Solo Guitar Tune #2 - Here's That Rainy Day

[grahambop]

Absolutely Joe, in fact I find it invaluable for putting together solo guitar arrangements, with lots of voices moving and so on. Could never do that so well before.

[lawson-stone]

I'm only mildly dangerous in theory, but this is a really good lesson for me Lawson. I think I need to think of the chords more in terms of the scale. This helps in figuring out subs like you describe here.

Some subs I really like using
1. iii for I like you mention above, especially when the melody note is the root of the I chord
2. min7 on the 5th of a 7th chord to replace the 7th (is there an easier way to describe that)?
3. Tri-tones (down or up one fret and down or up one string). I like these because they're so easy to spot on the fly and open new possibilities which then lead back to #2 as an option. These also help easily create descending bass lines (instead of moving up in 4ths).

Are there other tips and techniques people can share for substitutions etc?

On #2 I think you might mean a II to a v? For G7 play Dm7?


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[joe2758]

some inspiration!

[PaulW10]

On #2 I think you might mean a II to a v? For G7 play Dm7?


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I may have said it backwards? The one I'm thinking about is from the Mickey Baker Jazz Guitar Book I which I feel is my little guitar bible in a way! Here how he describes it:

The fifth of any dominant chord can be substituted in place of the Dominant itself. Let's say that you have two bars of D7. All right the 5th of D is A........A minor is a very close relative of D7. Now you know that if you have a Dominant 7 chord you can substitute its relative minor which is the 5th of the chord.

I use this all the time. I must say I was confused by that sentence as A isn't the relative minor of D, right, but I think he meant something different.

Edit: Actually the way you say it Lawson makes a lot more sense than the way Mickey does here.

[lawson-stone]

I may have said it backwards? The one I'm thinking about is from the Mickey Baker Jazz Guitar Book I which I feel is my little guitar bible in a way! Here how he describes it:

The fifth of any dominant chord can be substituted in place of the Dominant itself. Let's say that you have two bars of D7. All right the 5th of D is A........A minor is a very close relative of D7. Now you know that if you have a Dominant 7 chord you can substitute its relative minor which is the 5th of the chord.

I use this all the time. I must say I was confused by that sentence as A isn't the relative minor of D, right, but I think he meant something different.

Edit: Actually the way you say it Lawson makes a lot more sense than the way Mickey does here.

I always just called it "The ii of the V." I think of any dominant chord, and ask "What would the ii be leading into it?" the reason it works is sharing 2 key chord tones. Dm7=D F A C and G7= G B D F

It's similar to why the flat-five sub works. G7=G B D F Db7= Db F Ab B and here they share 3rd and 7th, crucial tones.

[PaulW10]

I always just called it "The ii of the V." I think of any dominant chord, and ask "What would the ii be leading into it?" the reason it works is sharing 2 key chord tones. Dm7=D F A C and G7= G B D F

It's similar to why the flat-five sub works. G7=G B D F Db7= Db F Ab B and here they share 3rd and 7th, crucial tones.

That is a very good and easier way to look at it and makes more theoretical sense.

And the flat-five sub is the same as the tritone sub, right? Different name?

I've gotten into the habit, not sure if it's good or bad, to rely on the fingerboard to see the intervals. (i.e. If I'm looking for the 5th I go up a string on same fret, same thing 4th in other direction. The tri-tone is made easy in my head by looking at the kitty corner fret).

I should probably just know them all in my head and not have to look. In reality I probably could name most of the common ones if I really had to, but the fretboard is right there to tell me, so I get lazy!!

[lawson-stone]

That is a very good and easier way to look at it and makes more theoretical sense.

And the flat-five sub is the same as the tritone sub, right? Different name?

I've gotten into the habit, not sure if it's good or bad, to rely on the fingerboard to see the intervals. (i.e. If I'm looking for the 5th I go up a string on same fret, same thing 4th in other direction. The tri-tone is made easy in my head by looking at the kitty corner fret).

I should probably just know them all in my head and not have to look. In reality I probably could name most of the common ones if I really had to, but the fretboard is right there to tell me, so I get lazy!!

