up for myself.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-23-2018, 12:03 PM

Everything is theoretical until you play it. If you're not playing it or don't know the sounds or have it in your fingers, of course it's theoretical. But the assumption that something which is theoretical for you must therefore be theoretical for EVERYONE ELSE on the planet has an obvious flaw.

There are non-jazz forums where individuals cry "Theory" when someone mentions Roman numerals like a 251. For most of us here, I would think that's a SOUND as much as a concept, but for others, It may be legitimately theoretical.

Anyway, I would think the main thing on this thread is playing your solo version of the tune. That should at least be the context for beginning the conversation. The initial threadin the series was enjoyably complaint/ debate free.

**PaulW10** · 03-23-2018, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by jazzdan

Thanks Paul. I thought it came out pretty good but I've been told that I have to work on my timing which I know I need work on. When I'm playing I try to feel the song rather than counting it. Or maybe I can start a new musical trend, going back and forth between 4/4 and 3/4 in the same song.

I think my own personal best is when I'm not thinking about it too much and let it all go. It's hard to get to that point with a camera rolling. I have a 10 second countdown before the camera stars recording starts which gets me all wound up.

I find I do my best playing early in the morning when I'm fresh. There are some days, although not everyday, when after warming up and playing for a while, I find myself lost in the music and don't even realize I'm physically playing or even touching the strings. It's a wonderful musical experience and striving for that feeling is the main reason I play. Does anyone else experience that? At that point the music is being driven by your inner self and timing is taken over by something else.

**jazzdan** · 03-23-2018, 12:20 PM

Sometimes the lady I dance with a lot on Saturday night tells me she hears me counting quick quick slow slow while we are doing the Texas Two Step. Maybe if we do a two step song here I might get the timing right

**wizard3739** · 03-23-2018, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by TLerch

Hey guys,
I haven't spent much time with this tune but have really enjoyed exploring it. Here is my rendition. It was very late last night so it has a kind of quiet vibe so as not to wake the sleepers. enjoy

all the best
Tim

Well played Tim. Your version reminds me of Ted Greene and was very enjoyable for me.

wiz (Howie)

**PaulW10** · 03-23-2018, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

This frigging tune... Beastly in spots. Hope to actually learn it eventually. One of my favorites. Here's a first offering.

[I'm embarrassed to think about the number of times I've played it the last couple of weeks... Oh nevermind... I'll just lie instead]:

"Never seen/heard it before. Just reading through..." :-)

The head is rough and I didn't quite land the ending, but I liked some of the improv ideas better on this take. Anyway, not a finished work, but comments/critiques appreciated.

Hey Matt,

I just went back and watched this video a second time when I was eating lunch and really think it's cool. You've got the ability to really get a natural groove going and sounding like more than one guitar. In fact, I had to listen closely because often I thought you did have a second guitar comping in a track underneath you. The tempo you use here and the improv seem just right for this song to me. And I really like a flatpick on nylon like that. Very nice.

**grahambop** · 03-23-2018, 04:30 PM

joe2758 - I really like that contrary motion stuff you’re doing, it reminds me of some of the things Pasquale Grasso does, I reckon you’re onto something very cool there!

**lawson-stone** · 03-23-2018, 04:45 PM

That was just wonderful! I enjoyed your working those bass strings and 2-note intervals, just lovely.

**joe2758** · 03-23-2018, 04:58 PM

thanks guys. Pasquale Grasso might be my favorite guitar player of all time, so that is quite the compliment

edit: btw, Grant, you might recognize that last contrary motion bit toward the end as the infamous "major to minor to minor with a 6th in the bass" bass movement

**lawson-stone** · 03-23-2018, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by jazzdan

Nicely done Dan! If you'd keep the tempo at 4/4 you would have some "fill space" but what impresses me most is how much your arrangements have been growing in sophistication. You use a lot of voicings and intervals here that I just didn't hear coming from you back when you and I first started having these conversations. I also wish you'd get out of the first position ;-) but the fact is, by accepting that as as a limit, you have become very resourceful in exploiting all the possibilities of working in the 1st position, ideas that would not have come had you been up the neck in Eb.

Have you used this on a gig yet? Of all us on this thread, you probably are among those who play for audiences live the most.

**lawson-stone** · 03-23-2018, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

This frigging tune... Beastly in spots. Hope to actually learn it eventually. One of my favorites. Here's a first offering.

[I'm embarrassed to think about the number of times I've played it the last couple of weeks... Oh nevermind... I'll just lie instead]:

"Never seen/heard it before. Just reading through..." :-)

The head is rough and I didn't quite land the ending, but I liked some of the improv ideas better on this take. Anyway, not a finished work, but comments/critiques appreciated.

Matt i totally enjoyed this. I mean enjoyed it. Delightful to listen to. It has just an edge of a gypsy vibe. You should try it on a Selmer-Maciferri sometime. I love the rhythmic pulse you give it. I think you'd enjoy Joe Pass's quartet version on Appasionato.

