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So you want rubato, eh?
This is the guy I was writing about, Chris Anderson. He SINGS on Detour Ahead and Love Locked Out.
I hope SOME of you will eventually purchase these CDs. For now, behold and enjoy:
detour ahead chris anderson - YouTube
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04-02-2017 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Monk ain't easy, and other guitar players have tried valiantly. This is the best I've heard. He obviously knows the terrain, then goes to his intuition.
I'm a fan. Thanks for turning me on...
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Jeff Parker is great! Thanks for the heads up!
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Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Bailey is always a player I found interesting and inspiring in short bursts, but obviously that sound has become something of a cliche in improvised music. I kind of have Bailey filed away with Django, Charlie Christian, Frisell, Kurt, Wes, BB King and so on as things I access according to the gig (the fact that I kind of do that stylistically is something I am not proud of, but hopefully it comes across more organic.)
Anyway here is Bailey playing some standards:
Hopefully you see what I mean, there is an overlap between Bailey's world and Bernstein/Parkers and not think me totally mad.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
1.) In Bailey's style, it's clear that he's playing 'free' improv. It's so clear that it is, as you said, full of vocabulary now considered cliche. There's almost nothing controversial about playing like Derek Bailey anymore. Either someone likes free jazz or they hate it, but at least people acknowledge it as a genre.
2.) Bernstein picks up a lot from the style, but it's very embedded in a form of playing that still conforms to fundamental expectations regarding harmony, rhythm, meter, &c. He plays with the expectations and incorporates rhythmic and harmonic dissonance, but the audience can hear that he's still 'doing things correctly'.
3.) Parker's clip very different. He's so close to playing free jazz but he isn't. He's simply playing a monk tune in his own personal language, which accomplishes the goal of free improvising without falling into the pitfall of obeying 'free jazz' cliches. It's also close enough to traditional jazz that it's controversial. It was enough to upset of of the listeners here (for which I apologize!).
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Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
We all have things to learn. Luckily, we also have a fair number of experienced players who are patient enough with us to teach us some of what it's all about.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Jeff Parker''s really got his own thing. Dig "the relatives.:
Jeff''s one of the few cats I "got in early" on, I was digging him 20 years ago when he was playing with Tortoise. And that actually makes me feel more old than cool
Bailey''s stuff can be challenging...I don't like all of it, but that Standards record is brilliant. Aida is another must hear.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 04-02-2017 at 09:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Oh wait, you're a Chicago guy too? Cool.
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Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Oh, I'm very not representative of a 'crowd' here, so nothing to worry about. I was not upset by the performer either, I don't get upset on internet as a rule, let alone get upset by a piece of music, that's crazy!
Mostly was poking fun, I guess I can be counted as a 'restaurant gig' musician ( I do play restaurant gigs quite often), but I like to think more like Street Jazz is more like it. Too artsy stuff is not my cuppa tea.
But I was curious, whether this guy Jeff Parker always plays like that, and found out that he can play really good grooving type of jazz with a group, and that I loved a lot! Gotta go find that clip again, but the thread is about liberal timing, so maybe doesn't belong...
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I like rubato introductions if they are fluid and lead naturally into a tempo.
I dislike start and stop feel, especially if it goes beyond the introduction.
I have no problem with liberal phrasing (e.g., playing ahead or behind the beat) but in general a want it to be held together by a solid tempo.
These guys do it right: Ed Bickert, Don Thompson - Who Can I Turn To
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
I hope anyone from Yorkshire won't be offended if I say there is something very Yorkshire about his utter rejection of every aspect of that music later in his career! I think DB along with Schoenberg is for me an icon of fabulous bloody mindedness, a quality I respect far more than talent (which both these men possessed in spades.)
Anyway, (not necessarily in direct response to you) I question the need with any 'modern' art to check the artists credentials. For example, I don't care if Wayne Krantz can play bop, but some people do. This stuff used to matter to me, but now I no longer care.
So Picasso could draw like an old master (or something) as a child. Who cares? That's like being able to play SCALES. That's like Phillip Glass or Luciano Berio studying 18th century Partimenti. It's not important of itself, although to follow the development of a favourite artist can be fascinating.
Life is short, I think we should enjoy the art we enjoy, we study what we feel we must - not what we should.Last edited by christianm77; 04-03-2017 at 05:47 AM.
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PS
Jeff Parker (as well as Nicole Mitchell) moved to California. No longer part of the Chicago scene.
I was at the Daley Center for a court case and noticed that Ms. Mitchell was right in front of me. She was surprised that anyone knew who she was. In hindsight, she was taking care of some important legal matters before moving on to the land of the Sun.
