Guitar Friendly Keys or Standard?

**henryrobinett** · 03-06-2016, 09:36 PM

Of course if you're talking about vocals you play in the key the vocalist is most comfortable singing in. Of course. I'm not talking about that. I'm referring to playing a jazz standard as a guitar solo or ensemble piece. Whatever the guitarist decides to do is totally fine. I never said anything contrary. But FOR ME I will most likely play it in the standard accepted key. I will not play it in a key easier for guitar it more accessible or "better suited" for guitar, which I don't even understand. Any key is accessible for guitar. You don't have to use open strings.

**targuit** · 03-06-2016, 09:38 PM

Henry, there may be 'common keys' for a tune like Misty, but I would disagree gently with the term "standard accepted" key.

**henryrobinett** · 03-06-2016, 09:46 PM

Well maybe that's because you're not a working jazz musician. There definitely are standard accepted keys for most standards.

**nick1994** · 03-06-2016, 09:58 PM

There definitely are common keys like with stella ive played it in Bb G and Eb, those are common keys for that tune.

**MarkInLA** · 03-06-2016, 10:00 PM

Lawson-stone. I lived for decades with the same frustration of demanding that solo guitar pieces have to be in the original key or Im cheating, taking the easy way out (" She was a day....tripper, one way ticket yeah "). Uh, were was I ?...Oh. After some 35-40ish years of this torture, keeping say " The Song Is You" in a flat key, I decided to give myself a break. With some experimenting I now have a great time playing TSIY in ......ready? .......A maj ! It's the pedal tone A under the the very first 4 beats in quick cut time (2/4). First two are AMaj7 , second two, Ab over A, and other aspects of this number. I can, and used to play "One" from "A Chorus Line" ("Ooh... ah, give me your attention") in original Eb. When I moved it down to D it became much easier; especially the very first 8 measures (First 4 are the instrumental intro). I also put "Let it Be" (There will be an answer let it be...) in D. Again, so much more easy especially if playing a sixteen bar solo, and having open D, A, and G under it. I play "Where or when" in Db, though I don't think the original key will be that. Life's too short to worry about being judged as to whether or not you're in the original key like I did for some 3 decades or more. Find keys were the tunes fit on this very complicated instrument. It ain't a piano. You could play them in a club and not one person would ever cite you for being a cheater.
Hey, over in classical guitar there is a common Bach number every student learns in D-, as is always written. But the original key, from a cello suite, is in C-. Guess why that is......!

**lawson-stone** · 03-06-2016, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by ronjazz

Lawson, why would you be disappointed in an arrangement that sounds good, that works for the player? After all, the "original" published key may not even be the key the composer intended. And I do take issue with your interpretation of changing the keys as "simplifying" anything; in fact, I often change the key in order to play a more involved, sonorous version. I know I had very little luck playing a convincing version of Send In The Clowns until I took it from Eb to E, and then it became one of my most requested pieces. How anybody else plays it is of no concern to me at the time I'm playing, and, if you call Misty, I'll ask for it to be done in C or F or A, or all of those. If everybody wants it in Eb, then that's what I'll do as well, but it sounds really good in almost any key. There's also the arranger's dramatic effect to be put at work, and oftentimes there's a range that really puts an idea across, so a key change may well improve the presentation.

So, I actually am more disappointed if a guitarist uses the "fakebook" key and it could sound better in another key. And, as a possibly irrelevant aside, classical guitarists rarely play transcriptions in the original key. I don't want to be trapped by the limitations of the guitar.

It's just a third-order not-entirely logical emotional reaction. I got such a liberation when I started learning to play outside the easy guitar keys and could ditch the capo, you know?

It's not about original keys. I'm not the guy you want to debate about "original" anything, being an ancient historian specializing in ancient document history and scribal practice (day job!)

Ido like the common coin of jazz in the fake books and jam session unwritten rules.

Anyhow, it's not an ideological belief, I just wondered if I was alone in having this reaction. Looks like I'm in a very small minority on this site, which is fine.

**nick1994** · 03-06-2016, 10:04 PM

Of course I was always told you should be able to play any tune in any key but really theres no reason to change keys unless for arrangement. If youre jamming a tune why change the key. Plus common key isnt always original key. Isnt georgia written in D? But Ive played it mostly in E

**henryrobinett** · 03-06-2016, 10:15 PM

Yes the common accepted key is often not the original key.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-06-2016, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Well maybe that's because you're not a working jazz musician. There definitely are standard accepted keys for most standards.

