The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    This is prompted by the "rant" thread about the audition video and the comments about rhythm and time.

    I think we can all agree we need to "feel" good time and rhythm for a soloist to swing. But that doesn't mean it has to be metronomically accurate- or that it's even desirable.

    I just spent some time listening carefully to Bucky Pizzarelli's "Solo Flight" and Joe Pass' "Virtuoso", tapping my foot and counting along with a chart on multiple tunes. Both of them will move the time around, playing rubato, then locking in for part of a chorus, adding beats & measures to do fills, etc. And particularly with Joe Pass, if I was a bass player I'd be lost in places.

    I think it's actually what makes it interesting and swinging, not lockstep- but the overall pulse and feel have to be there.

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  3. #2

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    Playing with time is one mode of expressiveness. If I wanted to march in lockstep, I'd play more baroque.

  4. #3
    When I hear great jazz pianists play rubato, it's highly organized. Rather then playing something which is straight but slows down and speeds up constantly, it's more about moving things around by varying the rhythmic articulation of basic rhythms.

    So many guitarists make a mess of rubato. Listen to Keith Jarrett and other great pianist's rubato playing.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by JGinNJ
    This is prompted by the "rant" thread about the audition video and the comments about rhythm and time.

    I think we can all agree we need to "feel" good time and rhythm for a soloist to swing. But that doesn't mean it has to be metronomically accurate- or that it's even desirable.

    I just spent some time listening carefully to Bucky Pizzarelli's "Solo Flight" and Joe Pass' "Virtuoso", tapping my foot and counting along with a chart on multiple tunes. Both of them will move the time around, playing rubato, then locking in for part of a chorus, adding beats & measures to do fills, etc. And particularly with Joe Pass, if I was a bass player I'd be lost in places.

    I think it's actually what makes it interesting and swinging, not lockstep- but the overall pulse and feel have to be there.
    Yeah, players that have great time can make rubato sound great, players who have lousy time can't make anything sound great.

    I love this example of a bass player following along with Joe Pass:


  6. #5

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    I've been profoundly influenced in my approach to solo playing, especially rubato ballads, not by guitarists (though I love and appreciate the great and good ones) but by a pianist, Chris Anderson.

    I got to be friendly and play with Chris in the '80s, and IMO his harmony, touch, sensitivity, knowledge of tunes----and SO many other things were and are quite inspiring.

    Specifically to answer the OP, Chris, when no one was in his way, had very loose, free time. It's liberating to hear, and eradicates silly anxieties re rhythmic 'correctness'.

    A good example of all of the above is below.

    Recommended recordings:

    Solo Ballads (and Solo Ballads 2---AlSut)

    Love Locked In (Mapleshade---he SINGS on 2 tracks, and you've never heard anything quite like it!).

    Enjoy, and learn from his unique artistry:


  7. #6

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    Completely Fine--If It's intentional.

    Just like painting...you do a portrait and it sucks because it sucks, it's not "abstract,"--you suck.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by JGinNJ
    I just spent some time listening carefully to Bucky Pizzarelli's "Solo Flight" and Joe Pass' "Virtuoso", tapping my foot and counting along with a chart on multiple tunes. Both of them will move the time around, playing rubato, then locking in for part of a chorus, adding beats & measures to do fills, etc. And particularly with Joe Pass, if I was a bass player I'd be lost in places.
    Joe's feel on the virtuoso recording is difficult to follow If you don't know the context/how to count it. A lot of those runs with alternating bass/chord, sort of double stops, have a "straight" eighths feel, sound like extra beats etc. Anyway, I think most of those are triplets. Sounds really funny if you hear them as eighths...

    His later video recordings wish you can find on YouTube are easier to follow. He implies more in the playing to give context to mere mortals, in addition to the assistance of visual cues where he's tapping his foot and moving etc. I would check out some of those later video performances. The tone's better anyway, and I actually prefer the later performances over Virtuoso anyway.

    Just my opinion.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-28-2017 at 11:53 PM.

  9. #8

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    It's difficult to follow the feel on Virtuoso because there is none. Joe got paid by the note.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Completely Fine--If It's intentional.

