unforgettable 1st position

[jazzdan]

Anyone know of an arrangement of UNFORGETTABLE....key of g....in the first position? Filling those 8 beat holes in measures 3-4, 7-8, 19-20 23-24 is my problem. I play on a classical guitar.....thanks....Dan

[lawson-stone]

Can you not just play some fills in those space? Create some movement in your harmonic register towards the next phrase? If there's a version you like, steal a few licks from it.

[lawson-stone]

Would you be open to explaining why it has to be in the 1st position? This tune employs some subs and other features that tend not to sound exactly right down low. It can be done but I'm not liking the results as I'm trying it out. Can you shed some light on why the 1st position is the requirement?

[jazzdan]

.I love Nephtali Santiago's version on YouTube but I can't figure out exactly what he is doing. I have always played from sheet music and don't have a great ear.....thanks. In the third measure the chart calls for a F sharp with a g in the bass but that sounds awful. You suggested b flat diminished 7th but that chord isn't even in my chord book....thanks

[jazzdan]

Listen to Nephtali Santiago do it in the first position and you will see why. It sounds fantastic on classical guitar and I'm good enough to play it if I had the music. For instance, I play Misty in the first position and it sounds good. I would rather play something less difficult and play it well than struggle with a difficult arrangement

[docbop]

As it says it's improvised and that what you need to do because there is not sheet music.

[jazzdan]

Easy for you to say but not so easy for me to do. I've always played by reading arrangements and at 67 it is a little late to try and learn improvisation...thanks....Dan

[docbop]

Easy for you to say but not so easy for me to do. I've always played by reading arrangements and at 67 it is a little late to try and learn improvisation...thanks....Dan

If you can sing you can improvise. Sing what you would want in those measures or what you think he would play, then record your singing and transcribe it. Let your own voice teach you to improvise.

[lawson-stone]

Easy for you to say but not so easy for me to do. I've always played by reading arrangements and at 67 it is a little late to try and learn improvisation...thanks....Dan

I totally get what you're saying. I do think though that it's possible to find a middle ground. Watching the videos you linked, I saw a tendency to improvise. Once you know, say, that in measure 3-4 you have a held F# note, and the lead sheet tells you the original chord was a Bbo7 and a common substitution is C#m7/F#7, then you know you can play something in that two measure, or roughly 6 beat space (assuming you hold that melody note a moment).

What you can play should nicely bridge to the next line, which starts just a half-step higher (G), and it needs to fit the chord pattern (whichever one you decide to use).

At this point, you have options.

One is to simply pick a scale that fits the chord progression and create a line that links the F# to the G.

Or you might think of other songs and arrangements you know. That C#m7/F#7 is simply a ii-V progression, arrangements of jazz tunes are loaded with these: Dm7/G7; Am7/D7, etc.

If, from some other arrangement you've learned, you can find a progression, say that uses Dm7/G7, you can drop that a half-step and put it in "Unforgettable" measure 3-4. You might have to adapt it to the start note of F# and goal note of G in m. 5, but in jazz that's not too hard to do.

or if you have a book of chord phrases based on common progressions, you could find any ii/V7 with no open strings, and move it to the position appropriate to the phrase in mm. 3-4.

Or you could go with the Bbo7 and find an appropriate diminished-based phrase from some other arrangement and transport it here, again moving it to the right chordal framework and adapting the beginning and end to this point in the tune.

At that point, you've learned the most important thing in improvising (IMO) which is how to take what you learn in one context and use it creatively in another. You have started creating a "vocabulary" or collection of phrases you can use.

Does this make sense? I don't know what level of playing you're at, and what system of harmony you know, and I don't want to "talk down" to you, nor go over your head if you're a beginner. If I've totally missed the mark, I'm sorry; I really empathize with your desire to find something to play. I started out learning fixed arrangements too, and still play some of them. But all the while, I was noting phrases and passages that I might move to another tune.

Hope it helps. This is a great forum to get advice and counsel. If I haven't helped you, I'm sure someone else here can!

[jazzdan]

#You are kind to try and help and I greatly appreciate your effort. I tried the c# m7 but there is no f# in the chord. Nephtali seems to use a Bb note with the f# which sounds ok but after that I am not sure what he does or how to fill the hole.....thanks again for your time and effort....Dan

[jazzdan]

After he pinches the Bb and the f# he grabs something and then leaves his index finger on the Bb, puts his 2nd finger on the e and his 3rd finger on the c# and 4th finger on the g.....pinches the g c# and g.....then f# c# an g.....then lifts his 2nd finger and places it on the f and then lifts the 2nd finger off of the f to sound the e.

