where to begin with solo jazz guitar

[Jazzy_Dan]

Is it generally advised to spend some time in jazz composition before going onto improvisation?

I think I may have set the bar too high. I've been into jazz a little over a year now coming from about 22 years of general guitar playing..ie indi rock, experimental, and what not. I'm making some good progress but I seem to have a hard time finding melodies when doing improvisation. I mean, I can improvise scales/lines when playing a 2 5 1 progression for example, but there's nothing particularly great sounding about the melodies coming out of it; It sounds like a bland story when doing it. It's a lot easier to write melodies when thinking it all through and working stuff out; I can hear what should come next (after each chord/note) much easier when doing it this way.

[TH]

So many threads on this topic. I was thinking we were due for one about now. Hey there Jazzy Dan.
Let me ask a few questions out of curiousity. Can you play a melody by ear? What do you want to be able to do? Do you mean you want to solo on guitar, or you want to play guitar solo? Can you hear a chord and in general start to be able to identify the chord quality and the place it resides in a diatonic scale? (Can you tell chords by function?)

Your posting gives me very little idea of what you're working with, even what you want to be able to do, no less what gaps to fill to get there.

But no, I don't think you need to "Study jazz composition" to improvise, but I do believe you need to know the guitar like a composer so you are aware of your options, what your choices are at any given point in a song form and have some idea of how that relates to that fingerboard.

You also need to train your ear. I believe this is essential every step of the way.

It'd be really helpful to know a little more about what you're asking. Finding melodies. Yes. What are you practicing? Scales? Notes?
Are you actually thinking and hearing something you can build a series of notes from? Tell me about your concept of phrasing? What is your motivation for putting notes down to play? Where does your phrasing come from? How's your rhythmic vocabulary? I'd really like to know, and I think these questions will be good for you to answer.

Can you listen to a recording and imagine/sing something that feels good? Is this different from when you play guitar? Which process can you relate to more?

Yes, you can study a lot of notes and even other people's notes. What do you think music is about? What is the WHY of your soloing process? What do you want to do?

These are questions I think are important to consider. But that's the way I think.

Maybe someone else will tell you it's about playing some scales. Maybe that's you too.
Let me know where you are in the process, and if there're questions you can ask, there are good answers to be had.

It's an exciting place to be. Tell me how it looks from where you are.

David

[Jazzy_Dan]

Can I play melodies by ear? I can find individual notes on the guitar when hearing them on a radio or CD (most of the time), but I cannot always find chords that I hear.

As far as what I want to do exactly, I'd like to be able to sit with my guitar with no accompaniment, and improvise, be it playing chords or lines...Ideally, a combination of both.

When sitting and practicing, I CAN usually hear the chords (in my head) that I think should be played next, but I'm not usually successful on the first attempt. Sometimes, a few chords need to be tried before I get what I'm looking for.

I think my biggest problem is transitioning from chord to chord...ie Finding those transition notes that tie the chords together well and at the same time accomplishes the melody I'm looking for. It seems to sound better when I play along with a pulse, as opposed to playing in free-time; maybe that just something that comes with more experience?

[rlrhett]

Do you mean you wish to play solo guitar like Joe Pass or Martin Taylor? Because neither of them just sit down and spontaneously play a new tune as a solo musician. Joe Pass would play a standard with a known melody and progression.

Of course, the best solo players could take these standards and embellish them over a second or third chorus, or even create new melodies over established progressions while self accompanying.

That said, few guitar players can truly play solo. Fewer still can compose a solo guitar arrangement of a known tune. To do both with the fluidity and freedom of Joe Pass is something only the stars in the firmament can do. Spontaneously composing a new melody to a new accompaniment seems beyond the ken of man to me.

This is all near and dear to me because I dream of being able to compose my own solo guitar arrangements and perform them. I think improvisation flows naturally from playing an arrangement over and over, especially if you made it. You are constantly experimenting to find a better arrangement. I rarely play an arrangement exactly the same way. By the tenth time or so noticeable changes creep in.

That is one player's perspective. YMMV. But what has been a long but fruitful road for me is to learn the art of arranging for solo guitar. Improvising as a solo guitar player is too much to also contemplate. For me, just beginning to understand how arrange has been the subject of serious study for the last few years.

Hope that helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jazzy_Dan]

Do you mean you wish to play solo guitar like Joe Pass or Martin Taylor?

