Solo playing, liberal time keeping

[fasstrack]

So you want rubato, eh?

This is the guy I was writing about, Chris Anderson. He SINGS on Detour Ahead and Love Locked Out.

I hope SOME of you will eventually purchase these CDs. For now, behold and enjoy:

detour ahead chris anderson - YouTube

[fasstrack]

I'm really curious to know what people think about this performance. There is something very jagged and reflexive about Jeff Parker's playing, both in his ensemble and solo playing. I've taken a few lessons from him and I know it's an intentional element of his aesthetic. Knowing that there's a wide variance of styles and preferences in this forum, I'm curious to know what the more traditional players think of this approach. Does it turn anyone off? If so what about it does? Is anyone really into it like I am?

I think he's great! I like everything: his entire package of spacing, sound, ideas, self-trust.

Monk ain't easy, and other guitar players have tried valiantly. This is the best I've heard. He obviously knows the terrain, then goes to his intuition.

I'm a fan. Thanks for turning me on...

[christianm77]

Jeff Parker is great! Thanks for the heads up!

[christianm77]

Actually this comes to mind. How would others describe Bernstein's rhythm here? It's not rubato. It's disrupted, coarse, scattered. I think his music is more familiar and respected on this forum, however, than the other things I posted. Interestingly, in the comments one person says it's his worst playing while another considers it to be his best.

With this clip I hear an influence of Derek Bailey almost. Now I'm not sure if PB is a fan of Bailey - in fact I can almost imagine he is not, but there's something about the physicality of the playing and the it's 'sonicness' for want of a real word as well as the use of clustered voicings etc that edges into that world while remaining very much in the camp of straight up jazz.

Bailey is always a player I found interesting and inspiring in short bursts, but obviously that sound has become something of a cliche in improvised music. I kind of have Bailey filed away with Django, Charlie Christian, Frisell, Kurt, Wes, BB King and so on as things I access according to the gig (the fact that I kind of do that stylistically is something I am not proud of, but hopefully it comes across more organic.)

Anyway here is Bailey playing some standards:

Hopefully you see what I mean, there is an overlap between Bailey's world and Bernstein/Parkers and not think me totally mad.

[omphalopsychos]

Hopefully you see what I mean, there is an overlap between Bailey's world and Bernstein/Parkers and not think me totally mad.

Absolutely. I know for a fact that Parker is inspired by Bailey, since we've talked about him during our lessons. It's heartening to see positive comments come in on the Jeff Parker video. Since I'm new to the forum, one of my concerns was that I'm among a demographic skewed toward restaurant-gig jazz (please don't take that as a pejorative term; it's not meant to be). I think a comparison of Bailey, Bernstein, and Parker points to why I like Jeff Parker's style so much.

1.) In Bailey's style, it's clear that he's playing 'free' improv. It's so clear that it is, as you said, full of vocabulary now considered cliche. There's almost nothing controversial about playing like Derek Bailey anymore. Either someone likes free jazz or they hate it, but at least people acknowledge it as a genre.

2.) Bernstein picks up a lot from the style, but it's very embedded in a form of playing that still conforms to fundamental expectations regarding harmony, rhythm, meter, &c. He plays with the expectations and incorporates rhythmic and harmonic dissonance, but the audience can hear that he's still 'doing things correctly'.

3.) Parker's clip very different. He's so close to playing free jazz but he isn't. He's simply playing a monk tune in his own personal language, which accomplishes the goal of free improvising without falling into the pitfall of obeying 'free jazz' cliches. It's also close enough to traditional jazz that it's controversial. It was enough to upset of of the listeners here (for which I apologize!).

[matt.guitarteacher]

It's also close enough to traditional jazz that it's controversial. It was enough to upset of of the listeners here (for which I apologize!).

I don't think "upset" is the right word , and again, you don't have to apologize. Completely serious about being "just a guy on the Internet".

Since I'm new to the forum, one of my concerns was that I'm among a demographic skewed toward restaurant-gig jazz (please don't take that as a pejorative term; it's not meant to be).

