Dominant 7#9 chord voicings

[vhollund]

I always found this chord very limited in terms of options
I guess it has to contain the M3rd with the #9 on top to be what it says or...?

Are there ways to treat it differently
Alt dosent cut it
It more a like a penta sound in my ears
Whats your take ?

[wolflen]

the common form(Hendrix chord) with E in the base..note the three other notes form a Bb13 ( Ab D G ) so it could be seen as a Bb13b5 (E in bass)--which opens up some nice tri-tone options..the triton scale E F G# Bb B D (E7b5) and of course (Bb7b5) Bb B D E F Ab

and within those scales you have E7 and ( B dim D dim F dim Ab dim) and their implied 7b9 chords - now think symmetrically..try G7 Bb7 Db7(and the b9s) runs over the 7#9-- this will add some spice to an ordinary 7#9 chord

have fun

[jordanklemons]

I've been toying with really bulking up my harmonic (and melodic) vocabulary lately using upper structure triads within my chords. I find they add something to my chords that's hard to define...but in general just sound richer, fuller, and more pianistic. I've been thinking of the 7#9 chord as a Dominant 7 chord with a major triad built on the b3rd. So for instance if it's in C, it's a C7 with an Eb major triad on top (the Eb being the b3rd of C).

Thinking of it that way helped me find a new voicing for it....

C7
x13.14.12.11.11

There's no root note in this chord. Just the 3rd, 7th, and then the Eb triad.

As far as soloing...I tend to use three different approaches depending on context and what I'm going for.

First is this triad approach. I like to use the Eb triad since it's got the 5th, 7th, and #9...all solid note...plus the sound of the major triad is just so strong and carries such clarity. But I usually like to add a 4th note so it doesn't sound too simple and caged in. In this case, I often add the b2 of that triad...the E natural. This spices up the triad juuuuust a bit. It's also the 3rd degree of the chord, so it mixes really well.

The other two approaches are just to use the minor pentatonic scale (when I'm going for that bluesy soulful sound). I often here the 7#9 as almost just a substitute for a minor chord here. It's rougher and more 'scruffy' sounding...but very similar. Then when I want a more altered sound, I generally go for the half-whole diminished scale. But usually my ear doesn't go there over a 7#9 chord. Sometimes...but more rarely. That's just my approach

[EddieLastra]

In some instances I like using this rootless dom7#9 voicing:


C7#9

X
8 - 5th
8 - #9
8 - b7th
7 - 3rd
X

You could actually add the root note on the 6th string, but I prefer it without. Note that the #9 is on the 3rd string. Over this I usually play the melodic minor a whole step below, in this case a Bb melodic minor. A W/H diminished scale built off the b7th would also work, but I don't use that one too often.

[jordanklemons]

Eddie...do you find that using that scale gives more of a C7sus quality more than a straight C7? Seems like the notes in this scale lend themselves more to an altered sus chord...like a C13susb9 or something. No? You don't find that? With the lack of the major 3rd, and the natural 4 in its place instead?

[jordanklemons]

Also...great voicing. The diminished Major 7...one of my favorites! Aaaaaaand...another voicing you get from the upper structure triad approach...because again, there's that good ole' Eb Major triad on the 2-4 strings, with the 3rd and the 7th on the 4th and 5th strings. These things just sound so great. Hard to beat them in my ear!

[EddieLastra]

Eddie...do you find that using that scale gives more of a C7sus quality more than a straight C7? Seems like the notes in this scale lend themselves more to an altered sus chord...like a C13susb9 or something. No? You don't find that? With the lack of the major 3rd, and the natural 4 in its place instead?

Jordan,
Yes, theoretically you're right, but I often go against theory if my ear thinks it fits the musical context I can get the major 3rd in there if I go with the W/H diminished or depending on the circumstance I might end up playing both melodic minor and diminished scales/arpeggios back to back just to play around with the tonal colors, that's where the fun of it all is, to me at least

[EddieLastra]

Also...great voicing. The diminished Major 7...one of my favorites! Aaaaaaand...another voicing you get from the upper structure triad approach...because again, there's that good ole' Eb Major triad on the 2-4 strings, with the 3rd and the 7th on the 4th and 5th strings. These things just sound so great. Hard to beat them in my ear!