Yes ...and I don't mean I want to imitate their personal style, but the basic idea of playing without accompaniment (other people)

That was some liberating insight you gave...thanks

[WILSON 1]

It's been said by the greats..."know the melody".

It would be difficult to believe that you could play the exact melodic line 100 times in every mode on your instrument.
Eventually things will start to happen and then begins the search for the knowledge of 'what happened?'

Get a track and pretend your are making your living playing the exact melodic line for some dance band...100 times...each mode.

You'll do something...or want to.

[Jazzy_Dan]

A while back somebody posted a Tim Lerch tutorial on solo guitar playing. It was helpful, but I just found this one when doing a Martin Taylor search on YouTube. It's a little bit of a different angle. Definitely helpful

[Guitarzen]

As far as what I want to do exactly, I'd like to be able to sit with my guitar with no accompaniment, and improvise, be it playing chords or lines...Ideally, a combination of both.

Improvising solo guitar is the hardest thing to do. To do it right, you first need to be able to:

1. Improvise solo lines, with accompaniment.
2. Comp in a group setting, and be able to be creative/improvise with your comping.

If you can't do 1 & 2, in a group setting really well, you sure as hell won't be able to do it solo with no accompaniment. Creating chord melody style arrangements comes from being really good at doing each part alone: chords, melody & bass. Not to mention having a pretty thorough knowledge of music theory, for example how to harmonize a scale, voice leading, cadences, modulation, chord substitution, and more etc...

And then to IMPROVISE this stuff, you have to be a complete master of all of the above, i.e., you've practiced this stuff in all keys for so many thousands of hours that you can do it without thinking, from muscle memory. Not only that but really before I even created my first chord melody, let alone improvised one, I had a vast repertoire of hundreds of jazz tunes (played in a group context), and about 70 solo guitar arrangements (that other people made) that I could play from memory. And now, after 27 years, a music degree, and a metric-shit-ton of practicing all my scales, modes, arpeggios, chord forms on all string sets, and essentially having the entire fretboard memorized, I can finally improvise a chord-melody arrangement on the fly, at a BASIC level. Just saying. I think you may be jumping ahead??? It sounds like you may need to do some of the prerequisite work for several years before you are ready for what you say your goal is?

[Jazzy_Dan]

@Guitarzen

That makes sense. When I see solo guitar players I don't always understand exactly where they are coming from, which is why I posted the question. What comes to mind is: Are they playing a chord progression they worked out previously? Are they playing a chord progression that somebody else wrote? Are they improvising on a "standard" chord progression? I get the sense that most of the time that they playing "standard" chord progressions/songs with some added improvisation; So like a 50% standard chord progression with 50% added improvisation, which is what I've been trying to do. When trying to do it "on the fly", I end up tripping over myself, but when I take my time and work stuff out beforehand, and THEN play it, that what works better for me. So I started getting the feeling that I've been setting the bar too high, hence my original question.

[jordanklemons]

Is it generally advised to spend some time in jazz composition before going onto improvisation?

I think I may have set the bar too high. I've been into jazz a little over a year now coming from about 22 years of general guitar playing..ie indi rock, experimental, and what not. I'm making some good progress but I seem to have a hard time finding melodies when doing improvisation. I mean, I can improvise scales/lines when playing a 2 5 1 progression for example, but there's nothing particularly great sounding about the melodies coming out of it; It sounds like a bland story when doing it. It's a lot easier to write melodies when thinking it all through and working stuff out; I can hear what should come next (after each chord/note) much easier when doing it this way.

Hey Dan,

I think it's tough for anyone to be able to give you legit advice about what you need to do or work on without really knowing what you sound like first... what you're capable of, what you're weak at, and what you're strong at.

At the very least, I'd recommend recording some clips (audio is fine, video is better) and sharing it here so people can get an idea. Ideally, I'd recommend finding a teacher that you really dig. If you're looking to focus on playing solo guitar... I'd say to find a guitar player who's solo playing really blows your mind, and find a way to work with them. If it can't be in person, skype is cool too... as long as they're a good teacher who knows how to explain things clearly and give assignments, and who's comfortable using the online tools.

There are many styles of solo guitar. The Joe Pass thing... the Jim Hall stuff (not that he played solo as frequently as Joe, not recorded that much... but it's there)... the Bill Frisell... the Charlie Hunter... everyone's got their own unique approach.