Can you figure out what he grabs by ear?.....thanks.....Dan

[lawson-stone]

#You are kind to try and help and I greatly appreciate your effort. I tried the c# m7 but there is no f# in the chord. Nephtali seems to use a Bb note with the f# which sounds ok but after that I am not sure what he does or how to fill the hole.....thanks again for your time and effort....Dan

No worries about the lacking F#. Jazz is loaded with extensions to chords. Technically, a C#m7 with an F# added would be a C#m11. And the F# appears of course in the chord the C#m7 moves to. Such ii/V phrases are basically a single "idea" musically.

C#m7 is C# E G# B and the Bbdim7 is Bb E G C#
But on jazz charts often they do not over-define the chord. Plus, jazz lines often move chromatically, in half-steps. Another famous example is the opening of "Stella by Starlight." The first melody notes are Bb to A, under Em7b5. But there is no "A" in that chord, so really for chordal melodic analysis, you'd be playing Em11. They don't write that full chord label because once the melody is played through the first time, the repeated choruses will feature melodic improvisation and the added tones might not be relevant, but the basic chord quality is important.

So from your F#, just move chromatically up or down to the next chord tone and play an arpeggiated line headed to nailing the G in measure 5 with the Cmaj7 chord.

Still, if you want to work with the Bb diminished idea for those two measures, there are many beautiful lines you can play to move toward the second statement in Measure 5. Just note that the transition to the second line is merely a half-step, from F# to G, so your line will in some way want to be circular, moving out from the F# but making a nice approach to the G. Some kind of enclosure of that G, over, under, on it, would sound nice.

More importantly, you're beginning to analyze the video for yourself and notice what he's actually playing. That's the most important thing of all, paying attention intelligently to what good players are doing. From there, if you can extract a principle or idea that can be applied in other musical settings, you're off and running.

Can't wait to hear your presentation of the song!

[jazzdan]

Thanks for taking the time to work that out. It was fun watching the process. You jazz guys seem to have an infinite store of chords memorized at your disposal....very cool!.....Dan

[MarkInLA]

Very nice work ! I too do these things on a classical. Lately I'm over on an archtop dealing with its idiosyncrasies. I know not why the OP and a few others are trying to deal with the difficult harmonic language of this one. It's one smart composition. In my view they're digging too deep compared to their present level. ....Mark

[lawson-stone]

... I know not why the OP and a few others are trying to deal with the difficult harmonic language of this one. It's one smart composition. In my view they're digging too deep compared to their present level. ....Mark

Not a very nice thing to say about people just trying to help a guy out!

[MarkInLA]

Not a very nice thing to say about people just trying to help a guy out!

I don't savvy. I didn't mean you. I meant this number is too complex for anyone who doesn't have enough musical understanding under their belt. It's a complex piece with not only the chordal structure but the slippery keys it goes in and out of. And if jazz, all the secondary Doms and such it needs. I was never saying you or anyone should not play and not continue learning. I just mean this particular choice is very very complicated from the get go. if one is not intermediate or advanced on guitar this is not a good choice to grapple with at this stage..."Gina", as sung by Johnny Mathis, would be a good choice as it utilizes a common musical structure, easier to understand, and the melodic range is not wide. Dat's all....

[jazzdan]

Thanks for your comment. I came here hoping someone had worked out the song in the 1st position like Nephtali Santiago performs on YouTube. I didn't find what I was looking for but I did find some very knowledgeable and generous with their time fellows willing to help me as I struggled to arrange the song myself in a way that I could play it. My arrangement is simple but sometimes I prefer simple over the kitchen sink. Of course, I am no plumber and couldn't fix a kitchen sink if I had to......Dan

[andyb]

Hi Dan

I have been following this thread and also play some classical, I also like to have a written arrangement to learn from. If you get to a point where you have the tune written out, would you be able to post it up to share?

Andy

[destinytot]

I don't savvy. I didn't mean you. I meant this number is too complex for anyone who doesn't have enough musical understanding under their belt. It's a complex piece with not only the chordal structure but the slippery keys it goes in and out of. And if jazz, all the secondary Doms and such it needs. I was never saying you or anyone should not play and not continue learning. I just mean this particular choice is very very complicated from the get go. if one is not intermediate or advanced on guitar this is not a good choice to grapple with at this stage..."Gina", as sung by Johnny Mathis, would be a good choice as it utilizes a common musical structure, easier to understand, and the melodic range is not wide. Dat's all....

I think you're right - in fact I 'know' so - and I think you've been kind about it.

[destinytot]

Thanks for your comment. I came here hoping someone had worked out the song in the 1st position like Nephtali Santiago performs on YouTube. I didn't find what I was looking for but I did find some very knowledgeable and generous with their time fellows willing to help me as I struggled to arrange the song myself in a way that I could play it. My arrangement is simple but sometimes I prefer simple over the kitchen sink. Of course, I am no plumber and couldn't fix a kitchen sink if I had to......Dan

I wish I could help, but all I can offer is encouragement. I do think I can articulate how I go about it, which is simple: I start with sound - 'singing' (in my head) first a note or two of melody, then a bass note, and then identifying (i) the type and (ii) the function of the chord I'm hearing, and also the role of the melody in relation to that chord (by degree or tension).