Yes, flat-five is the tritone. I am pretty dependent on those visual cues as well. Recently I've been experimenting more with altered dominant chords-my "minor" treatment of HTRD was one of those. I just decided to forget about the roots and play the melody on top, and put an altered dominant chord underneath, then use any bass note that made sense within reach. Yeah.. you saw how that went...

But it was still fun exercise and I learned some things that were helpful.

Like the opening sequence of HTRD is really just a I VI II V in subs. I is normal, the other 3 chords are played via flat-five subs. Reversing some of them and using the III for the I and you get "One Note Samba": Bm Bb A Ab in G, like Dm Db C B in Bb.

[PaulW10]

Yes, flat-five is the tritone. I am pretty dependent on those visual cues as well. Recently I've been experimenting more with altered dominant chords-my "minor" treatment of HTRD was one of those. I just decided to forget about the roots and play the melody on top, and put an altered dominant chord underneath, then use any bass note that made sense within reach. Yeah.. you saw how that went...

But it was still fun exercise and I learned some things that were helpful.

Like the opening sequence of HTRD is really just a I VI II V in subs. I is normal, the other 3 chords are played via flat-five subs. Reversing some of them and using the III for the I and you get "One Note Samba": Bm Bb A Ab in G, like Dm Db C B in Bb.

Very interesting types of things to try. I'm inspired to do so!

[TLerch]

I may have said it backwards? The one I'm thinking about is from the Mickey Baker Jazz Guitar Book I which I feel is my little guitar bible in a way! Here how he describes it:

The fifth of any dominant chord can be substituted in place of the Dominant itself. Let's say that you have two bars of D7. All right the 5th of D is A........A minor is a very close relative of D7. Now you know that if you have a Dominant 7 chord you can substitute its relative minor which is the 5th of the chord.

I use this all the time. I must say I was confused by that sentence as A isn't the relative minor of D, right, but I think he meant something different.

Edit: Actually the way you say it Lawson makes a lot more sense than the way Mickey does here.

I learned from Ted to call this "companion minor" definitely not relative minor and not always a ii to a V7 (putting Bmin7 in front of E7 in the key of C major isnt a ii-V its vii III7) Sometimes min7b5 sounds nice and sometimes min7 depends on the environment. but how ever we think of it or call it its clear that we use this type of sub a lot, right.

[joe2758]

yea Barry Harris calls them “important minor”

[lawson-stone]

I learned from Ted to call this "companion minor" definitely not relative minor and not always a ii to a V7 (putting Bmin7 in front of E7 in the key of C major isnt a ii-V its vii III7) Sometimes min7b5 sounds nice and sometimes min7 depends on the environment. but how ever we think of it or call it its clear that we use this type of sub a lot, right.

When I called it a ii-V I was thinking more in terms of the immediate relationship. I know of course to the key it's not ii-V, but it's a convenient way to think of it. It's one of those thing where the correct theoretical statement (m7 based on the 5th of the dominant chord) is more cumbersome and harder to remember than thinking of it as an "on the fly ii-V"

[TLerch]

Yes Lawson, I get what you mean and I think most jazz types would also just call this relationship a two five. I tend to be a bit meticulous about this stuff but my comment wasn't intended as a criticism just adding my perspective to the conversation.

Tim

[PaulW10]

I learned from Ted to call this "companion minor" definitely not relative minor and not always a ii to a V7 (putting Bmin7 in front of E7 in the key of C major isnt a ii-V its vii III7) Sometimes min7b5 sounds nice and sometimes min7 depends on the environment. but how ever we think of it or call it its clear that we use this type of sub a lot, right.

Tim, companion minor is the perfect name for it (although important minor is good too). I always tended to think of the chords as "companions" to each other. Along with tri-tones it's the one substitution that easily comes to my mind.

[lawson-stone]

Yes Lawson, I get what you mean and I think most jazz types would also just call this relationship a two five. I tend to be a bit meticulous about this stuff but my comment wasn't intended as a criticism just adding my perspective to the conversation.

Tim

Tim
As an academic, I totally get what you're saying. The problem with some of our "hip pocket" or "working" theory is that it can ingrain erroneous ideas in our minds and that can come back on us. So I respect your wanting to get it right.