There are lots of guys on the forum that play solo.. again, each with their own flair. I tend to be very open and not use too much chord melody. It's definitely there... but I love playing single note lines leaving plenty of empty space and filling in some of that space with chord stabs, comping for myself. Sometimes I'll use more traditional chord melody, other times I might just use 2 or 3 note ideas to imply harmony. But everyone's different. A lot of it will boil down to what you'd like to hear in your playing. Find someone that comes the closest to that sound, and work with them.

That's my feelings at least.

***EDIT

Here's a few videos of my own solo playing. I'm not even going to begin mentioning other members by name because there are SO many great solo guitar players here, and I know I will leave people out and forget to mention them. But poke around in the showcase area or do a search for solo guitar and just spend an afternoon or two watching everyone until you find the person that you think matches your aesthetic preference the closest. Then just reach out and send them a private message. See if you can take lessons... or at least get a nudge in the right direction as far as books and practices go...

Maybe some other people can share some solo playing videos here to get the ball rolling for you checking everyone out.

[Jazzy_Dan]

Cool Jordan! I like that stuff

I'll put some clips together and post them as soon as I can

[emanresu]

I'm making some good progress but I seem to have a hard time finding melodies when doing improvisation. I mean, I can improvise scales/lines when playing a 2 5 1 progression for example, but there's nothing particularly great sounding about the melodies coming out of it; It sounds like a bland story when doing it.

When having the tune already ready for soloing- before doing it, play a few nice melodies by ear on the same key(s). That always helps me to wake up the "point" of the whole campaign.

If going for a meaningful solo, while doing it - try to remember what you've just done and try to play a response and elaborate that. Also try to think ahead. It's not always easy and its deceptively obvious - we don't think about the obvious very often. But when trying to do that, it can keep you on the track. It's not easy but it ain't hard either.

When it's already kinda working, record your stuff and listen if there was any phrases that are actually good already. While playing, those can slip by without noticing. It's a good thing to listen yourself with a positive attitude, searching for gems. I know for sure that one guy became awesome soloist, copying his own better phrases.

[Jazzy_Dan]

Perhaps part of my problem is my understanding of what "composition" and "improvisation" is. In the context of jazz music, it's my understanding (maybe I've gotten the wrong impression) that "composition" is working out melodies and harmonies BEFORE playing them, and that "improvisation" is writing stuff "ON THE FLY". Although I am aware that improvisation doesn't necessarily have to be stuff written "on the fly"; It can be worked out before hand.

There are lots of terms and lingo in the jazz world it seems. Maybe I haven't quite gotten the lingo down.

When I say that I want to be able to "improvise" with my guitar with no body playing along with me, I'm talking about playing "standard" chord progressions and using some "ON THE FLY" improvisation to tie the chords together and create melodies. I'm not necessarily referring to writing something "ON THE SPOT" without any prior thought as to how the song will song.

When watching Tim Lerch on YouTube, and his description of how he "improvises", what he describes is having the chord progressions worked out before hand, and improvising some of the melody "on the fly" so that he doesn't have to memorize enough music for a 3-4 hours set.

Whatever the case, I get some short clips of what I do "solo" pretty soon, and post them.

[jordanklemons]

Perhaps part of my problem is my understanding of what "composition" and "improvisation" is. In the context of jazz music, it's my understanding (maybe I've gotten the wrong impression) that "composition" is working out melodies and harmonies BEFORE playing them, and that "improvisation" is writing stuff "ON THE FLY". Although I am aware that improvisation doesn't necessarily have to be stuff written "on the fly"; It can be worked out before hand.

There are lots of terms and lingo in the jazz world it seems. Maybe I haven't quite gotten the lingo down.

When I say that I want to be able to "improvise" with my guitar with no body playing along with me, I'm talking about playing "standard" chord progressions and using some "ON THE FLY" improvisation to tie the chords together and create melodies. I'm not necessarily referring to writing something "ON THE SPOT" without any prior thought as to how the song will song.

When watching Tim Lerch on YouTube, and his description of how he "improvises", what he describes is having the chord progressions worked out before hand, and improvising some of the melody "on the fly" so that he doesn't have to memorize enough music for a 3-4 hours set.

Whatever the case, I get some short clips of what I do "solo" pretty soon, and post them.

Yeah I think many people mean many different things (even if only subtly different) when they use some of these words. We've seen plenty of debates on the forum about what exactly defines improvisation and whether it must be COMPLETELY made up spontaneously and different in every way from what we did before.

I have no answers for this... opinions, sure... but no objective answers. And anyone who says they do is probably fooling themselves.