Absolutely.

For example, Green Dolphin Street. C and Eb. Gotta know both, and any other key is either "not common and will get frowns" or "the vocalists key, and they brought charts."

**henryrobinett** · 03-06-2016, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Absolutely.

For example, Green Dolphin Street. C and Eb. Gotta know both, and any other key is either "not common and will get frowns" or "the vocalists key, and they brought charts."

Exactly

**henryrobinett** · 03-06-2016, 10:59 PM

I guess the thing that I get stuck on is the "guitar player" thing. What stigma I've been laced with is a "guitar player". In jazz groups you have the standard approaches and accepted tunes, keys, styles, tempos, phrases, intros, outros. "Guitar players" fall into a specialized group that, I hate to say it, roll eyes and force glances. When guitar players play in guitar keys it throws us into a specialized category that's individualized and separate from the tenor, trumpet, pianist, trombone, alto, bass players. No problem, but I decided early on I wanted to avoid the rolly eyes. I wanted to play jazz on everyone else's terms and not force them to have to play with the "guitar player".

**mr. beaumont** · 03-06-2016, 11:05 PM

My goal has always been to fit in without hesitation, bitching or fear when I'm a sideman, and to do whatever the fuck I want when I'm in charge.

I need to get myself in charge more, I think.

**KirkP** · 03-07-2016, 12:32 AM

When I'm playing with horns, I play in horn-friendly keys. When I play with violins or flutes, I play in their keys. When I'm playing solo, it's whatever the hell key I want. :-)

**targuit** · 03-07-2016, 03:47 AM

Sounds to me, Henry, like the limitation is more on the part of the horn and wind players than the guitarist if the latter is able to play the tune in any key you call.

I get your point about "common keys" but I find that limiting not liberating. I personally have no problem changing keys to accommodate whoever else has the limitation - be it the singer, the wind players, or anyone else. It just is not a big deal.

Should it be? And if so, why? What is the 'accepted' key for I Close My Eyes? Saturday night I was playing along with Sarah Vaugh in Eb and Johnny Mathis in G. I like the key of F.

And please explain why the issue of whether one is a "professional musician" has anything to do whether a key is common or accepted.

**henryrobinett** · 03-07-2016, 07:35 AM

I think maybe you're being purposefully argumentative. I didn't say it had anything to do with being a professional musician. I said that perhaps it's because you're not a "working jazz musician." Different. I'm not saying that anyone CAN'T play in other keys. I'm saying Cherokee or Oleo in G is unusual and not common or accepted. Now if you're going to sing them of course. But if you're going to play them, unless you have a very specialized arrangement it's very unusual. And I also repeatedly said whatever you do is great. I was speaking for myself.

But if you were a working jazz musician, meaning if you regularly get calls to do gigs where people just called tunes, you would expect to play those tunes in accepted keys. You would also ask key right before downbeat.

It's great to play tunes in other keys. Keeps you on your toes. But Some Day My Prince is done in Bb, not E or A and it would be unusual. Not that it couldn't be. FOR MYSELF I decided I would learn songs in the keys they're most often performed by working jazz musicians because I wanted to be like them. I wanted to be a working jazz musician. But that's me not you. You do what you want.

**targuit** · 03-07-2016, 09:30 AM

Sorry, I took 'working jazz musician' for "professional", though I'm wondering if that is a 'distinction without a difference'.

So what is the common key for I Close My Eyes? Or is that song not played much these days?

**dcharles** · 03-08-2016, 04:30 PM

Have to agree with Henry and Lawson myself. I've gotten to the point in my own playing where I will learn a tune in depth in its standard key or keys and that's it.
My playing style nowadays means that what I do solo I would also do in a group (30s style chord melody improvisation). I also sing, so I don't worry anymore about playing with singers and changing keys all the time. I can transpose of course, but I have let go of the sideman mentality and have been much happier since. I'm learning tunes deeply now, not skating across them in 12 keys trying to make them sound passable.

**John A.** · 03-08-2016, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Neither did I and I'm the OP. I was thinking in terms of the standard key, the key found in most of the most widely used fake books. If you call "Misty" almost every experienced musician will think Eb. If you call "All the Things You Are" they're going to think Ab. So if a guitarist works up a fancy arrange of these in D or G, respectively, I'm just saying I'm disappointed. I wondered if anyone else felt the same way.

