Days of Wine and Roses - seeking insight and criticism

**omphalopsychos** · 02-02-2017, 02:16 PM

I started working on Days of Wine and Roses recently. I'm still getting it under my fingers, but I'd like some input on the arrangement. I'm fairly new to the jazz thing.

Don't take it easy on me, though I'd prefer criticism on the forum more than on the youtube video itself.

**alltunes** · 02-03-2017, 12:01 PM

I'm a neophyte myself. Such a great tune and I think you have the melody nicely upfront. Tone is nice too. I'd say a great start..now you can tweak it for the rest of your life.

p.s. Bill Frisell might provide an idea or two for your arrangement..check out about 3:00 or so

**omphalopsychos** · 02-03-2017, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by alltunes

p.s. Bill Frisell might provide an idea or two for your arrangement..check out about 3:00 or so

Thanks for that video! Now those are some great ideas. I've been working on one of Frisell's Solo arrangements ("Embraceable You") lately, and I really appreciate his approach to chord melody, if it can be called that.

**Doublea A** · 02-04-2017, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by alltunes

I'm a neophyte myself. Such a great tune and I think you have the melody nicely upfront. Tone is nice too. I'd say a great start..now you can tweak it for the rest of your life.

p.s. Bill Frisell might provide an idea or two for your arrangement..check out about 3:00 or so

Great description of Bill Frisell's approach. Thanks for posting.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

**omphalopsychos** · 02-06-2017, 05:48 PM

Here's another take. This time trying to apply some of the concepts from Frisell, such as framing, inner voices responding to melody, etc. Thanks again for that great video, alltunes.

**alltunes** · 02-07-2017, 11:40 AM

You are welcome. I will be working on this next.

You adapted that Frisell stuff quite well. I think it flows a little smoother now. I suppose the next step would be to combine the two techniques. "Framing" mixed with some block chords. Great sound on the Eastman.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-07-2017, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by omphalopsychos

Here's another take. This time trying to apply some of the concepts from Frisell, such as framing, inner voices responding to melody, etc. Thanks again for that great video, alltunes.

Wow. That's great stuff. I'm really blown away by how much your simple shift in approach helps with phrasing and articulation as well. The melody-first thing is super important in phrasing chord melody in my opinion. Congrats.

**JakeAcci** · 02-07-2017, 02:05 PM

These have a cool vibe - if I had more time I'd like to sit down and talk about each voicing choice, the pros and cons of various options, etc, but...that would take a while. What I would encourage for now is with each voicing choice consider

1. the horizontal consequence - what is the movement of this voice? where did it go and where did it come from? don't let "it's a cool color" be an acceptable answer...that's my recommendation, have a reason, in the composition, for each note in the voicing similar to if you were composing for a string quartet (well, sextet...)

2. the vertical consequence - look at each note for each piece of harmony and ask, why is this note here, in this chord? again, don't let 'it's a cool color' to be acceptable - what role is the note serving in the voicing?

hope that helps...

**mr. beaumont** · 02-07-2017, 02:17 PM

Sounds good to me.

My advice would be, if you're going to play rubato or not in strict time, really establish that. The first one sounds more like you go in and out of time.

Secondly, accentuate those long tones in the melody. The days...of wine and RO-SES....hang on that "SES." It's a beautiful note.

Overall, I really enjoy where you're going with this, though.

**omphalopsychos** · 02-07-2017, 03:00 PM

Thanks everyone for taking the time to listen!

Mr B, I'll take your feedback to heart and work on getting the melody to sustain better. I do tend to get over-zealous at times. Regarding the timing, the first one was also really choppy playing unintentionally. Block chords are much tougher for me than moving a couple of voices at a time.

Jake, Thanks for your thoughts. I tried to be more conscious of the horizontal movement in the second recording than the first, but I can hear some rough spots.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-07-2017, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by omphalopsychos

Regarding the timing, the first one was also really choppy playing unintentionally. Block chords are much tougher for me than moving a couple of voices at a time.