We have some of that demographic, but the truth is probably worse . We also have a fair amount of hobbyists who ASPIRE to be restaurant-gig jazzers as well. I'd put myself in that category.

We all have things to learn. Luckily, we also have a fair number of experienced players who are patient enough with us to teach us some of what it's all about.

[fasstrack]

With this clip I hear an influence of Derek Bailey almost. Now I'm not sure if PB is a fan of Bailey - in fact I can almost imagine he is not, but there's something about the physicality of the playing and the it's 'sonicness' for want of a real word as well as the use of clustered voicings etc that edges into that world while remaining very much in the camp of straight up jazz.

Bailey is always a player I found interesting and inspiring in short bursts, but obviously that sound has become something of a cliche in improvised music. I kind of have Bailey filed away with Django, Charlie Christian, Frisell, Kurt, Wes, BB King and so on as things I access according to the gig (the fact that I kind of do that stylistically is something I am not proud of, but hopefully it comes across more organic.)

Anyway here is Bailey playing some standards:

Hopefully you see what I mean, there is an overlap between Bailey's world and Bernstein/Parkers and not think me totally mad.

Never heard Derek Bailey before, been hearing his name for years. I like his naked and sparse approach to Laura. He takes his time, and seems to have a vision. I'll listen on...

[mr. beaumont]

Jeff Parker''s really got his own thing. Dig "the relatives.:

Jeff''s one of the few cats I "got in early" on, I was digging him 20 years ago when he was playing with Tortoise. And that actually makes me feel more old than cool

Bailey''s stuff can be challenging...I don't like all of it, but that Standards record is brilliant. Aida is another must hear.

[omphalopsychos]

Jeff Parker''s really got his own thing. Dig "the relatives.:

Jeff''s one of the few cats I "got in early" on, I was digging him 20 years ago when he was playing with Tortoise. And that actually makes me feel more old than cool

Given that Tortoise is still touring the world and is a staple of the millennial hipster scene, you can count yourself as pretty cool. I grew up Chicago so I was also spoiled by the great stuff that came out of there in the 90s.

[mr. beaumont]

Oh wait, you're a Chicago guy too? Cool.

[Hep To The Jive]

I take it I'm not among a crowd that would have gone to see an Ornette Coleman solo concert.

Oh, I'm very not representative of a 'crowd' here, so nothing to worry about. I was not upset by the performer either, I don't get upset on internet as a rule, let alone get upset by a piece of music, that's crazy!

Mostly was poking fun, I guess I can be counted as a 'restaurant gig' musician ( I do play restaurant gigs quite often), but I like to think more like Street Jazz is more like it. Too artsy stuff is not my cuppa tea.

But I was curious, whether this guy Jeff Parker always plays like that, and found out that he can play really good grooving type of jazz with a group, and that I loved a lot! Gotta go find that clip again, but the thread is about liberal timing, so maybe doesn't belong...

[KirkP]

I like rubato introductions if they are fluid and lead naturally into a tempo.

I dislike start and stop feel, especially if it goes beyond the introduction.

I have no problem with liberal phrasing (e.g., playing ahead or behind the beat) but in general a want it to be held together by a solid tempo.

These guys do it right: Ed Bickert, Don Thompson - Who Can I Turn To

[christianm77]

Oh, I'm very not representative of a 'crowd' here, so nothing to worry about. I was not upset by the performer either, I don't get upset on internet as a rule, let alone get upset by a piece of music, that's crazy!

Mostly was poking fun, I guess I can be counted as a 'restaurant gig' musician ( I do play restaurant gigs quite often), but I like to think more like Street Jazz is more like it. Too artsy stuff is not my cuppa tea.

But I was curious, whether this guy Jeff Parker always plays like that, and found out that he can play really good grooving type of jazz with a group, and that I loved a lot! Gotta go find that clip again, but the thread is about liberal timing, so maybe doesn't belong...

And Derek Bailey cut his teeth playing straight four in dance bands.

I hope anyone from Yorkshire won't be offended if I say there is something very Yorkshire about his utter rejection of every aspect of that music later in his career! I think DB along with Schoenberg is for me an icon of fabulous bloody mindedness, a quality I respect far more than talent (which both these men possessed in spades.)