I always enjoy the clips in these threads, but you have actually inspired me here. I'm re-thinking my decision not to work on "Tenderly" because of this.

**joe2758** · 03-23-2018, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I always enjoy the clips in these threads, but you have actually inspired me here. I'm re-thinking my decision not to work on "Tenderly" because of this.

I hope so! there's still 3 more weeks, plus you can still post after if you need more time

**PaulW10** · 03-23-2018, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

I hope so! there's still 3 more weeks, plus you can still post after if you need more time

I totally agree with Joe,Lawson. It would be great for you to post something for this thread!

Since thread #2 sputtered after two weeks, and then the #3 train left the station without me, I'm wondering now if we shouldn't be doing these a little quicker than monthly to keep momentum and excitement going. Especially if we know what the upcoming song threads will be, people can get ready for them and be waiting to post. What does everyone think about that? I'm thinking of going to the fortnightly as some suggested early on. What does everyone think?

Also, along those lines perhaps after Shadow of Your Smile we should do a new poll with new suggestions which will help us decide what songs to do for the next several months? What does everyone think about that?

**joe2758** · 03-23-2018, 06:10 PM

Just for me personally, I like the 4 weeks because it would allow me to participate in both this and PS thread. I think if I do one solo tune and one improv tune (in the PS) per month that is a good pace for me (my practice time is very low). I'm game for whatever, I realize no one will stop me from posting in old ones, and that I don't need to do each one.

Anyway, can you make sure "Laura" is on the poll? Would love to do that and see the others arrangements

**lawson-stone** · 03-23-2018, 06:19 PM

I like the 4-weeks too because I participate in several study groups, and would like to see the Jimmy Raney/Aebersold group revived. I have NEVER had a more profitable learning time than working on the Jimmy Raney solos from the Vol. 20 Jamey Aebersold play-a-long set. talk about bebop... whoa.

Anyhow, to be in a lot of them, I have to move back and forth among projects. I totally get it that this is solely MY problem, but that's my issue.

I also have to say I haven't enjoyed the tenor of the conversation here at times. On the Raney group, if you didn't play, you didn't talk. Period. It wasn't really harshly done, it was just an unspoken thing. We didn't reply to people chiming in on things who didn't get under the burden with us and post their efforts.

When the only talkers are the players, the whole conversation improves dramatically.

Of course... here I am talking but not posting a clip... I guess now I got to do one.

**lawson-stone** · 03-23-2018, 07:23 PM

Okay so here's my "Tenderly" clip--and with all due respect to Matt, this really is a read-through after maybe 20 minutes of fooling around with the tune. All the chords are very standard voicings, nothing special, and really, it's not even a solo-guitar ready setting of the tune. I like to have tunes I can play a bit more up-tempo because I find most solo guitar performances boring since everything is a ballad played out of tempo. Joe Pass was the master of mixing the tempos and I like to have tunes I can play at least at a medium pace. So that's how I've tried this one.

Somehow in the last 4 measures I totally blanked on my chord-melody fingerings... don't know what happened there...

**matt.guitarteacher** · 03-23-2018, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by PaulW10

Hey Matt,

I just went back and watched this video a second time when I was eating lunch and really think it's cool. You've got the ability to really get a natural groove going and sounding like more than one guitar. In fact, I had to listen closely because often I thought you did have a second guitar comping in a track underneath you. The tempo you use here and the improv seem just right for this song to me. And I really like a flatpick on nylon like that. Very nice.

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Matt i totally enjoyed this. I mean enjoyed it. Delightful to listen to. It has just an edge of a gypsy vibe. You should try it on a Selmer-Maciferri sometime. I love the rhythmic pulse you give it. I think you'd enjoy Joe Pass's quartet version on Appasionato.

I always enjoy the clips in these threads, but you have actually inspired me here. I'm re-thinking my decision not to work on "Tenderly" because of this.

Wow guys. Thanks so much. That's very gracious. I'm humbled.

I really did have to put some time in just to get that clammy take. The gypsy effect is really just a nylon string thing I think. That and being a bit arp heavy. I'm a bit lazy with recording. I need to actually plug in the thin line and record with it, as that's the instrument I do 99% of my practicing on (unplugged). That classical is in pretty bad shape, but it's an easy you with a phone in a busy household.

Got a chance to listen to some other takes today and have really enjoyed them. A crazy amount of diversity in styles here. Sorry to not have commented. I've been up to my neck in cold-weather garden planting and car maintenance this week.

**John A.** · 03-24-2018, 01:22 AM

OK, here's a late-night attempt, keeping it quiet, trying not to wake anybody. I've actually been fooling around with this on and off (without recording anything) for a while. I've had the Johnny Smith version in my head, though not my hands and I had to shake that. Then I spent some time on some more involved arrangement and improv ideas, but nothing really gelled until last night before bed, when I thought of the ending I do here (duh, do a tag) after a pretty straight chord melody head. As usual, technical gremlins drove me a bit nuts and kept from getting a completely clean take ...