My feeling for myself is that it's a lot like cooking dishes. A jazz standard is sort of like a particular dish. It has a main set of ingredients that everyone sort of accepts. A chord progression (or at least a few different versions that different players use and accept), a melody, a basic rhythmic structure, etc.

As a chef, you're free to pretty much just recreate those ingredients if you like. Whether you're "improvising" or not... nobody would argue that the meal doesn't taste good simply because you were sticking to what's been done. Likewise, if a tune sounds great, I personally don't mind whether it was improvised or not. Others might.

But you're also free to experiment. Maybe instead of using basil in the tomato sauce you could try oregano? Or instead of boiling x, you could bake it. Or whatever. Or you could do a complete deconstruction, take apart the ingredients and put them together in a totally new way.

There's so many different ways to approach these types of things. At the end of the day with cooking... does it taste good? Does it hit me in an emotional and sensual (in terms of the senses, not sexuality) way? I feel similar with music. Over the top physical coordination and worked out arrangements are impressive and will grab my attention... but ultimately I'm looking for someone to express themselves in a way that hits me emotionally and makes me forget how technically proficient they are. Cleverness can be fun, physical technique can be captivating... but at the end of the day, I want beautiful, melodic, lyrical, emotion storytelling. That's just my preference. It's what grabs me and holds me and doesn't let go. I come back to those players and albums every time. And for me it's sort of north on my compass as far as practice and big picture goals.

So yeah, the chord progression is somewhat set. But that doesn't mean the chord voicings I use will be set... or the rhythm I play it in... or how I get from one chord to another.... things like that might change frequently or never... just depending on how I'm feeling in any given moment. But there's always the respect for the ingredient. If it's a pasta dish, I'm going to use noodles. Whether they're thin, fat, long, short, circular, etc might change... and the sauce might too. But the noodle is the noodle.

[rlrhett]

Jazzy_Dan, I know I've commented before but I'll add just a little more.

First, it is my observation that the unofficial motto of this forum could easily be: "You kids get off my lawn!!!" So if you get some responses that seem overly strident (including mine) please don't let that discourage you.

Second, I think I know exactly what you want and I want it too. I love solo guitar, I love the musicianship of the best jazz musicians, and I love the sound of solo artist like Joe Pass and Lenny Breau. The thing is, the topic you are broaching is so big it doesn't lend itself to the kind of question you asked. It is a little like being totally blown away and excited after you go to an art museum. "Wow! How do they do that? I don't necessarily want to copy a Cezanne, but I want to know how to make cool art like that. Where do I start?" Your question might not be that broad, but it's in that realm.

How do people answer? Assuming that you are already an accomplished artist interested in understanding the nuances of Cezanne's style? Assuming you know nothing about creating an image on a canvas? Somewhere in between? I think we all have a strong human need to help and share our passions. We want to answer your questions, but there is some frustration of not being able to.

I really recommend you take some time to narrow down what you want to accomplish in a doable time period and within your skill sets, and then ask some questions. Also, do some research on the forum and the Internet in general.

So I hope you don't feel that this forum has been harsh or unwilling to understand. It mostly comes from a place of wanting to help.

That said...

I'll tell you a little of my journey rather than assume where you might be.

I came from a rock/blues/folk background. I wan't prepared at first to start nearly from scratch for playing solo guitar. But it soon became apparent that I needed to. The reason isn't because solo guitar is so complicated only weird music savants or people who practice shit-tons can do it. The reason is that solo guitar is fundamentally different, and it takes a different mind set and approach.
I have played guitar since the early eighties. I've played from Hendrix to fingerstyle blues (think Mississippi John Hurt). In all those styles the guitar is either an accompaniment or an improvised lead voice. It is almost never your job as a guitarist to state the melody of the tune you are playing. There are some exceptions like "Little Wing" or "Scuttlebutting", but in general a singer sings the song the rhythm guitar plays some chords and, when it is your time, you start shredding for a chorus or two.

When you are playing solo guitar, YOU have to play the melody. If you don't play the melody, no body knows what the heck you are playing. There is no singer to sing familiar lyrics. No one to yell out "The thrill is gone!..." or "Roxanne!!!..." to let people know why they should listen to you. If you "kinda" play a melody, people know. They DON'T LIKE IT. You don't take someone's favorite song and kinda play it. You can elaborate on a melody after you have stated it. You can rework it. But you had better be sure you can play it straight at least once.