I said nothing about "original" keys and was not talking at all about vocals. I was talking about solo guitar and whether anyone else (other than me) is disappointed when a guitarist does a solo performance of a tune in a guitar-friendly key rather than the most common one found in the fake books.

Obviously, respondents to the thread can take the conversation anywhere they want, that's fine with me, as long as folks keep straight to whom they are actually addressing their comments.

Henry I think you're about the only person who seems to agree with me on this.

I'm trying to fathom the idea of being "disappointed" in the key a performer chooses, and not succeeding. If I even notice (because I'm trying to transcribe/figure it out with an instrument in hand; I don't have perfect pitch), my response would be "oh, he's doing it in [key of choice], lemme figure that out." But disappointment? No grok.

As a practical matter, it's good to know a tune in the most commonly played key so you can play it with other people. As a practical matter, it's good to know it in a bunch of other keys in case a vocalist calls it at a jam, and they always call it in something other than what you learned it in. Every single time, every damn singer. The all do that, the bastids. As an aesthetic matter, do it in whatever key pleases you solo. If it's a group and you're the leader, make 'em do it in that key cause you can. If they're horn players, make sure it's a sharp key, cause they had it comin' to 'em, the bastids.

John

**lawson-stone** · 03-08-2016, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

I'm trying to fathom the idea of being "disappointed" in the key a performer chooses, and not succeeding. If I even notice (because I'm trying to transcribe/figure it out with an instrument in hand; I don't have perfect pitch), my response would be "oh, he's doing it in [key of choice], lemme figure that out." But disappointment? No grok.

As a practical matter, it's good to know a tune in the most commonly played key so you can play it with other people. As a practical matter, it's good to know it in a bunch of other keys in case a vocalist calls it at a jam, and they always call it in something other than what you learned it in. Every single time, every damn singer. The all do that, the bastids. As an aesthetic matter, do it in whatever key pleases you solo. If it's a group and you're the leader, make 'em do it in that key cause you can. If they're horn players, make sure it's a sharp key, cause they had it comin' to 'em, the bastids.

John

Okay you have trouble understanding my disappointment; I have trouble understanding your hostility toward horn players. "the bastids" ... really? I don't see other musicians that way. And "Make 'em do it that way... because you can" seems to me to fall into the "Buddy Rich" school of human relationships.

Do you really treat people that way?

**MarkInLA** · 03-08-2016, 08:17 PM

LOOK !: If you are a side musician in an orchestra or 5 piece group, much the time there will be charts. I've seen leaders who have a book of some 500 charts. So they say "Get up 12, 109, 68, 69, 403" (for this set). Ok, Leader called you because he knows you read..So, if 2 of the numbers (that's where calling tunes 'numbers' comes from)..are in keys you wouldn't expect, you still keep quiet and wait for the downbeat. No? In this setting unless it was set up in advance for say, a wedding, you're 97% a rhythm guitar (with open bars for say, 2-4 bar solos). So here comes Ipanema in G ! What ? But you can read any progression and comping style. So you do it and wait for your cheque in the mail...
NOW, you are at home and so play your favorite things in keys more fit for guitar solo playing..I used to be hard headed about playing only in the original key at home. But working up solo pieces is another matter, on guitar. "Let it Be", yes, is in C by what's his name. Though doable in C, D is the key I play it in for a one musician gig. No one in the audience will (unless they too are musicians [though they too would enjoy it]) is going to mind.
Several posts in the thread conclude that you do what you want, what fits on the solo guitar. I am in their camp. Who on earth cares in the end ? And you have the easiest keys you could find for, Bass notes, pedal point, drone, and/or vocal range key for you or another singer...Dat's it man..

Here's one for ya !!: On every gig I was ever on (bassist then), "The Girl From Ipanema" was in F. I bet that's the same for you..Well, guess what, you haven't been in the original key from the get go. It's in Db when you're hearing the Jobim, Gilberto, and Getz version..The originators...(bridge then being D)..So you see, it's a mind set. Publishers put sheet music in easier keys for the folks at home singin' around dat old, family piana..Then Ipanema spread out into the professional music world as being in F... OK, so I ask you hard heads now, what do you plan to do ?

PS. Check out "Green Dolphin Street" in...........................A !! Talk about pedal tones....