Anyway, (not necessarily in direct response to you) I question the need with any 'modern' art to check the artists credentials. For example, I don't care if Wayne Krantz can play bop, but some people do. This stuff used to matter to me, but now I no longer care.

So Picasso could draw like an old master (or something) as a child. Who cares? That's like being able to play SCALES. That's like Phillip Glass or Luciano Berio studying 18th century Partimenti. It's not important of itself, although to follow the development of a favourite artist can be fascinating.

Life is short, I think we should enjoy the art we enjoy, we study what we feel we must - not what we should.

[NSJ]

PS

Jeff Parker (as well as Nicole Mitchell) moved to California. No longer part of the Chicago scene.

I was at the Daley Center for a court case and noticed that Ms. Mitchell was right in front of me. She was surprised that anyone knew who she was. In hindsight, she was taking care of some important legal matters before moving on to the land of the Sun.

While he was here, Jeff was teaching this kid (who went to music school at DePaul) named Aaron Schapiro, who is an amazing young player. A kid who's from like Highland Park and the North Shore who now spends a lot of his musical time on the South Side.


Someone You Should Know: Jazz Guitarist Aaron Shapiro << CBS Chicago

[fasstrack]

So you want rubato, eh?

This is the guy I was writing about, Chris Anderson. He SINGS on Detour Ahead and Love Locked Out.

I hope SOME of you will eventually purchase these CDs. For now, behold and enjoy:

detour ahead chris anderson - YouTube

Is NO ONE here going to even bother to listen to, let alone learn from, to this master? Or do viz wanna hang in the 'guitar ghetto' forever and a day?

I'm disappernted...

[ragman1]

So Picasso could draw like an old master (or something) as a child. Who cares? That's like being able to play SCALES

Being able to draw like an old master WHEN A CHILD has no more significance than being able to play scales?

You must be joking. That's the difference between a bright kid who can add, subtract and multiply and a prodigy who can do advanced physics.

And I'm quite sure many people care greatly, their parents, siblings, friends, extended family, teachers, professors, researchers, et al. Faced with that level of attainment it would be plain ignorant not to. In any case it would be impossible to ignore and a terrible crime to neglect them.

Just because you couldn't play like Peter Bernstein when you were three... oh, you could? I take it all back :-)

[christianm77]

Being able to draw like an old master WHEN A CHILD has no more significance than being able to play scales?

Well OK, I exaggerate :-)

Being able to draw like an old master is more comparable to being able to compose like a classical composer when still a child.

You must be joking. That's the difference between a bright kid who can add, subtract and multiply and a prodigy who can do advanced physics.

And I'm quite sure many people care greatly, their parents, siblings, friends, extended family, teachers, professors, researchers, et al. Faced with that level of attainment it would be plain ignorant not to. In any case it would be impossible to ignore and a terrible crime to neglect them.

I think I made my point rather poorly. Picasso had his chops together at an astoundingly young age. That's not nothing. But it's what he did later that made him more than a mere curiosity who became of less interest with every passing year. Of course. That's obvious to everyone.

Similarly if Mozart had spent his life writing charming little Gallant pieces and Opera Serioso to commission, we would probably have forgotten him. Again, obvious.

But what about, say, Magritte?

My point was not addressed to the manifestation of early talent more aimed more at avoiding the boring arguments over legitimacy of this or that art work based on whether the artist has craft, chops, draughtmanship etc. As aspiring artists we usually admire craft because it is what he want for ourselves. But why do we want more craft? To what end?

Sheer ability within a pre existing tradition is an important marker of a musician's potential, but what is important? Well, obviously, the work.

I was listening to Ornette and Don Cherry on Something Else! That record is practically a Blue Note record to my ears. Don Cherry was a bop trumpet virtuoso and on the early stuff, it shows. Ornette was coming from somewhere else completely.

I strongly suspect Don had a much better grasp of conventional changes jazz than Ornette, but Ornette was already more advanced as an artist. Why do I say this? Because Ornette sounds like Ornette. Unmistakeable.