It turns out that when I first started trying to play solo (not that long ago) I couldn't faithfully play even the simplest melody. 8 bars of a melody was hard, 32? Couldn't do it. I have a hundred licks that are a bar or two long that I can sprinkle at will into improvised leads. But even with years and years of playing, and I couldn't play note for note even the most familiar Beatles lines (insert whatever music you know for my references).

Step one was to reach back into my childhood classical guitar lessons and learn how to play a melody line faithfully, note for note, in proper time and rhythm. And then again. And then again. I still struggle with this.

Step two was to try to understand how to self accompany when I had a melody. TOTALLY different from the mindset of how to invent a melody on the fly to a set accompaniment.

So when you ask, "how do I improvise solo?", most people are going to react with, "can you even play solo?" Meaning, can you set yourself up and play a piece all by yourself so that the audience knows they have heard an actual piece of music rather than some pointless noodling? When everybody else in the band is playing a song, you can noodle and show your amazing chops and creativity. When you play solo, your first step it to let the audience know what they are listening to. Can you pull that off? If not, you have your answer as to where to begin.

[Cunamara]

The problem with playing solo guitar is that there is too much freedom, until one is well used to it. Playing with others constrains one's choices and that is actually good for creativity. For solo guitar, one has to know the song very thoroughly: melody, words if any, chords. It's best to not have to think about it (but that takes a long time, don't wait that long). Listen to Jordan's "Body And Soul" performance. It's masterful- he gets free and outside and yet the song is always present. You never doubt that you are listening to "Body And Soul" even as he reharmonizes, plays with time and meter, plays chromatically, etc. (Jordan, damn man, that is a whale of a performance of that tune. Holy smokes).

So, Joe Pass allegedly just spontaneously played the tunes but in reality he had mechanisms he fell back on. So does Martin Taylor. So did Johnny Smith. So did George Van Eps. So does Gene Bertoncini. Listen to those guys for inspiration and emulate the things you like. By the way, Gene Bertoncini looks at solo guitar like a tiny big band- big bands have head arrangements and nobody bitches about that, so he decided that he could have solo guitar head arrangements too. Listen to his CDs "Quiet Now" and "Body And Soul," also "Someone To Light Up My Life" (solo bossa nova guitar with percussion).

[TH]

Hi again Jazzy_Dan.
I'm just going to throw some ideas about what helped me. It's not really "Advice you should follow" but it's something that helped me when I was confronted by the desire to play solo. Yeah, it was the idea of playing solo that made me want to play improvised guitar. Whether it was Julian Bream playing Bach, Joe Pass virtuoso (which I was deeply blown away with when it first came out), or Ralph Towner who made me question "what IS jazz?".
One thing that seemed the magical aspect was the completeness of solo guitar; the freedom from any other players and the world unto itself it created-the sound of intimate orchestration.

So when I asked if you could play a melody by ear, it was because I wanted to see if your abilities on the instrument covered what I considered essential: The ability to play melody all over. When I play solo, which is a LOT of the time, I'm hearing a melody line but I'm also seeing it move around the fingerboard. Yes it took a while to get so I could do that, but that was part of my putting together the pieces. Melodies can move within a position, they can move up and down a string, and they can move with a combination of them both.
How you synthesize this vision in your own mind is up to you. I carry a map around in my head and fingers of all scale degrees across the entire fingerboard. I see what a pianist sees and all notes are connected intervalically. (I can talk more about this if it's useful).
Yes it was a lot of work but that's what I mean when I say can you play a melody. To me, if you can't hear it, and know where the sounds are on the fingerboard, then you're only playing through the fingers, by rote, and creative chord melody is much more difficult.

I see a melody and I can also see a bass note to a chord. That's your harmony. If you can play a melody, even part of a melody with confidence and awareness, then find the appropriate bass note, I think you'll see where the relationship of chords and melody comes from. Certainly that's the real basis for my chord soloing. Once I have the root of the chord and the melody, the rest is inner voices.

There's no formula for me, but there is a knowledge of fingerboard and an informed ear... assimilated to an intuitive level. If this seems like a mountain of work, sure it is but if you want it... really want it, that mountain is already yours, and it's your job to get to know the real estate that is already there in front of you.

Get to know melody thoroughly. Get to know melody in bass notes: that's root movement (have you ever played a walking bass line? Great fun and good exercise). Get to know melody in the upper strings: There's knowledge of the beauty of movement. Make an internal map to guide you at first and do have fun learning.

Hey, again, this is just the way I see it. It serves me well. Hope it sheds some light.