You can approach block chords the same way though. Plant the melody finger first and then fill in as you transition. Watch people who play really well and you'll notice it. You almost can't "see it" though, because it looks like something more complicated than it may be, like contrapuntal moving voices. In the end, there's no fine line between where moving block chords become contrapuntal playing, especially when they aren't articulated as "blocks".

**rpjazzguitar** · 02-07-2017, 03:58 PM

[QUOTE=omphalopsychos;738189]I started working on this recently. I'm still getting it under my fingers, but I'd like some input on the arrangement. I'm fairly new to the jazz thing.

Don't take it easy on me, though I'd prefer criticism on the forum more than on the youtube video itself.

Nice job! A lot of cool voicings.

But, just to say something that might be useful, I'll offer this.

Guinga, the Brazilian composer/guitarist, looks for the absolutely perfect chord every time. I'm told that he will spend long periods of time trying to find one chord in a long arrangement. Because it has to be absolutely perfect.

So, in your arrangement, there were some voicings which had, say, a different quality than I expected from what went before. Those are artistic choices. If you're happy with them, that's all that matters. That said, if you reviewed the arrangement with a microscope would you say that every voicing was perfect for that melody? If not, see if you can find perfection.

**omphalopsychos** · 02-07-2017, 06:34 PM

Jake and rpguitar, would you mind pointing to a few examples if you have the time? I know there are some voicings I want to revisit, but there were also some places where what I wanted to say was at odds with the chord tones (including their diatonic extensions). I was hoping to hint that the harmony/melody was not purely function by playing a D natural over the Eb7 right at the outset. I am fairly comfortable with the concepts of jazz harmony, but I will admit that I tend to impose my own (probably weird) choices too, sometimes selecting intervals that contrast with the written harmony or recommended practice. Since I'm new to this, I'm more than willing to be schooled on the tastefulness of what I'm doing. It's one thing if it sounds cool to me, but if it only sounds cool to me, then I have to feel some guilt forcing it on unsuspecting youtube audiences.

**rpjazzguitar** · 02-07-2017, 07:09 PM

I can tell you the places where I thought the voicing could be more faithful to the way I hear the tune. But, I want to say, first, that these are artistic choices. If it sounds the way you want it to, my opinion shouldn't matter a bit.

If I were singing the tune, here are the places where the chord isn't want I wanted to hear...

I'll do it by the word in the lyric to locate the place:

smile
child
through
there
just
golden.

I don't have good enough ears to tell from a quick listen what chord you played or what it should have been -- I'd have to sit down the the guitar and work that out. But those are the spots. In one case, I think I was expecting a m6 type sound and there seemed to be a note missing.

**omphalopsychos** · 02-07-2017, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

I can tell you the places where I thought the voicing could be more faithful to the way I hear the tune. But, I want to say, first, that these are artistic choices. If it sounds the way you want it to, my opinion shouldn't matter a bit.

If I were singing the tune, here are the places where the chord isn't want I wanted to hear...

I'll do it by the word in the lyric to locate the place:

smile
child
through
there
just
golden.

I don't have good enough ears to tell from a quick listen what chord you played or what it should have been -- I'd have to sit down the the guitar and work that out. But those are the spots. In one case, I think I was expecting a m6 type sound and there seemed to be a note missing.

Thanks rpjazzguitar for taking the time to point these moments out. I'll take some time to go through these and see if I can improve the arrangement.

Does anyone have a preferred or recommended solo guitar arrangement of this piece? I picked Frisell's as my model for the second arrangement, but I'd like to expand further.

**JakeAcci** · 02-08-2017, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by omphalopsychos

Jake and rpguitar, would you mind pointing to a few examples if you have the time? I know there are some voicings I want to revisit, but there were also some places where what I wanted to say was at odds with the chord tones (including their diatonic extensions). I was hoping to hint that the harmony/melody was not purely function by playing a D natural over the Eb7 right at the outset. I am fairly comfortable with the concepts of jazz harmony, but I will admit that I tend to impose my own (probably weird) choices too, sometimes selecting intervals that contrast with the written harmony or recommended practice. Since I'm new to this, I'm more than willing to be schooled on the tastefulness of what I'm doing. It's one thing if it sounds cool to me, but if it only sounds cool to me, then I have to feel some guilt forcing it on unsuspecting youtube audiences.