Maybe a better way to say is to connect it with the cycle of 4ths/5ths, which I learned as ascending 4ths. So I learned "On a dominant, play the preceding cycle chord as a m7." So on C7, G precedes on the cycle, so Gm7. For me it all ends up being the cycle somehow.

[lawson-stone]

While we're on this, when I learned the Cycle of 4ths/5ths (I learned it as ascending 4ths, clockwise), I learned it as the "Chord Clock." So I learned things like, for any dom7, count back 1 hour and play m7. Or, for a m7, go ahead one hour and play the dominant sound. For relative minor, count back 3 "hours." For secondary relative minor, count back 4 "hours." The critical key roots are together: tonic (center), subdominant (one hour ahead), dominant (one hour back). And the sequence of flats in key signatures is mirrored, etc.

Since being in jazz, I don't hear the "clock" analogy used very much, but it helped me a lot at a formative time in my learning.

[PaulW10]

While we're on this, when I learned the Cycle of 4ths/5ths (I learned it as ascending 4ths, clockwise), I learned it as the "Chord Clock." So I learned things like, for any dom7, count back 1 hour and play m7. Or, for a m7, go ahead one hour and play the dominant sound. For relative minor, count back 3 "hours." For secondary relative minor, count back 4 "hours." The critical key roots are together: tonic (center), subdominant (one hour ahead), dominant (one hour back). And the sequence of flats in key signatures is mirrored, etc.

Since being in jazz, I don't hear the "clock" analogy used very much, but it helped me a lot at a formative time in my learning.

I like that chord clock imagery Lawson. It's similar to the way I use the tuning of the guitar to find intervals. I don't know how many years I played before someone told me, or I read, why the guitar is tuned in 4ths to begin with! It really is a roadmap. The chord clock you describe is similar as a helpful tool.

[lawson-stone]

I like that chord clock imagery Lawson. It's similar to the way I use the tuning of the guitar to find intervals. I don't know how many years I played before someone told me, or I read, why the guitar is tuned in 4ths to begin with! It really is a roadmap. The chord clock you describe is similar as a helpful tool.

I originally found it in F. Noad's Playing the Guitar. But a teacher I had later is the one who really showed me how to use it, and also the value, strangely enough, of putting "B" in the 12 o'clock position. It puts the flats on the left of the 12-6 line, and reinforces the order of the flats B-E-A-D-G-C-F then Bb Eb Ab Db Gb. I never thought much about the sharps, as guitarists, we never seem to struggle much with the sharp keys. Learning it this way you naturally think in terms of ii-V-I because every 3 positions is that sequence.

[John A.]

Hey guys, your versions are sounding good. I was away for a week, and have had no downtime since getting back to do a fresh arrangement/take. This is one I did a couple of years ago. Hope that's legal. If not, I'll take my 50 lashes with a wet noodle like a man, and try to get another version together before time is up.

John

[diminix]

Here's my attempt... My second chord melody ever. Gave up my aim to approach it in a "more systematic way" quite fast. Still trial and error. Felt harder than DOWAR in some aspects--especially coming up with an solution for the melody riding around the same note for a long time. Overall, it got a bit easier, as some forumites have predicted.

This time I saved myself the horrible recording trials with the microphone. Just used the tab with its built in micro, resulting in an audio track almost inaudible, with parasitic noise as its main component. Didn't try to record too many times to have a flawless performance, just left it as is. Still frustrating, but I'll spend my scarce free time on chord melody, rather than on the recording aspects...

[John A.]

Ok, so I wound up with some time today, and threw this together. It's multi-part experiment, technical and musical.


Musically it's not really that much of an experiment. The head arrangement is pretty much what I always do on this tune. The second chorus is all improv on the first ending; the second ending starts with a little walking bass/chord motif I came up with that leads into restating that last 8 bars of the head. The previous version I posted is rhythmically really stiff and poorly phrased, so this was an attempt to do improve on that. Given all the technical fussing around I was doing, it was a bit of a challenge to play, and it took me several tries to get a non-terrible complete take.