**pingu** · 03-08-2016, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Absolutely.

For example, Green Dolphin Street. C and Eb. Gotta know both, and any other key is either "not common and will get frowns" or "the vocalists key, and they brought charts."

right thats it I'm learning gds in Eb
it gonna be weird cos when its in C it goes
to Eb

**lawson-stone** · 03-08-2016, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by MarkInLA

LOOK !: If you are a side musician in an orchestra or 5 piece group, much the time there will be charts. I've seen leaders who have a book of some 500 charts. So they say "Get up 12, 109, 68, 69, 403" (for this set). Ok, Leader called you because he knows you read..So, if 2 of the numbers (that's where calling tunes 'numbers' comes from)..are in keys you wouldn't expect, you still keep quiet and wait for the downbeat. No? In this setting unless it was set up in advance for say, a wedding, you're 97% a rhythm guitar (with open bars for say, 2-4 bar solos). So here comes Ipanema in G ! What ? But you can read any progression and comping style. So you do it and wait for your cheque in the mail...
NOW, you are at home and so play your favorite things in keys more fit for guitar solo playing..I used to be hard headed about playing only in the original key at home. But working up solo pieces is another matter, on guitar. "Let it Be", yes, is in C by what's his name. Though doable in C, D is the key I play it in for a one musician gig. No one in the audience will (unless they too are musicians [though they too would enjoy it]) is going to mind.
Several posts in the thread conclude that you do what you want, what fits on the solo guitar. I am in their camp. Who on earth cares in the end ? And you have the easiest keys you could find for, Bass notes, pedal point, drone, and/or vocal range key for you or another singer...Dat's it man..

Here's one for ya !!: On every gig I was ever on (bassist then), "The Girl From Ipanema" was in F. I bet that's the same for you..Well, guess what, you haven't been in the original key from the get go. It's in Db when you're hearing the Jobim, Gilberto, and Getz version..The originators...(bridge then being D)..So you see, it's a mind set. Publishers put sheet music in easier keys for the folks at home singin' around dat old, family piana..Then Ipanema spread out into the professional music world as being in F... OK, so I ask you hard heads now, what do you plan to do ?

PS. Check out "Green Dolphin Street" in...........................A !! Talk about pedal tones....

All true-my question wasn't about "original" keys, but about typical or generally used keys. You're totally right about professionalism.

**targuit** · 03-09-2016, 02:51 AM

A simple example. I'm a great fan of Jimmy Van Heusen (Chester Babcock). I play several of his songs including Here's That Rainy Day. I don't know what the original key was but Chester's close buddy, Frank Sinatra, sang the tune in D, if I recall. Yet often one sees sheet music in the key of G. And yet, for solo guitar, I like the key of E, which is also the key choice in a band setting of another guy by the name of Wes Montgomery.

So what is the "preferred or common" key? I suppose the key of G. Yet, Frank, Wes, and I are outliers.

Why do I chose the key of E as my solo guitar preference? One reason is my tenor vocal range. A second reason is that the phrasing of the first several measures is easier to execute smoothly in the key of E in terms of articulating the melody and harmony. Doesn't mean I cannot play it in G or D. A preference. Not a restriction.

I used to feel some 'guilt' about transposing into a guitar friendly key but it is choice rather than an imperative often dictated by the particular melody in the harmonic context. And playing solo has different requisites than playing in the context of a band.

Last night I was listening and playing along to several Nat King Cole versions of standards like Stardust and Too Young. The latter song he sang and played in the key of Ab. Yet for solo guitar and for my voice it is just a tad easier in A. A whole half step difference. Is that a problem to worry about?

Maybe Nat did not know preferred keys, though some pianists really like playing in the key of Ab.

Another example is 'Round Midnight which is originally in the key of Eb. Yet Joe Pass played in D, while John Scofield plays it in E. Outliers again. And I can't even make up my own mind about what key in which I prefer to play Body and Soul.

**MarkRhodes** · 03-09-2016, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by KIRKP

I don't care what key a soloist plays in, as long as they have an interesting interpretation of the tune. Oh, and make sure the next tune is in a different key.

I think this latter point is especially important. Joe Pass talked about it in one of his videos: don't play too many tunes in a row in the same key, especially in a sharp key such as E or A. He said it would put people to sleep.

**John A.** · 03-09-2016, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Okay you have trouble understanding my disappointment; I have trouble understanding your hostility toward horn players. "the bastids" ... really? I don't see other musicians that way. And "Make 'em do it that way... because you can" seems to me to fall into the "Buddy Rich" school of human relationships.

Do you really treat people that way?

I was kidding. I'm only spiteful online, never in person. But the confusion about your being disappointed in someone else's choice of key is genuine.

John