Just because you couldn't play like Peter Bernstein when you were three... oh, you could? I take it all back :-)

I could play like Derek Bailey when I was three :-)

Sorry I couldn't resist. It is actually deceptively hard to play like Bailey, but the joke was crying out to be made.

DB himself would not have taken that as an insult AFAIK, which is another interesting area of discussion.

[ragman1]

As aspiring artists we usually admire craft because it is what he want for ourselves. But why do we want more craft? To what end?

Why do we start in the first place? Once you start you can't stand still, the very interest compels you. Real artists are always aspiring, that's the point.

david bailey, quite funny :-)

[christianm77]

Why do we start in the first place? Once you start you can't stand still, the very interest compels you. Real artists are always aspiring, that's the point.

david bailey, quite funny :-)

Derek Bailey right? :-)

DAVID Bailey plays a mean house of the rising sun

[NSJ]

I dig Cecil taylor though....

I mean there's a lot of thoroughly tedious guys out there playing right notes. Cecil never bores me, although short blasts are all I can take.

Indeed. I think it would be a better visceral experience heard live, in moment, than preserved for posterity on record, though.

[John A.]

Is NO ONE here going to even bother to listen to, let alone learn from, to this master? Or do viz wanna hang in the 'guitar ghetto' forever and a day?

I'm disappernted...

I listened. I hadn't actually heard of him before you started posting about him, so thanks for that. I liked the piano a lot (can definitely hear the influence on Herbie Hancock people write about). I didn't really dig his singing so much, but singing seems not to have been his main thing.

Speaking of under-appreciated blind piano players, did you ever check out Lance Hayward? He played a solo couple of nights a week for about 20 years at a bar called the Village Corner. There are a few things on youtube of him, but they're kind of tame and don't really capture the experience.

To your larger point, about the "guitar ghetto"... This is a jazz guitar forum. It's not exactly surprising that guitar is the focus of discussion, and it probably does attract at least some participants who focus too much on the instrument and not enough on music more broadly. But I wouldn't assume that everyone is so parochial.

John

[ragman1]

Derek Bailey right? :-)

I thought you meant you made a lot of noise banging things... I'm not confused

Dave Bailey (musician) - Wikipedia

[ragman1]

Eugene Chadbourne...

He's probably a very good musician. Unfortunately he's mad

I liked Ivor Cutler. He was a lovely man :-)

[christianm77]

Indeed. I think it would be a better visceral experience heard live, in moment, than preserved for posterity on record, though.

Eugene Chadbourne's performance reminds me of the Mullligan and O'Hare rendition of When A Child is Born.

Their version of Brimful of Asher from the album Tittybiscuits is also well worth a listen

[lawson-stone]

Surprised to find so many like minded guitarist that don't dig JP's Virtuoso records. They always seem to be held up as the grail of guitar playing and I find them unlistenable. Particularly the boom-chick-boom-chick bass chord fills he does. Bad tone, constant wanky runs, endless rubato. No thanks.

I had to laugh out loud at this. It reminds me of people's reactions reading the novels of Zane Grey or Louis L'Amour. They say, "Just the usual cliches of 'western' novels! Nothing really new or fresh!"

Until you realize that Zane Grey and Louis L'Amour invented the western novel, they invented those cliches. The later authors stood on their shoulders.

Joe Pass did, on every track, on every tune, what other guitarists could only sustain for a line or two. Joe re-invented the solo jazz guitar performance on a level that literally stunned people who heard it for the first time. He is the Zane Grey, the Louis L'Amour of the solo guitar. It's like someone listening to jazz guitarists and hearing Wes Montgomery and saying, "Octaves and block chords, muffled tone, too much slurring... unlistenable."

When you listen to some players, you are hearing the music being invented in a manner of speaking. Others did more, maybe did better. But when Virtuoso came out, jazz guitar players, and classical players and many others, nearly fainted from the excitement of what he was doing.

Also, that same session produced two full additional CDs worth of material that was only released later. Joe literally played tunes the recording studio engineers were suggesting. Played them off the top of his head.

Wanky... seriously, show some respect.