David

[pingu]

Solo guitar ....
I can't improv an arrangement (yet or poss ever)

It is very satisfying to do some of this stuff
solo , and you can mess with you're worked out
arrangements as much as you want !

I started by copying other people ,
Barney mainly cos some of it
is quite approachable and I play plectrum like him ,and cos I just like Barney's stuff ...

When you've stolen a couple of standards
Chords with melody on top
maybe do Darn that dream or a couple
of tunes you like ,
You will start to see how it all works
They all kinda have to work a certain way on
the standard tuned Guitar , that's just the way
it turns out

It gets easier with each new tune too

[jordanklemons]

Listen to Jordan's "Body And Soul" performance. It's masterful- he gets free and outside and yet the song is always present. You never doubt that you are listening to "Body And Soul" even as he reharmonizes, plays with time and meter, plays chromatically, etc. (Jordan, damn man, that is a whale of a performance of that tune. Holy smokes).

Oh my... that's awfully kind of you C. Thank you!

There were a few things that happened a few years ago that really changed my whole mindset, which naturally changed my approach to playing solo guitar... and I'm much happier now. I feel very at home with it. Almost like solo guitar is the natural state of playing guitar, and everything else is just a fun, more interactive, less responsibility version of it.

1) I totally agree with what was mentioned above regarding being influenced by big band charts. I started studying arranging (specifically for nonet) which REALLY changed my entire mindset. It took me off of the fretboard and thinking about what's "possible" or been done by others, and instead started thinking about just music and sound. Arranging for a 4 or 5 piece horn section with a rhythm section is such a great way to start viewing the music. Sometimes you just want one voice. Sometimes you want EVERY voice. Sometimes some combination of them. Loud, soft. Being able to harmonize the melody without thinking about pre-determined chord voicings, but instead based on what sounds the best and works for each voice. There are so many MUSIC related thoughts that are required to spend time on when arranging that don't need to be considered when sitting with a guitar. But learning to think about those things and then bring them to the guitar, for me, has done more to affect my solo playing (and my playing within an ensemble) then really any specific guitar practices.

2) Accepting that triads were just the way to go for me. It took me a while to really surrender to that and to start digging in to all the different ways they could work. But learning to let go of thinking about scales and modes and focus on making melodies by voice leading through triads was huge. Really help simplify and clarify my melodies. And with all that decluttered space, it freed me up to be more conversational between my soloing and my comping because there was less unnecessary stuff in both.

3) Studying, hanging, and playing with my teachers at grad school. I was so lucky to get to work with a bunch of my musical heroes. Seeing them up close, getting to know their personalities outside of the music and how human, artistic, and poetic they were about the music (which is near impossible to depict in method book or a theory lesson), and seeing how light-hearted they were about playing but at the same time how insanely seriously they took it... watching them play a tune where they never left the tune... everything they did they were doing for the tune... yet somehow it ALWAYS sounded like them. Sco never sounded like Bernstein, who never sounded like Shepik. They all had a way of just letting down their guard, not proving anything, and being in love with the moment and the tune... and somehow in the midst of that, a musical personality shined through.

I began studying jazz about 15 years ago and my first teacher was a Joe Pass nut. He had me arranging (terrible) chord melodies of standards every week... sort of in the style of Pass, but truly terrible. And I learned a lot from those experiences. But I got far more from just being around these guys and getting really honest with myself about what I wanted in my playing and the acceptance that something being hip and being cheesy and simple were NOT mutually exclusive.

Do you have anything posted on here Cunamara? I just realized I'm not sure that I've heard you play yet. My brain and memory are a little weak since last year, so maybe I just forgot :/

[fasstrack]

Is it generally advised to spend some time in jazz composition before going onto improvisation?

I think I may have set the bar too high. I've been into jazz a little over a year now coming from about 22 years of general guitar playing..ie indi rock, experimental, and what not. I'm making some good progress but I seem to have a hard time finding melodies when doing improvisation. I mean, I can improvise scales/lines when playing a 2 5 1 progression for example, but there's nothing particularly great sounding about the melodies coming out of it; It sounds like a bland story when doing it. It's a lot easier to write melodies when thinking it all through and working stuff out; I can hear what should come next (after each chord/note) much easier when doing it this way.

It seems like you're asking 2 questions, one about a concept of melody in improvising, and the other about solo playing.