And similar to a diminished chord you can move that voicing up and down the neck in minor 3rds to get some interesting tonal effects

[bako]

Inverting 1 3 b7 9 while maintaining the root yields:

1 3 b7 #9 ..... 1 3 #9 b7 ..... 1 b7 #9 3 ..... 1 b7 3 #9 ..... 1 #9 3 b7 ..... 1 #9 b7 3

#6 I'll have to hang with and see if my comfort with the b9 Eb to E sound evolves.

Swapping the root to the upper voice:

3 b7 #9 1 ..... 3 #9 b7 1..... b7 #9 3 1 ..... b7 3 #9 1 ..... #9 3 b7 1 ..... #9 b7 3 1

#4 begins to sound good high up the neck, muddy down lower.
#5 is cool but hard to play, maybe possible high up the neck, with practice.
#6 sounds more like a C/Eb polychord than a dominant sound.

I'll post some fingerings for these Sunday night after my gig responsibilities subside
and perhaps continue my odyssey of making a manageable size universe careen
out of control with endless detail.

Ted Greene's "Chord Chemistry" has an excellent list of 7#9 voicings (but not all of them).

[matt.guitarteacher]

Noticed this thread is under chord melody. Did you have a specific tune in mind? I think context informs a lot with CM.

7#9's are often indicated to acknowledge a specific melody note using the #9, or specific harmonic implications about tritone subs etc.

For example, you can get away with "adding" just about any melody note to a chord which is already ringing. If you've ever played piano, with chords in left-hand and melody in the right, you'll understand this really well. You can get away with just about anything.

If you analyze it and decide that the sharp nine is basically to accommodate ONE melody note, you can somewhat disregard the sharp nine in terms of chord movement. Just throw the melody note on top, over the previous ringing chord, as an add-on, when you get to it. You can think more in terms of what chord movement you would play if you were comping for example.

Just my amateur approach. Excellent posts by all.

[vhollund]

Hello and thanks for all the inspiring inputs. Completely unexpected !
There are definitely some stuff to check out
I haven't completely grasped the part with the dim maj 7
How does it substitude 7#9
As some kind of hybrid ?

The song I'm working on is Maxine by Steely Dan which has the melody landing on the #9 but there are ofcourse other songs with the same occurence

I still have to try all but I'll update the post with my observations on how the approaches works in the song context

So far the major triad from b3 works in the song with M3 in bass
Or b7 if M3 is also present

Tritone sub 13#11 is nice for adding adding voices,
But it does change the sound of the melody too much if the #11 is not in bass
It permitted me to find out that a +5 will substitude build from root

Harmonized minor penta works good too but as a solo/fill thing with some blue notes
As chord i find the M3 is missing what makes it dominant

Excellent responses here
Thanks !

[vhollund]

Also...great voicing. The diminished Major 7...one of my favorites! Aaaaaaand...another voicing you get from the upper structure triad approach...because again, there's that good ole' Eb Major triad on the 2-4 strings, with the 3rd and the 7th on the 4th and 5th strings. These things just sound so great. Hard to beat them in my ear!

Ok i got it
Yes very nice for sure

[jordanklemons]

Figured out the voicing V? Nice! As Eddie pointed out, you can move that shape up and down minor 3rds (3 frets at a time in either direction)...however just be aware (and this is to anyone who's still working to wrap their minds, fingers, and ears around this stuff) that as soon as you do that you're actually not working with a 7#9 chord anymore. It works, and can sound really hip...but it's effectively generalizing that chord and in place creating a diminished sound. Both because all the notes of each of the four voicings generated exist inside the diminished scale and simply because moving anything symmetrically in minor 3rds is such a powerful sound and will sort of hijack the tonality of what you're playing and turn it in diminished. Even if what you're playing has no relation to the diminished scale...our ears can't help but go there when we hear it being cycled in minor 3rds.