Technically it was an attempt to confuse myself with as much in the way of new recording tools as possible. On that front, it was a wild success. This is my first attempt at recording my Godin Kingpin through my Princeton Reverb. As a follow up to the conversation on the DOWAR thread about how to use an external mic or interface with an android device, I did this with a Zoom H2 plugged into the USB port on my Samsung Galaxy J7, phone, using the Open Camera app. There are some glitches in the audio that I think are a function of how the levels are set on the Zoom, but otherwise it worked Ok; there's also a bit of amp feedback due to my not paying attention to where I was standing. Also, even though I set the Zoom close to the amp, it picked up a lot of sound from the room, including a lot of finger squeak; the sound is also quite a bit brighter than the sound of the amp in the room. I'm guessing that with some further tweaking, I can get this sounding better, but probably not as good as a well placed mic into a DAW. The previous version is a different guitar, using an Samsung phone's built in mic and video recorder. I'm not sure which amp I used for it (could have been either a Fender Champion 20 or a Roland MicroCube), but it was definitely not my PR. Not an apples-to-apples comparison, but knowing what I know about the sound of my guitars and amps, the Zoom into the Android sounds way better than the Android's native recording features.

John

[John A.]

So this afternoon I got to thinking about minors in HTRD. I also sat down with the guitar and started playing with it, and at one point hit "record." That was a mistake, but not nearly as serious a mistake as hitting "upload."

Just so you will all feel even better about your own versions...kind like if Dracula had played it?

Nice reharmonization, with an emphasis on harm ;-).

Just kidding -- that's definitely different. I sometimes do it in minor (a lot of people play at that way, and I go with the flow, even though I prefer major). Typically it's just the first couple of bars, and then it goes back to the original changes, but I like they way you extended the whole minor concept.

John

[lawson-stone]

Nice reharmonization, with an emphasis on harm ;-).

Just kidding -- that's definitely different. I sometimes do it in minor (a lot of people play at that way, and I go with the flow, even though I prefer major). Typically it's just the first couple of bars, and then it goes back to the original changes, but I like they way you extended the whole minor concept.

John

Love the joke! "Harm" is what I was thinking the first time I re-watched the video. I was just trying to (a) not ever play the original chord and (b) use a chord that still somehow had movement. Sometimes I failed, for sure. "Take home" for me, though, was on m. 5-6 play with the EbMaj7 and Ab7b5 chords. That was a keeper for throwing a curve into the tune. I also liked chromaticizing mm 1-4 with Bm7/Bb7/Am11/Abmaj7 as an alternative to the G/Bb/Eb/Ab movement. Also, you can do the underlying harmony of mm 1-4, which is just 1-6-2-5, or G E A D, then use the Eb sub idea on m. 5.

Anyhow, I think the clip is a mixture of good ideas and train-wreck execution, plus some awful ideas, but it was fun to break out of my own mould for a moment.

[diminix]

John A.--like your version of this months piece very much. A lot of interesting little things to analyze and steal from for my next weekend;-)

As a follow up to the conversation on the DOWAR thread about how to use an external mic or interface with an android device, I did this with a Zoom H2 plugged into the USB port on my Samsung Galaxy J7, phone, using the Open Camera app.

I have not touched the recording problems this time, just used the Open Camera on my Galaxy Tab with the built in micro. That didn't work too well... I don't know the Zoom H2 you're using, looks like a recorder. It seems that it is possible to use that device as a microphone that is attached to the USB port of your phone?

Robert

[John A.]

John A.--like your version of this months piece very much. A lot of interesting little things to analyze and steal from for my next weekend;-)



I have not touched the recording problems this time, just used the Open Camera on my Galaxy Tab with the built in micro. That didn't work too well... I don't know the Zoom H2 you're using, looks like a recorder. It seems that it is possible to use that device as a microphone that is attached to the USB port of your phone?

Robert

Yes, the H2 is a recorder with two stereo mic pairs built in. You can use it record to its own storage, or as a stereo analog mic plugged into another device's analog audio input, or as a digital audio source via USB. There are some higher-end variants made by zoom and by tascam, but it's a pretty cool little box. I'll keep working at the settings, placement etc. to get a better sounding recording, but I thought it wasn't too bad for a first attempt. And thanks for your kind words.

John

[joe2758]

is the next tune going to be tenderly since it was next on the poll, or are we doing a new poll? i also noticed the practical standards thread just started tenderly