While he was here, Jeff was teaching this kid (who went to music school at DePaul) named Aaron Schapiro, who is an amazing young player. A kid who's from like Highland Park and the North Shore who now spends a lot of his musical time on the South Side.
Someone You Should Know: Jazz Guitarist Aaron Shapiro << CBS Chicago
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Originally Posted by fasstrack
I'm disappernted...
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Originally Posted by christianm77
You must be joking. That's the difference between a bright kid who can add, subtract and multiply and a prodigy who can do advanced physics.
And I'm quite sure many people care greatly, their parents, siblings, friends, extended family, teachers, professors, researchers, et al. Faced with that level of attainment it would be plain ignorant not to. In any case it would be impossible to ignore and a terrible crime to neglect them.
Just because you couldn't play like Peter Bernstein when you were three... oh, you could? I take it all back :-)
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Being able to draw like an old master is more comparable to being able to compose like a classical composer when still a child.
You must be joking. That's the difference between a bright kid who can add, subtract and multiply and a prodigy who can do advanced physics.
And I'm quite sure many people care greatly, their parents, siblings, friends, extended family, teachers, professors, researchers, et al. Faced with that level of attainment it would be plain ignorant not to. In any case it would be impossible to ignore and a terrible crime to neglect them.
Similarly if Mozart had spent his life writing charming little Gallant pieces and Opera Serioso to commission, we would probably have forgotten him. Again, obvious.
But what about, say, Magritte?
My point was not addressed to the manifestation of early talent more aimed more at avoiding the boring arguments over legitimacy of this or that art work based on whether the artist has craft, chops, draughtmanship etc. As aspiring artists we usually admire craft because it is what he want for ourselves. But why do we want more craft? To what end?
Sheer ability within a pre existing tradition is an important marker of a musician's potential, but what is important? Well, obviously, the work.
I was listening to Ornette and Don Cherry on Something Else! That record is practically a Blue Note record to my ears. Don Cherry was a bop trumpet virtuoso and on the early stuff, it shows. Ornette was coming from somewhere else completely.
I strongly suspect Don had a much better grasp of conventional changes jazz than Ornette, but Ornette was already more advanced as an artist. Why do I say this? Because Ornette sounds like Ornette. Unmistakeable.
Just because you couldn't play like Peter Bernstein when you were three... oh, you could? I take it all back :-)
Sorry I couldn't resist. It is actually deceptively hard to play like Bailey, but the joke was crying out to be made.
DB himself would not have taken that as an insult AFAIK, which is another interesting area of discussion.Last edited by christianm77; 04-03-2017 at 08:42 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
david bailey, quite funny :-)
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Originally Posted by ragman1
DAVID Bailey plays a mean house of the rising sun
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by fasstrack
Speaking of under-appreciated blind piano players, did you ever check out Lance Hayward? He played a solo couple of nights a week for about 20 years at a bar called the Village Corner. There are a few things on youtube of him, but they're kind of tame and don't really capture the experience.
To your larger point, about the "guitar ghetto"... This is a jazz guitar forum. It's not exactly surprising that guitar is the focus of discussion, and it probably does attract at least some participants who focus too much on the instrument and not enough on music more broadly. But I wouldn't assume that everyone is so parochial.
John
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Dave Bailey (musician) - Wikipedia
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Eugene Chadbourne...
He's probably a very good musician. Unfortunately he's mad
I liked Ivor Cutler. He was a lovely man :-)
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Originally Posted by NSJ
Their version of Brimful of Asher from the album Tittybiscuits is also well worth a listenLast edited by christianm77; 04-03-2017 at 12:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by drbhrb
Until you realize that Zane Grey and Louis L'Amour invented the western novel, they invented those cliches. The later authors stood on their shoulders.
Joe Pass did, on every track, on every tune, what other guitarists could only sustain for a line or two. Joe re-invented the solo jazz guitar performance on a level that literally stunned people who heard it for the first time. He is the Zane Grey, the Louis L'Amour of the solo guitar. It's like someone listening to jazz guitarists and hearing Wes Montgomery and saying, "Octaves and block chords, muffled tone, too much slurring... unlistenable."
When you listen to some players, you are hearing the music being invented in a manner of speaking. Others did more, maybe did better. But when Virtuoso came out, jazz guitar players, and classical players and many others, nearly fainted from the excitement of what he was doing.
Also, that same session produced two full additional CDs worth of material that was only released later. Joe literally played tunes the recording studio engineers were suggesting. Played them off the top of his head.
Wanky... seriously, show some respect.
Is the Bud 6 Really That Good?
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