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What's the "accepted" key- the key in the Real Book? Which was frequently different than the key the composer of the song used (changed for the convenience of horn players or the range of a vocalist or just the whim of the leader of the recording on which the lead sheet was based)...
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02-27-2016 06:04 PM
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VERY often the Real Book didn't have the accepted key. That's what I'm saying. NOT the RB! You find out by playing what the accepted keys are.
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Yeah, go on youtube, listen to 20 non-vocal versions.
Btw, at a gypsy jazz jam, Em is the go to for "Leaves."
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Whatever: Triste is in A. Not Bb. Just sayin' ;-)
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You're missing my point. I'm not talking original keys.
Originally Posted by christianm77
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usually singers decide the key, who cares what the instrumentalists want, you should be able to play any tune in any key
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True, if you play with singers. Originally Posted by nick1994
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I don't think you point was even on my radar. I was out on my trip.... Far out somewhere.... Originally Posted by henryrobinett
It's good to be able to play things in different keys. And to know what the original keys are. For a lot of standards I learn them off vocal records, so I don't even know what the keys are meant to be sometimes....
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Of course. I play things in different keys ALL THE TIME. I don't think that's the essence of the tread. Also playing tricky heads in different keys in the spot is tricky. AND although I do play with singers from time to time, the last time I did a gig with a singer who didn't have their charts was probably in the 70s.
Last edited by henryrobinett; 03-06-2016 at 09:18 AM.
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Actually, I don't have any special issue transposing to whatever key a singer or band want, assuming I am familiar with the tune. But if there is a vocalist, you gotta get close to what they want, no?
Funny, Eroll Garnner seemed to play his own tune Misty in the key of C most of the time. But many tenor singers go Eb or D. No big whoop.
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Of course you gotta do what they do. But as I said they always bring their own charts. Makes my job easier and theirs.
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Here's a funny anecdote:
In 1995 I was just beginning to study Chord Melody with a very good teacher.
One night we started a new chart. It was "These Foolish Things" (Remind Me of You). It was only the third or fourth solo we worked on and I was still struggling to assimilate the new and strangely foreign chord shapes that comprise "extended and altered" chords. I asked my teacher, "What key is it in?" He replied "E flat". I blurted out "E FLAT?!!!? My teacher responded, "Spoken like a true guitar player".
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Not easier with some of the charts that singers bring. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Some of them you think 'where did you get that?' Probably - shoved down the back of a radiator for three years after being put through the wash. And then crossed out with illegible pencil corrections to transpose it (mostly) from the key of C to A#.
Depends on the singer it must be said. :-)
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If a guy is playing solo guitar, I don't see what the problem is to create an arrangement that shines for the guitar.... that's what any other solo player would do. The key word is solo....alone, nobody else. A pianist playing solo will put a tune in any key that will let them exploit the tune. Serve the music. Anyone ever hear of that?
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There are no original keys. Every tune sounds fine in every key. Just because the writer put it in a key means little, except that the writers of standards mostly had in mind a particular vocal range, since many standards came from Broadway shows, where a tune had a "character" to sing it. Jazz composers generally write for their instrument and where it sounds best.
The guitar has a real disadvantage in the low range, especially as a solo instrument: Db, D and Eb have no "real" bass note for the tonic. This notion of key purity is very limiting; most good players can negotiate common tunes in several keys, and really good players welcome a challenge. Resetting the keys to fit the voice or the instrument is common and accepted practice. In fact, Errol Garner often played tunes in different keys depending on the piano and the acoustics of the room as well as his mood. Luis Bonfa wrote Manha de Carnaval in Am for the show, but recorded it in Gm to fit his vocal range. Ipanema was originally in D, but everybody plays it in F. I played a week with George Coleman, he often played the same tune in different keys from show to show.
As far as having two identities, why not? Your solo identity should be different from your ensemble identity, they are different worlds. I often state the tune ad lib solo before the group comes in at tempo, using a different key can create a nice lift into the chosen key for the group. For instance, I like Misty in C (Johnny Smith's key of choice for Moonlight In Vermont, originally in Eb), and end my solo version with C on top of an Fm7-Bb9 to take the tune into Eb.
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As a composer I write in whatever key I hear it in. For some reason than means a lot of tunes in Db, Gb, B. I don't know why, but I like to preserve the key I heard it in my head. And not every key is the same.