    Just like painting...you do a portrait and it sucks because it sucks, it's not "abstract,"--you suck.
    Right.

    Rubato is the Italian word for stolen and there's a big difference between petty theft and aggravated grand larceny.
    Last edited by mrcee; 03-29-2017 at 08:29 AM.

  11. #10

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    Well Rubato? Hmmm rubato is a subtle and sophisticated art, and is not merely taking a break cos you can't remember how it goes like what I do.

    As a result when I do the solo guitar thing my aim is always to play in a pulse. I know my limits haha :-) But also because, I think playing in a pulse is an important first step.

    Also I get a bit bored of meandering boneless jazz guitar solo pieces. Proper rubato isn't boneless of course.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well Rubato? Hmmm rubato is a subtle and sophisticated art, and is not merely taking a break cos you can't remember how it goes like what I do.

    As a result when I do the solo guitar thing my aim is always to play in a pulse. I know my limits haha :-) But also because, I think playing in a pulse is an important first step.

    Also I get a bit bored of meandering boneless jazz guitar solo pieces. Proper rubato isn't boneless of course.
    During classical voice lessons, working all on arias where expression is as important as technique, I kept hitting the wall on this.

    An unaccompanied performer can of course do anything but ... as was shown me repeatedly by recording my attempts, is it ... wise? One has to normally have a base for the rubato to actually have a worthwhile effect, or it just sounds meandering.

    And with an accompanist or orchestra, if you can't keep a base pattern, with *specific* places you vary for effect, as noted by others here one drives the accompanying musicians nuts besides probably sounding like a beginner.

    It's all relative. And dang, but I found it hard to keep a straight beat in all sections no matter the movement of notes and words. It took a TON of work just to get universally precise enough that my choices for rubato actually worked.

    And that's why on guitar attempting jazz I practice even scales quite frequently with the metronome. I can throw in subtle time shifts like nobody's business. But they're so bloody obvious in a recording. And make it impossible to actually swing correctly.

    To play precisely and naturally "off the beat" doth require having a precise and natural "beat" to be off from.

    Anyone can string notes, though not all strings are equally interesting.

    The rhythm? Damn hard until ... it ain't. And fading in and out like I do, ain't there.

    Stumbling fingers still need love ...

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well Rubato? Hmmm rubato is a subtle and sophisticated art, and is not merely taking a break cos you can't remember how it goes like what I do.

    As a result when I do the solo guitar thing my aim is always to play in a pulse. I know my limits haha :-) But also because, I think playing in a pulse is an important first step.

    Also I get a bit bored of meandering boneless jazz guitar solo pieces. Proper rubato isn't boneless of course.
    Same here. Furthermore, I have an attitude toward rubato... It's just if someone doing loose playing more than a min, they lose me. I know it's supposed to invoke emotions, and to be pretty, and stop me in my tracks, but sorry, I'm addicted to the beat. It's like, stop the BS already and play the damn tune, so I can feel it in my bones, lol.

    That aforementioned Joe Pass album Virtuoso is another example how you shouldn't approach solo guitar IMO. That album was introduction of JP to me, and it turned me off from his music for a long time. Until later, when I discovered some brilliant stuff of his.

  14. #13

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    A cat who posts here from time to time, Mark Kleinhaut, is a guy who really understands how rubato works.

    Done well, it can be great...it still has a pulse...that's the important thing. It's definitely not just "play 4 bars of melody, take a fill, run out of ideas, play another 4 bars of melody."

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Beautiful.
    (: Chris and Sinatra/Riddle were my templates, I figure...

  16. #15

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    As a rule of thumb, I don't want to hear solo performers play with a looser sense of time than they would use when playing in a duo or trio. JP's "Virtuoso" didn't do much for me for that reason.

  17. #16

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    The first part's rubato (tripped up, but repaired it), 'saying' the lyrics in my head:

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Done well, it can be great...it still has a pulse...that's the important thing. It's definitely not just "play 4 bars of melody, take a fill, run out of ideas, play another 4 bars of melody."
    Right, it's not just stop and go, there's an internal rhythm and (more subtle) sense of forward motion, just looser.