I think this is a skill, which (in all honestly) I've developed not through work but through its opposite - either 'play' or, perhaps, laziness. (As an aside, I'll add that I'm all for delayed gratification but I see zero value in being hard on oneself - especially when it comes to making music.)

Knowledge - via information - is easily available. It seems funny to me, but I think that's the part that takes sacrifice and work.

If I can help, please ask.

[lawson-stone]

I don't savvy. I didn't mean you. I meant this number is too complex for anyone who doesn't have enough musical understanding under their belt. It's a complex piece with not only the chordal structure but the slippery keys it goes in and out of. And if jazz, all the secondary Doms and such it needs. I was never saying you or anyone should not play and not continue learning. I just mean this particular choice is very very complicated from the get go. if one is not intermediate or advanced on guitar this is not a good choice to grapple with at this stage..."Gina", as sung by Johnny Mathis, would be a good choice as it utilizes a common musical structure, easier to understand, and the melodic range is not wide. Dat's all....

Thanks. Other than the OP, there were only 3 or 4 of us who really processed this with Dan. Two of us worked up arrangements we thought he could use and made videos, and so naturally when you said "the OP and a few others are trying to deal with the difficult harmonic language of this one. It's one smart composition. In my view they're digging too deep compared to their present level" it sounded like you were castigating us for trying to think through the dynamics of a song that was, in fact, over our heads.

I do disagree about the song being too sophisticated for a beginner. Yes, it's unusual. That Dan can work it out--in the end he created and notated his own arrangement--is pretty impressive. He is a self-described beginner, and yet he worked it out, notated it, and shared it. Good for him. Think about all the folks who come on here, talk big, but never put anything out there.

But I do accept your explanation and thank you for the clarification. I look forward to profitable conversations in the future.

[lawson-stone]

I wish I could help, but all I can offer is encouragement. I do think I can articulate how I go about it, which is simple: I start with sound - 'singing' (in my head) first a note or two of melody, then a bass note, and then identifying (i) the type and (ii) the function of the chord I'm hearing, and also the role of the melody in relation to that chord (by degree or tension).

I think this is a skill, which (in all honestly) I've developed not through work but through its opposite - either 'play' or, perhaps, laziness. (As an aside, I'll add that I'm all for delayed gratification but I see zero value in being hard on oneself - especially when it comes to making music.)

Knowledge - via information - is easily available. It seems funny to me, but I think that's the part that takes sacrifice and work.

If I can help, please ask.

By contrast, I will say frankly that I have only modest actual talent, and have developed whatever ability I have in music by dint of consistent, hard work. I do love it, it has been a labor of love over the 61 years of my life. I don't ever recall not playing around with guitars. I do recall for much of that time pretty much emptying rooms with guitars!

I have had to study, work, practice, and develop disciplines, and I know I'm not professional grade by a long shot, but that hard work has brought me to a spot where I deeply enjoy playing, others seem to like what I do, and local union players still have nothing to fear from me!

Destiny has a gift in addition to music: he has a gift of encouragement. For those who have to work at this, someone out there like him, who can be an intelligent, informed and respected encourager is a great gift!

[destinytot]

By contrast, I will say frankly that I have only modest actual talent, and have developed whatever ability I have in music by dint of consistent, hard work. I do love it, it has been a labor of love over the 61 years of my life. I don't ever recall not playing around with guitars. I do recall for much of that time pretty much emptying rooms with guitars!

I have had to study, work, practice, and develop disciplines, and I know I'm not professional grade by a long shot, but that hard work has brought me to a spot where I deeply enjoy playing, others seem to like what I do, and local union players still have nothing to fear from me!

Destiny has a gift in addition to music: he has a gift of encouragement. For those who have to work at this, someone out there like him, who can be an intelligent, informed and respected encourager is a great gift!

Thanks, Lawson.

I do value Effort over Talent - and I believe in cultivating what's been called 'growth mindset':

But I value Time more. I'm a pragmatist - and also a committed amateur (in the sense of 'one who loves').

The Tortoise and the Hare.

[lawson-stone]

Thanks, Lawson.

I do value Effort over Talent - and I believe in cultivating what's been called 'growth mindset':

But I value Time more. I'm a pragmatist - and also a committed amateur (in the sense of 'one who loves').

The Tortoise and the Hare.

Actually I dearly love that word "amateur." I put it right up there with "devotee."

I hope in some way everything I do, even my work, has the element of the amateur about it, in a manner of speaking.

[MarkInLA]

As it says it's improvised and that what you need to do because there is not sheet music.

Hi. I accidentally entered my reply to you (2/24 8:14) , instead of in 'reply with quote', like this....