Certainly if you want to play in a certain key to take advantage of guitaristic things, cool. That's awesomely great. FOR MYSELF I don't. I don't simplify for guitar. I like to play in keys the the will most likely be called in. I'm not saying anyone else is wrong for doing it another way.
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For reasons I don't entirely understand, I agree with this conviction. I want to be able to do what I do on the guitar whether alone or in lan ensemble. I don't have enough talent to fill ONE identity, much less two! Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Some of us sing as well and then key choice and flexibility become necessary. I find this insistance on "original or intended keys" short sighted and strident.
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I'm sorry. I guess I'm not following the thread too closely. I certainly never said that. Originally Posted by mwcarr
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Neither did I and I'm the OP. I was thinking in terms of the standard key, the key found in most of the most widely used fake books. If you call "Misty" almost every experienced musician will think Eb. If you call "All the Things You Are" they're going to think Ab. So if a guitarist works up a fancy arrange of these in D or G, respectively, I'm just saying I'm disappointed. I wondered if anyone else felt the same way. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
I said nothing about "original" keys and was not talking at all about vocals. I was talking about solo guitar and whether anyone else (other than me) is disappointed when a guitarist does a solo performance of a tune in a guitar-friendly key rather than the most common one found in the fake books.
Obviously, respondents to the thread can take the conversation anywhere they want, that's fine with me, as long as folks keep straight to whom they are actually addressing their comments.
Henry I think you're about the only person who seems to agree with me on this.
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That is a completely incorrect claim ! If nothing else it is at least an E, A ,D ,G even B instrument. Lower strings basses higher strings upper parts. But the flat and sharp keys are just as good, but just don't always come with a usable low bass note. There are a myriad of classical guitar and jazz guitar compositions by a plethora of composers, in Bb, Eb, F, D, E.. G is not how the instrument is designed. It's your particular mind which is designed to think this way. I in 55 years of playing and reading guitar historical material I have never ever heard the claim you make.. Originally Posted by christianm77
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There are many considerations such as vocal range or playability of the song that need consideration. Last night I was looking at a great song that has wonderful potential as a solo guitar tune - I Close My Eyes. It is the type of tune that is more often sung by women, but many male singers have done versions including Johnny Mathis and Johnny Desmond.
Mathis recorded his version in the key of G which works great for his operatically trained high tenor voice and for solo guitar. I often like to lower Mathis' key by a minor third for my vocal range comfort. The key of E that I tried initially worked excellently for vocal and guitar, but the key of F even better.
My point is that I don't believe in the 'standard key' approach because that immediately goes out the door if it is a vocal. And besides, if you are a competent musician, transposing should not be a great obstacle in my opinion.Last edited by targuit; 03-06-2016 at 09:13 PM.
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I don't care what key a soloist plays in, as long as they have an interesting interpretation of the tune. Oh, and make sure the next tune is in a different key.
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Mark - I understand your point regarding Christian's observation, but to be fair, there is a certain nice symmetry in the key of G. You have the minor 6th Em available in first position and at the twelfth fret you have the nice harmonics. Of course, one could say the same thing about the key of C.
Open keys are not always the preferred key to me. What is important is the playability of the song. Especially if you are talking chord melody style playing. (Btw, how come you never hear about 'chord melody piano"?)
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Lawson, why would you be disappointed in an arrangement that sounds good, that works for the player? After all, the "original" published key may not even be the key the composer intended. And I do take issue with your interpretation of changing the keys as "simplifying" anything; in fact, I often change the key in order to play a more involved, sonorous version. I know I had very little luck playing a convincing version of Send In The Clowns until I took it from Eb to E, and then it became one of my most requested pieces. How anybody else plays it is of no concern to me at the time I'm playing, and, if you call Misty, I'll ask for it to be done in C or F or A, or all of those. If everybody wants it in Eb, then that's what I'll do as well, but it sounds really good in almost any key. There's also the arranger's dramatic effect to be put at work, and oftentimes there's a range that really puts an idea across, so a key change may well improve the presentation.
So, I actually am more disappointed if a guitarist uses the "fakebook" key and it could sound better in another key. And, as a possibly irrelevant aside, classical guitarists rarely play transcriptions in the original key. I don't want to be trapped by the limitations of the guitar.
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