I could nit pick on specific choices but I think it's more about intention. If JakeAcci on some jazz guitar forum online says "there should/shouldn't be a 9 there" or something I don't think that's necessarily a reason to change your sound. I'd recommend more so analyzing your own intention with each choice more so than the harmony, and maybe ask around here for different ways of playing a specific change.

Maybe over the weekend I could dig into some specifics. for what it’s worth, I have a relatively unconventional improvised CM arrangement of the tune on my YT:

**eh6794** · 02-08-2017, 05:13 PM

You have to master the metronome before you can do rubato.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-08-2017, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by eh6794

You have to master the metronome before you can do rubato.

Ugh, that sounds horrible. "Be able to keep time," absolutely. "Master" the un-swingingest thing imaginable? Yuck.

But I get your point.

**eh6794** · 02-08-2017, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Ugh, that sounds horrible. "Be able to keep time," absolutely. "Master" the un-swingingest thing imaginable? Yuck.

But I get your point.

I absolutely get your point too, but I think most of us forgot that most basic skill: keeping time. Having said that, the most swingiest song you ever hear, probably still has a steady metronome (not a literal metronome) behind it.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-08-2017, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by eh6794

I absolutely get your point too, but I think most of us forgot that most basic skill: keeping time. Having said that, the most swingiest song you ever hear, probably still has a steady metronome (not a literal metronome) behind it.

The human metronome, the heartbeat!

I totally get ya. Truthfully, I need a mix of in time and rub to to find solo guitar interesting. All rubato can be a snore, but so are the guys who work out cutesy arrangements and play them in strict time (but can rarely swing)

We have two cats who post here occasionally--mark kleinhaut and jake reichbart who represent how to do rubato and how to do "time" the right way, respectively.

**eh6794** · 02-08-2017, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

The human metronome, the heartbeat!

I totally get ya. Truthfully, I need a mix of in time and rub to to find solo guitar interesting. All rubato can be a snore, but so are the guys who work out cutesy arrangements and play them in strict time (but can rarely swing)

We have two cats who post here occasionally--mark kleinhaut and jake reichbart who represent how to do rubato and how to do "time" the right way, respectively.

I'll keep an eye out for those guys

**omphalopsychos** · 02-08-2017, 10:47 PM

Thanks all for your input. Since I can only claim to have been trying to learn jazz for maybe a year or so, all of this feedback is incredibly helpful. Still haven't had the time to go back and revisit the arrangement, but I have a lesson in about 15 minutes with my local teacher (John Schott) and we'll see what additional input he provides. Hopefully I'll have some interesting developments to share!

**Chris Whiteman** · 02-10-2017, 12:52 AM

I've always loved Wes' version. It's not solo guitar, but it is a chord melody.

The progression from your 1st version to the 2nd is a definite improvement in fluidity and musicality. I think continuing to work on your fluidity and chord transitions would be a good area for attention. Basically building your technique so you can execute easily and begin to give attention to other areas like time, phrasing and dynamics. Really good for the short time you've been playing.

**omphalopsychos** · 02-10-2017, 01:13 PM

Chris, thanks for taking the time to listen and give feedback. I find the technical demands of jazz chord melody very challenging, but I've been working on learning other arrangements and etudes to build that up. I agree that my personal hurdle in achieving a fluid "feel" may be overcome by improving my technique (in addition to also practicing in strict time even if I intend to play rubato). I'll take that Wes Montgomery chord melody as a study and hope that it helps with my fluidity.

By the way, I also noticed your performance of this piece on Youtube. I must say your playing is excellent. I'm sure I'll learn a lot just by transcribing portions of your recording.