It is a great effect and well worth exploring...but again, just be aware that it is leaving the 7#9 chord behind. If you do this with a C7#9, you would get four different chords...analyzing each by the same root (since the bass player is probably going to be playing the C note) we get

C7#9
C7b9b5 (or #11b9)
C713b9
C(addb9)

They all work within the tonality of the diminished, but it's not getting specific within the 7#9 tonality. Here's a few little 3 note voicings you can try that will create some movement. Just a little thing I wrote up using the upper structure triad + 1 extra note (in this case, the major third of the chord). I put it in E so you can let the open 6th string ring out and hear the voicings against the root note. But when you're playing with a bass player, the root will be taken care of. The four chords here (against an E7#9) are

F#dim (with D in the bass)
a basic G Major triad
a sort of rootless Bb13 chord (like was talked about earlier in the thread...b7, 3, 13)
and a cluster that's sort of nameless but has the 3rd, 5th, and #9

These can be used as voicings for comping if you want to create some movement (without leaving the 7#9 tonality), they can be used to harmonize different melody notes against a 7#9 in a chord melody (improvised or arranged), and they can also be arpeggiated and moved through to create some really cool and very angular single note ideas when soloing over the 7#9. Just some different ideas that, similar to what Eddie was talking about, will create movement, but are pretty specific to JUST the 7#9 tonality. Hope I uploaded this right. Still working on figuring this site out! hahahaE7#9 Ideas.pdf

[wolflen]

another trick to 7#9 chords place a 13b9(no root) one fret higher - before the 7#9

F B E G#/8999 (basically an E/F you can start that a minor 3rd higher or lower)..it lessens the diminished feel but keeps the implied harmony ..you can throw some of your chord tricks into it also to make a bit more interesting

additional variations can be G Bb Db E triads/7th chords and their alterations .. yes its coming from symmetric harmony thinking..diminished/augmented scales..using a I - V (G - D Bb - F Db - Ab E - B) mix and match some of these along with the 13b9 trick and some of your chord tricks...and you have quite an collection to toys to play with

some of this I found from Steely Dan players and Jim Hall..yeah who knew..

fusion players use this kind of stuff all over the place the use of simple partial chords and their inversions in mini progressions that provide melodic movement and harmonic interest

[bako]

Some fingerings for chords I listed in my previous post.

1 3 b7 #9

5 4 5 5 X X ..... X 5 4 5 6 X ..... X X 5 4 6 6

1 3 #9 b7

8 7 X 8 X 6 ..... X 3 2 X 4 6

1 b7 #9 3

8 X 8 8 5 X ..... X 8 X 8 9 5

1 b7 3 #9

8 X 8 9 X 11

1 #9 3 b7

8 X X 8 5 6

1 #9 b7 3

8 X X 8 11 12 ..... X X 10 8 11 12

3 b7 #9 1

7 8 8 X 8 X ..... X 7 8 8 X 8

3 #9 b7 1

12 X 13 15 13 X ..... X 12 X 13 16 13 (arpeggiated)

b7 #9 3 1

X X 8 8 5 8

b7 3 #9 1

11 12 X 13 X 13

#9 3 b7 1

15 X X 13 15 12 ..... X X 17 13 15 12

#9 b7 3 1

8 10 11 X 10 X ..... X 8 10 11 X 10

[bako]

JakeAcci of this site referred me to a dangerous internet tool that compiles permutations of whatever info you input.
I have engaged with creating permutations for a long time but the tool makes it so effortless that I find
myself indulging this behavior with greater frequency. Although there is high likelihood of uncovering
new voicings, the results range from useful to less useful but interesting to non functional in relation
to the original intent. The game is mechanical in nature and is perhaps akin to studying the
dictionary in search of useful words.

I input four 4 note structures derived from 1 3 5 b7 #9.
The last 2 are more incomplete than the others with one omitting the 3rd and the other the b7.
In my opinion they are still worthy of consideration.
As in the examples above, you will notice that some chords will be hard to impossible to play as solid chords.
Some will obscure/disrupt the harmonic function originally intended.