    Which leads us to 'in-between' time feels: implied pulse (read: Bill Evans or Keith Jarrett), in-and-out playfulness (Wayne Shorter does it particularly well).

    Those are all alternatives to chug-chug-chug (and possible boredom-thwarters), and Dick Katz correctly said 'when a groove gets TOO deep it can become a rut'---but ought be used ONLY IMO when you've mastered the more traditional time-keeping. In order to get away from a thing one has to have something to get away from...

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    The first part's rubato (tripped up, but repaired it), 'saying' the lyrics in my head:
    Well done: Nice pacing and good, trebly tone. Good call: this tune is probably not done that way often.

    Why does that bass player look familiar?

  20. #19

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    I think of rubato as the deconstruction of a melody as I might play it at tempo.
    In or out of tempo, a melody needs a clear sense of shape and form, defining
    which notes and beats are the most important and those playing a supportive role.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    As a rule of thumb, I don't want to hear solo performers play with a looser sense of time than they would use when playing in a duo or trio. JP's "Virtuoso" didn't do much for me for that reason.
    Actually, you can probably get away with playing looser, the more people you're playing with and still have it work. When you're playing solo, you really have to consider that there's not a rhythm section and *be* the rhythm section much of the time. I think that much of what Joe is playing on that recording would make more sense if you heard the rhythm section in Joe's head. :-)

    The audience doesn't necessarily have the rhythm section playing in their head , and they probably don't "hear" as well as you, especially if you're Joe Pass....
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-29-2017 at 06:38 PM.

  22. #21

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    I'm just a beginner myself and can't really play anything, but have always been drawn to the standards that are played on the musician/vocalists own time. Like Sinatra does on many of his ballads. I don't like when tempo is stopped to go on a huge run, but love the subtle dragging out of a note here and there for max effect...

    Never knew there was actually a word for it, learned about rubato today, score!

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Sundeep
    I'm just a beginner myself and can't really play anything, but have always been drawn to the standards that are played on the musician/vocalists own time. Like Sinatra does on many of his ballads. I don't like when tempo is stopped to go on a huge run, but love the subtle dragging out of a note here and there for max effect...

    Never knew there was actually a word for it, learned about rubato today, score!
    See that's the thing about it though. That's probably not rubato. Jazz phrasing can sound sort of rubato, but the fact that it's a ensemble says probably something different. If it's a singer phrasing loosely with the rhythm section, that's something different then rubato. That's just phrasing.

    I mean, we wouldn't say that Erroll Garner left-hand plays "in time", while his right hand plays rubato.

  24. #23

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    I've found a new name for myself.....LIBERAL TIME KEEPER.....I've always played solo guitar and never in a group or band. I just play it like I feel it. One night, at a restaurant gig in Vail, Colorado, a customer was leaving the restaurant and said, hey, you missed a beat.....I said....it wasn't the only one. I don't like to count when I play and just play for the love of the music. Sorry about that Mr. Metronone......Dan

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by fasstrack
    Right, it's not just stop and go, there's an internal rhythm and (more subtle) sense of forward motion, just looser.

    Which leads us to 'in-between' time feels: implied pulse (read: Bill Evans or Keith Jarrett), in-and-out playfulness (Wayne Shorter does it particularly well).

    Those are all alternatives to chug-chug-chug (and possible boredom-thwarters), and Dick Katz correctly said 'when a groove gets TOO deep it can become a rut'---but ought be used ONLY IMO when you've mastered the more traditional time-keeping. In order to get away from a thing one has to have something to get away from...
    In any improv -- jazz, blues, or rock -- and any format (solo or group) -- the improvisor must have the groove internalized. Play with time after that, you're golden so long as you land on the One.

  26. #25

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    I'm really curious to know what people think about this performance. There is something very jagged and reflexive about Jeff Parker's playing, both in his ensemble and solo playing. I've taken a few lessons from him and I know it's an intentional element of his aesthetic. Knowing that there's a wide variance of styles and preferences in this forum, I'm curious to know what the more traditional players think of this approach. Does it turn anyone off? If so what about it does? Is anyone really into it like I am?