As to melody: you know more than you think. Think of all the tunes you've heard and unconciously memorized. If that's not a stockpile of ideas for melodic improvising, I don't know what is. I don't mean play a series of quotes, I DO mean take the melodies apart and study their structure. Learn the lyrics. Your improvising will have more meaning if you use what I call 'musical memory'. I've been teaching----including young children---this for years, and it works. (Also, obviously, study the melodic soloists like Pres and Pops).

Re: solo playing, I think the trick is to have some kind of organized orchestral sense you can convey to the listener---so they don't feel something's 'missing'. Give them a sense of completeness, so they don't sense that 'Gee, where's the bass? Where's the drums?'. All you really need to do is give a sense of the time and harmony by referring to it. You don't need to state it in an obvious way---that can get old. Just give some sense that it's there: a strum, a bass note. And don't play single-string all the time, that's asking too much of the listener. They can't follow the song's form if you don't refer to the harmony in other ways.

You also can go a simpler route, especially on a ballad or rubato type playing: listen to the beautiful, simple way Wes handled While We're Young or (I think it's called) Mi Casa. It was chord melody, true, but he took his TIME, and allowed the listener to digest before proceeding with the next phrase. (The pianist Chris Anderson was also a master of this).

Hope that helps a little...

[Guitarzen]

@Guitarzen

That makes sense. When I see solo guitar players I don't always understand exactly where they are coming from, which is why I posted the question. What comes to mind is: Are they playing a chord progression they worked out previously? Are they playing a chord progression that somebody else wrote? Are they improvising on a "standard" chord progression?

The answer to those questions is: all of the above.

Jazzy_Dan, I'm going to give you some heartfelt advice, but it may not be what you want to hear and it may even bother you. But I only give this advice because I care and I want to help people succeed, and sometimes you need some honest advice instead of someone trying to be nice. Please understand the spirit I give this advice is with the best intentions. After listening to your recording I have the clear perception that you don't know your basic scales and/or how to properly use them over given chords. On casual listening I couldn't determine what some of the chords were, but it seemed the main chords in the back track were Amaj7 & Dmaj7? Anyways, I don't need to analyze the chords to hear that it didn't sound like you were really very clear in your mind what notes to play. I got the distinct feeling you were "fishing" around for good notes by ear. Sometimes you hit them, and many times you didn't. Now, this is really the crux of your problem: everyone who plays solo guitar successfully knows all their fundamental scales & arpeggios and can play them fluidly up and down the neck in any key. Let's be clear, there are no notes that you cannot use. I am a big fan of atonality, and even when soloing in a tonal manner I make my best effort to use all 12 tones. But you have to first know your basic scales & arpeggios and how to play tonally first before you can be successful playing highly chromatic and/or atonally, let alone solo and unaccompanied which is by far the most difficult thing to do well. So the best advice I can give to you is you need to work on your fundamentals. For example, just be able to solo over an Amaj7 & Dmaj7 chord using ONLY the notes of the A diatonic major scale OR A major pentatonic. If you can't do that at bare minimum, then you are not even ready to begin solo unaccompanied guitar. Learning to use one scale like those mentioned, in all positions of the neck will automatically make your playing sound 200% better. If the playing in the video is representative of 22 years of studying guitar, then it's clear you would be best off with a teacher. The problem here is you are asking about how to begin playing guitar at level 20, when you haven't even learned the skills to play guitar at level 2. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I think it's the most honest and direct answer you will get on this forum. The only way you can fix a problem is to know clearly what the problem is, in this case it's just the most fundamental musicianship skills -- just playing one single scale correctly.

I'm making some good progress but I seem to have a hard time finding melodies when doing improvisation.

Yes you can't find melodies if you don't know your scales or have an exceptionally good ear and level of connection to your instrument that you can play any note that you can imagine <----but that's the hard and inefficient way to get there. The easy way is learn your scales. Learn the theory behind them and how they work with chords.

[Jazzy_Dan]

@guitarzen. You assume much about me

Thanks everybody

[Guitarzen]

@guitarzen. You assume much about me.

I can only assess what you have shown us. Yes of course I do not know exactly everything about what you do and do not know, but my comments accurately reflect what's present in your video. Since in your video there was no demonstration of a basic understanding of how to play scales or arpeggios over chords, I have to assume that there is gap of knowledge there for you. But please, do post more and if you are not willing to listen to my comments, I'm sure others will be happy to comment. And maybe you will listen to them. Best of luck to you.

[emanresu]

I posted a reply directly to the question in OP. I assumed you had you're scales ready and THEN were in trouble. Now seeing your posted vid.. hm, listen to Guitarzen, he means well.