1 3 b7 #9 (no 5th)

1 3 b7 #9
1 3 #9 b7
1 b7 3 #9
1 b7 #9 3
1 #9 3 b7
1 #9 b7 3
3 1 b7 #9
3 1 #9 b7
3 b7 1 #9
3 b7 #9 1
3 #9 1 b7
3 #9 b7 1
b7 1 3 #9
b7 1 #9 3
b7 3 1 #9
b7 3 #9 1
b7 #9 1 3
b7 #9 3 1
#9 1 3 b7
#9 1 b7 3
#9 3 1 b7
#9 3 b7 1
#9 b7 1 3
#9 b7 3 1


3 5 b7 #9 (no root)

3 5 b7 #9
3 5 #9 b7
3 b7 5 #9
3 b7 #9 5
3 #9 5 b7
3 #9 b7 5
5 3 b7 #9
5 3 #9 b7
5 b7 3 #9
5 b7 #9 3
5 #9 3 b7
5 #9 b7 3
b7 3 5 #9
b7 3 #9 5
b7 5 3 #9
b7 5 #9 3
b7 #9 3 5
b7 #9 5 3
#9 3 5 b7
#9 3 b7 5
#9 5 3 b7
#9 5 b7 3
#9 b7 3 5
#9 b7 5 3

1 5 b7 #9 (no 3rd)

1 5 b7 #9
1 5 #9 b7
1 b7 5 #9
1 b7 #9 5
1 #9 5 b7
1 #9 b7 5
5 1 b7 #9
5 1 #9 b7
5 b7 1 #9
5 b7 #9 1
5 #9 1 b7
5 #9 b7 1
b7 1 5 #9
b7 1 #9 5
b7 5 1 #9
b7 5 #9 1
b7 #9 1 5
b7 #9 5 1
#9 1 5 b7
#9 1 b7 5
#9 5 1 b7
#9 5 b7 1
#9 b7 1 5
#9 b7 5 1

1 3 5 #9 (no b7)

1 3 5 #9
1 3 #9 5
1 5 3 #9
1 5 #9 3
1 #9 3 5
1 #9 5 3
3 1 5 #9
3 1 #9 5
3 5 1 #9
3 5 #9 1
3 #9 1 5
3 #9 5 1
5 1 3 #9
5 1 #9 3
5 3 1 #9
5 3 #9 1
5 #9 1 3
5 #9 3 1
#9 1 3 5
#9 1 5 3
#9 3 1 5
#9 3 5 1
#9 5 1 3
#9 5 3 1

To say nothing of 7#9 chords with variegated 5ths, 9ths, #11, 13ths.

[vhollund]

Good stuff

@bako
15# Some really cool ideas/voicings there ! Thanx

16# Yes i know many use this
It would be a more usable tool, i find, if it could translate into more executable voicings by itself though
But that's just me
....
If we were looking for 7 notes to represent the sound...

C7#9 probably derives from
Gb mixolydian #11 from Db mel minor

But it doesn't sound like melodic minor

I guess the essential 7#9 chord's sound lies in the M7 interval between the M3 and the m3,
with a b7 inbetween, prefered over the +5 (alt)
And not as much in the given tonal material
So its more like quartial harmony and penta-stuff based on intervallic sound...although...
Once the melody is struck on #9, i found that all my Gb7#11 /mixolydian material fall nicely in place

Meaning that if the melody falls on 1 the rest of the time open for it

[matt.guitarteacher]

Good stuff

@bako
Yes i know many use this
It would be a more usable tool if it could translate into more executable voicings though


....
If we were looking for 7 notes to represent the sound...

C7#9 probably derives from
Gb mixolydian #11 from Db mel minor

But it doesn't sound like melodic minor

I guess the essential 7#9 chord's sound lies in the M7 interval between the M3 and the m3,
with a b7 inbetween, prefered over the +5 (alt)
And not as much in the given tonal material
So its more like quartial harmony and penta-stuff based on intervallic sound...

More simply, it often sounds like just harmonized blues melody too my Mississippi ears, but I'm an amateur as well.

Great thread btw.

[vhollund]

Yes you could say that minor against major and penta is that and play it like that
If you take F minor penta and sub the 1 with the M7 (e), then that pretty much covers it

Add b and gb and we have all our Gb7 / mixolydian #11 vocabulairy at our disposal

Things fall into place
add all the voicings (#15!) and subs proposed here to vocabulairy... yes ! great.

[vhollund]

Studying the Ted Greene voicings i stumbled upon this absolutely wonderfull 7#9 voicing I have to share with you guys

Em7
x
8
7
9
7
x

E7#5#9

x
8
7
10
11
x

A13

x
10
11
11
10
x

A13b9

x
10
10
11
10
x

D6/9

x
10
9
9
9
10

Ain't it just great when the it fits the ergonomics of the instrument like that ?