[jordanklemons]

Is it generally advised to spend some time in jazz composition before going onto improvisation?

I think I may have set the bar too high. I've been into jazz a little over a year now coming from about 22 years of general guitar playing..ie indi rock, experimental, and what not. I'm making some good progress but I seem to have a hard time finding melodies when doing improvisation. I mean, I can improvise scales/lines when playing a 2 5 1 progression for example, but there's nothing particularly great sounding about the melodies coming out of it; It sounds like a bland story when doing it. It's a lot easier to write melodies when thinking it all through and working stuff out; I can hear what should come next (after each chord/note) much easier when doing it this way.

Had a chance to check out your videos Dan, thanks for sharing them. And also went back and reread the OP. I apologize, as I think I may have misunderstood it originally when reading it. You named it "Where to begin with solo guitar"... and in my mind, I assumed that meant that you were asking how to begin being able to play jazz standards by yourself on the guitar with no rhythm section. That's what I personally think of as a jazz guitarist when someone asks how to play solo guitar. Just the context I'm coming from. Also why I shared all those videos of me playing with no rhythm section.

But after watching the video and rereading your OP, I think I misunderstood. It seems like you were asking more in terms of how does one solo (as a verb, not as an adjective) on the guitar in jazz? Is that correct? My confusion being, do you mean solo guitar as in playing the guitar alone? Or solo guitar as in how to develop stronger and more storytelling-like solos on the guitar.

Assuming I was wrong originally... I actually tend to often disagree with others regarding how to develop more melodic ideas when improvising. I see a lot of "scale" talk. I have nothing against scales in and of themselves... but I don't personally believe they're the best way to attain higher levels of melodic playing. A lot of this is based on styles and aesthetic preferences... but when I listen to my favorite players, I rarely hear anything that sounds like running scales. I hear melodies. Often times those melodies can be analyzed to fit within the boundaries of a scale. But that doesn't necessarily equate to knowing how to get inside those sounds and create them. It's like the difference between knowing the shapes of the lines painted onto a football field vs knowing how to play within the game. Knowing where the boundary lines are and where the yard markings are definitely helps play... but learning how to move on the field and who performs what jobs and how to work with your teammates and memorizing different plays... those are make a great football player.

If what you're trying to do is create melodies that you're happier with in a jazz-style setting... my personal opinion is that you should focus on creating more clarity with your lines. After listening to your videos I can say that I do hear what you're talking about... I heard some scale stuff at play, I heard a few arpeggios, I heard tension and resolution... but I don't hear much clarity. It's very difficult to produce clarity in lines that come from scales because scales offer a view of music that's purely democratic and egalitarian with respect to notes. But when composing and improvising within functional and tonal music, notes really aren't democratic... they function in a hierarchy of importance. Learning to take advantage of that is arguably the best way to create clarity when improvising.

For instance... can an improvisor play lines with no chords behind them and still let the listener know what the chord progression is? All of my favorite (and the best) improvisors were able to do this. A great sax player can improvise over the blues, and any jazz musician could hear it and know it was the 12 bar blues without ever hearing a single chord. The same with Giant Steps, All the Things You Are, etc.

The ability to insert harmonic movement into the melodic ideas (while still maintaining a sense of lyrical melodicism) is a challenging process... but it has been done, and anyone can learn to do it with the right mindset and a little commitment to the process... but it offers an incredible sense of clarity and musicality to the lines.

IF I'm understanding your OP correctly now and this is what you're asking about, my opinion would be to drop scales all together and practice voice leading through very basic triads as you move through the chord progression.

For instance, if the chord progression is
AMaj7 -> DMaj7
Practice improvising lines where you ONLY get A - C# - E over the AMaj7 chord and ONLY D - F# - A# over the DMaj7 chord.

The goal here is not to shred through the sickest sweep picking patterns of each at 250 bpm. The goal is to learn to hear, see, and navigate through chords with as little movement as necessary. In fact, going slower is often harder and more worthwhile. Try playing each chord for one measure and forcing yourself to play ONLY with half notes using the triad of each chord. That means you'll only get two notes per chord... one on beat 1, and the other on beat 3, and then you have to voice lead into the next chord. Over time this practice will lead to far more clarity and definition. Doesn't mean you'll never be "allowed" to bring in more scalar ideas... but growing and developing practices like this so that you can create harmonic definition in a melodic way for any chord progression anywhere on the fretboard is an incredible way to grow one's musical comfort level for improvisation.